Need help with pH ASAP

[BrewinSoldier]

Hey guys! I have my Mash water going in the grainfather as we speak heating up the temp. I plugged all my numbers in bru'n water and it said I needed to add 1.9 milliliters of lactic acid in the mash water. When I did that it brought my PH down to 3.5. I dumped it out and only added 1 milliliter of lactic acid and it is now at 3.7. Do I need to dump it out again and go get more water from the RO machine? Is bru'n water giving me false numbers?

This is just the mash water..Haven't added the grains yet.

 

[jrodmfish]

Are you measuring with a meter? Is it calibrated? The numbers from the spreadsheet are estimates that will usually get you in the ballpark assuming your input data is accurate.

You can add a little at a time until you get in range, but with your readings being that low with that little lactic acid, I'd guess that your readings are incorrect.

 

[behindthetimes]

Bru'n Water is calculating your acid addition to keep the pH of the actual mash in range, NOT your mash water. The pH of the mash water is relatively inconsequential.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Are you measuring with a meter? Is it calibrated? The numbers from the spreadsheet are estimates that will usually get you in the ballpark assuming your input data is accurate.

You can add a little at a time until you get in range, but with your readings being that low with that little lactic acid, I'd guess that your readings are incorrect.

Yes this is with a mettler Toledo ph meter that is calibrated. I usually take pH readings about 10 mins into the mash so maybe that's what is throwing me off. I've been using Bru n water for quite a while now and haven't had any problems yet.

Bru'n Water is calculating your acid addition to keep the pH of the actual mash in range, NOT your mash water. The pH of the mash water is relatively inconsequential.

So should the pH go up once I add the grains?

 

[behindthetimes]

Yes the pH of the solution (the entire mash) will rise significantly once you add the grains.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Lately I have been getting both the sparge water and mash water pH down to 5.5 in both, just by adding small amounts at a time until I get them there. Then I use Bru n water for mineral additions.

I haven't used the Bru n water pH calculations in a while but decided to start trying it using all of Martin's calculations again.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Thanks for the help guys..After adding the grains, the pH went up to 5.67 so I freaked out over nothing..Good to know in the future going forward though. I went ahead and added the other .9ml and will check again to see if I reach my target of 5.37pH.

 

[sky4meplease]

Yes the pH of the solution (the entire mash) will rise significantly once you add the grains.

Weird doughing in always drives my PH down.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Weird doughing in always drives my PH down.

Yeah the only problem I had was trying to adjust pH during the mash. I started by adding 1ml of lactic during the very start before heating the mash water. Then heated and doughed in..pH was 5.67

Then added another .9ml of lactic and gave it about 10 minutes. It only brought it down to 5.59 pH.

Then added another .4ml and waited. Only brought it to 5.53.

Then added .6ml..Again 5.48

Then added .4ml and it stayed at 5.47 so I said screw it and let it go.

Didn't treat sparge water since Bru n water didn't tell me to. After my boil the pH was 5.58. doesn't the pH drop by the time fermentation gets done though?

 

[behindthetimes]

The yeast will attempt to drop the pH to its own liking. The grains drive the pH upwards due to direct effect but even more so due to its buffering effect (resistance to change in pH). The buffering effect is what your RO water did NOT have, and it's what you're working against when adding acid directly to the mash. That's why you're seeing the pH needle not moving much when adding acid directly to the mash. At a certain point, your acid additions would overcome the buffering effect that the grains provide, at which point even small additions would move the pH down dramatically, as it does when you add it to RO water. When you enter your source water (RO is essentially the same as distilled, zeros across the board and pH of 7), and your grist info into Bru'n Water, it accounts for all of this, and tells you what amount of acid to add to your strike water in order to keep your mash pH in range.

Darker grains tend to be more acidic. The grist for a dark beer like a porter, stout or CDA will tend to counteract its own buffering effect and keep the pH down or even drive it down. The grist for a light beer like an IPA or light lager will drive the pH upwards.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

The yeast will attempt to drop the pH to its own liking. The grains drive the pH upwards due to direct effect but even more so due to its buffering effect (resistance to change in pH). The buffering effect is what your RO water did NOT have, and it's what you're working against when adding acid directly to the mash. That's why you're seeing the pH needle not moving much when adding acid directly to the mash. At a certain point, your acid additions would overcome the buffering effect that the grains provide, at which point even small additions would move the pH down dramatically, as it does when you add it to RO water. When you enter your source water (RO is essentially the same as distilled, zeros across the board and pH of 7), and your grist info into Bru'n Water, it accounts for all of this, and tells you what amount of acid to add to your strike water in order to keep your mash pH in range.

Darker grains tend to be more acidic. The grist for a dark beer like a porter, stout or CDA will tend to counteract its own buffering effect and keep the pH down or even drive it down. The grist for a light beer like an IPA or light lager will drive the pH upwards.

Great info and thank you!

So now I'm wondering, if I had added the whole 1.9ml into the mash water that Bru n water had calculated while I was starting my day, I wonder if it would've ended up at the 5.37 it predicted?

Also, I can't be sure now that I think about it, but when starting with RO water, does Bru n water ever ask you to add acid to the sparge? I can't recall it ever asking me to do that.

Also, I did test my RO water after I got it home and it had 14ppm TDS and pH was 6.5 before adding any minerals or acids.

I don't know where my head was at this brew. All over the place apparently. I pumped the wort into my fermenter at the end. The grainfather doesn't do a very good job of cooling the wort down for me since the flow is always very weak after adding hops straight to the kettle(I don't like hop bags or spiders as I've found you get no where near the aroma or flavor using them). Then I oxygenated for 60 seconds and dumped my yeast, forgetting to finish chilling down to pitching temp in the conical first, so temp was at 89° still when I pitched the yeast...Doh...
With the glycol it chilled down to 65 in a matter of about 20-25 mins but hopefully I didn't shock and kill the yeast.

Experimental batch..lol

 

[behindthetimes]

"if I had added the whole 1.9ml into the mash water that Bru n water had calculated while I was starting my day, I wonder if it would've ended up at the 5.37 it predicted?"

That's the idea. Although from the additions and measurements you listed in the previous post, it seems like something might have been off a bit, leaving your mash pH a bit high. Hard to speculate, since I don't use Bru'n Water (I use a different tool for this). Things that could throw that off: water volumes not input correctly, acid strength (15%, 50%, etc) not input correctly, grist info not input correctly.

"when starting with RO water, does Bru n water ever ask you to add acid to the sparge?"

I don't use Bru'n Water, but the tool I use often has me acidifying the sparge water for light colored beer styles. Never for darker beers. In fact, for dark beer styles, I often need to work to raise the mash pH, not lower it.

"I did test my RO water after I got it home and it had 14ppm TDS and pH was 6.5 before adding any minerals or acids".

Sounds right. 14ppm in this scenario can just be zeroed out. With water that pure, I'd expect the pH to fluctuate between 6-7, depending on just how softly and tenderly you speak to it while measuring.

Sounds like a fun brew session, I'm sure it'll turn out fine.