Need Help Improving Efficiency

[Powers]

I've been keeping tabs on my efficiencies over my last several batches. Using a range of calculations, from my own to various calculators, I consistently get between 58% - 65% per batch. I'm looking to replace my SS braided hose in my mash tun, so I thought this would be a good time to seek out some advice on how to improve my practices and/or equipment.

Setup: I use a 10 gallon drink cooler with a SS braided hose that sort that runs along the sides and middle in the bottom of the cooler. Basically, it's a square shape (to match the cooler bottom) with two lines running back down the middle to the spigot. I like the SS braided hose, mostly because I've never had any problems with a mash sticking.

Sparge: After the mash, I drain the wort into the kettle until it runs dry. Then I start up a ghetto sparge operation, which may be where I need to improve. I fill my bottling bucket with 180 degree water and then use a hose to hand sprinkle the water over the mash. This usually only raises the mash to 160 degrees. Once the water reaches a level about 1" over the grain bed, I give it a stir and open the valve to the kettle. This runs until dry. Then I repeat once more until I collect 6.5 gallons in the kettle.

Other than those procedures, I get my grains crushed from the store, and the crush always seems pretty good.

Any help would be much appreciated!

 

[Nateo]

I got about 10% better efficiency after I bought my own grain mill, instead of using the mill at the LHBS. I got an additional 10% bump when I bought a sack milled from a maltster who had a 6-roller mill.

Do you taste your grain after you sparge? If the spent grain tastes sweet, then your crush wasn't great. If the crush was good, it shouldn't taste sweet.

 

[Powers]

i actually did munch on a little grain yesterday after i brewed, and there was a touch of residual sweetness leftover. not alot, but definitely a little sweet.

 

[wildwest450]

Other than those procedures, I get my grains crushed from the store, and the crush always seems pretty good.

Any help would be much appreciated!

#1 cause of low efficiency, buy a mill, or just live with it. A double batch sparge may get you a few more points. But grain crush is so important.


_

 

[azscoob]

I agree completely on both the double batch sparge and on buying your own mill.

Low efficiency can also be attributed to leaving wort behind in ther cooler, or in lines etc, that is gravity points left behind.

I am a mash tun tipper, and I double batch sparge, letting 10 minutes go between sparge water addition, and draining, I stir the crap out of it also right after adding the water. those methods combined with malt conditioning and using my own mill to crush very fine have put me into consistant 88-89% efficiency.

 

[carrotmalt]

Crush is a huge factor, but I'd also recommend the double batch sparge. Run off main mash, then split the rest of your water in two. Add half and stir quite a bit. Wait 10 minutes to settle, then run that off. Then do the same with the other half. I've consistently gotten 75-80+% eff with this method.

I also pour the first quart of run-off from each stage into a jar and then back onto mash for clarity.

Good luck.

 

[azscoob]

I also pour the first quart of run-off from each stage into a jar and then back onto mash for clarity.

Good luck.

Yes, if you don't vorlauf, I would recommend doing that. I vorlauf into a 1/2 gallon pitcher and fill it completely, my runnings are clear enough to read a paper through, and I never turn the valve wide open, I open it up enough to keep the runnings clear, if I open it up too far I get grain bits in my kettle.

 

[pkeeler]

Setup: I use a 10 gallon drink cooler with a SS braided hose that sort that runs along the sides and middle in the bottom of the cooler. Basically, it's a square shape (to match the cooler bottom) with two lines running back down the middle to the spigot. I like the SS braided hose, mostly because I've never had any problems with a mash sticking.

You call it a SS hose, but what you describe is a manifold. Either way it will work, but certain types of sparging will be better for you.

Sparge: After the mash, I drain the wort into the kettle until it runs dry. Then I start up a ghetto sparge operation, which may be where I need to improve. I fill my bottling bucket with 180 degree water and then use a hose to hand sprinkle the water over the mash. This usually only raises the mash to 160 degrees. Once the water reaches a level about 1" over the grain bed, I give it a stir and open the valve to the kettle. This runs until dry. Then I repeat once more until I collect 6.5 gallons in the kettle.

I don't know what you are trying to do here. You start as if you are batch sparging, then change into some kind of hybrid fly sparge. Heat your sparge water while you are mashing. Drain your tun, then pour all your sparge water in. Vorlauf, and drain (you don't need to let it soak for 10 minutes, it does nothing). With your tun, you should batch sparge.

See where that takes your efficiency. There are other areas dealing with pH and crush that you can also explore. But you have to get the process correct or you will be all over the map and unable to tell what changes worked and what didn't.

 

[carrotmalt]

Vorlauf, and drain (you don't need to let it soak for 10 minutes, it does nothing).

If I run off right after stirring, I get a ton of bits and pieces in my kettle. The 10 minutes isn't a soak as much as it is a settling of the grain. Letting it settle back down seems to filter a bit better. Otherwise vorlauf takes forever to clear. Just my take.

 

[Powers]

i had read many-a-forum post about the differences between fly and batch sparging, but didn't take much away.

i guess i was attempting to do a double batch sparge, but i definitely wasn't letting it soak for 10 minutes as recommended above (but not recommended by pkeeler). i will take into account the discord on soaking, but it seems like a beneficial idea to soak the grains--at least longer than i've allowed in the past (e.g. absolutely no soaking after stirring). the vorlauf concept is something i'll have to read up on, i've generally ignored the word when i crossed it in the past. sometimes you have to wait until the time is right to expand your practices. now seems to be the time.

and yes i spoke of the SS hose referring to the type of manifold i'm using. i'll likely just replace and maybe try to improve the pattern slightly.

should i be trying to raise the temp of the grain bed higher? or is 180 degree sparge water too hot? what should i be focusing on here?

 

[pkeeler]

If I run off right after stirring, I get a ton of bits and pieces in my kettle. The 10 minutes isn't a soak as much as it is a settling of the grain. Letting it settle back down seems to filter a bit better. Otherwise vorlauf takes forever to clear. Just my take.

Sorry, I should have read the beginning of my own post. Different lautering set ups have different sparge needs. With the braid I use, my second vorlauf actually clears in a cup or two, even after stirring. But I could see with a manifold or whatever your point. It is certainly more fun to wait 10 minutes (or get your hops ready or whatever) than to vorlauf for 10 minutes. ;-)

 

[pkeeler]

i guess i was attempting to do a double batch sparge, but i definitely wasn't letting it soak for 10 minutes as recommended above (but not recommended by pkeeler). i will take into account the discord on soaking, but it seems like a beneficial idea to soak the grains--at least longer than i've allowed in the past

Let me try and clarify what I'm talking about with the 10 minute wait. During the mash, all the sugar was made available (or you didn't do it long enough, 60 min should do it everytime though). Sparging is just rinsing the sugar into the kettle. Holding it for 10 min. is not going to rinse anymore and there is nothing left to extract. However, as I was reminded, different set ups have different needs. Letting the grain settle for 10 minutes could be beneficial for certain set ups. It is a technicality, but letting the grain bed settle is not the same as soaking the grains.

Raising the temp of your sparge water will probably only lead to tannin extraction. Like i said, brew a few beers with a classic batch sparge (or fly sparge if you want to try it). Get the process down. I bet your efficiency will jump. If you are still not happy, then come back and work on other things.

 

[TheMan]

If I run off right after stirring, I get a ton of bits and pieces in my kettle. The 10 minutes isn't a soak as much as it is a settling of the grain. Letting it settle back down seems to filter a bit better. Otherwise vorlauf takes forever to clear. Just my take.

I vorlauf about a gallon from each sparge and it becomes crystal clear, obviously your system is different. I used to do the 10 minute wait and then realized it wasn't needed if you vorlauf enough volume.

 

[azscoob]

I vorlauf about a gallon from each sparge and it becomes crystal clear, obviously your system is different. I used to do the 10 minute wait and then realized it wasn't needed if you vorlauf enough volume.

So instead of waiting before vorlaufing, you just take the same amount of time actively vorlaufing? I would rather wait and vorlauf just a couple quarts. But thats just me, the lazy brewer

 

[carrotmalt]

Well, maybe "forever to clear" is really a gallon or so later. Next time I'll try again w/o the 10 minute settling and see how it goes.

To the OP. Don't let this 10 minute talk throw you. It really has little/nothing to do with increasing your efficiency.

 

[Powers]

so i started this thread to improve efficiency, but so far i'm most excited about vorlaufing for the first time. unfortunately, that only helps to improve my clarity

in a nutshell, here's what i'm planning based on the comments. finish the mash and pull about 2 liters of the first runnings to pour back over the grain bed, then drain the clear runnings into the kettle. then add sparge water and stir. vorlauf, then wait 10 minutes before opening the spigot to the kettle. then repeat this process once more. i have to wait on the maltmill, funds are tight

any thoughts on the temp of the sparge water? or should i focus on raising the grain bed to a certain temp?

 

[Powers]

To the OP. Don't let this 10 minute talk throw you. It really has little/nothing to do with increasing your efficiency.

your comment came in while i was responding, and you'll see that i sensed the change in winds from my above post

 

[carrotmalt]

any thoughts on the temp of the sparge water?

I just add 170-175 sparge water. Could probably go higher, but I'm not sure what the magic number is where you start extracting tannins etc. that you don't want. 180 maybe?

 

[azscoob]

I'm just going to toss this thought out there, and I may be completely wrong but here it goes: your grain has X amount of sugar in it, you mash at a given temp to break down the complex sugars and bring them into suspension, now you mash at like 1.3 or 1.5 to 1 or whatever, you now have water that has some of the sugar dissolved into it, since things tend to reach equilibrium naturally, the water will only be able to absorb so much sugar until it needs to be drained and fresh water added so that more sugar may be "washed" from it, I would not think that this is spontaneous, that some time is needed to further extract the sugar from the grain. I'm willing to experiment this though, I will do two separate 5 gallon batches using the same grain bill, and the same equipment, I get consistent efficiency of 87-88% doing a double batch sparge and waiting 10 minutes after stirring in the sparge additions, I will do one that way and one with no wait time between additions and vorlaufing, I will vorlauf until clear and monitor the time it takes to get there, I will boil at the same rate and to the same level, I will then check overall efficiency and see if there is a difference to be had, it may be that my rest that I feel extracts more sugar is the same amount of time spent vorlaufing. so it may come out the same, or it may not, but I think this is worth looking into.

It may be just a "how you get there" type thing.

 

[Powers]

experimentation is always strongly encouraged if you're willing!

i always thought that the 60 minute mash, when done properly, converted all the sugar. the test strips used to check the converted sugars tend to confirm this. but then when you drain, some of that good sticky wort is going to stick to the grains as it passes through. so you need to sparge to wash it out. i never thought sparging to be for actually extracting more sugar, or converting more starch to sugar. i just thought it was a way to thoroughly rinse the sugars extracted during the mash.

 

[azscoob]

I am pretty sure that no more conversion is done, I just cant grasp that all of the sugar is wrung out of the grain in the 60 minutes and it is all in the water or sticking to the outside of the grains, the grains are like sponges, and some dissolved sugar is still in the crushed grain, thats why I brought up equalibrium, the grain can't release more of the sugars than the water can hold. and extracting the sugar isnt instant, it has to take some time to get flushed from the grains by the fresh water, like a tea bag, it just needs a bit of time to get the most out of it.

 

[Powers]

that makes sense. what's the opposite of a brine?

 

[azscoob]

I would think that mashing would be the opposite of brining because your goal is to move from high concentrations in the grains to the low levels in the water, instead of high concentrations in the water to the low level in the turkey or whatever. but the same concept for both.

 

[LarryC]

I'm a rookie compared to most of you and Saturday was my first all grain batch. Like the OP I have a drink cooler type MLT and a 10" braided SS hose attached to my valve. I did a 60 minute mash with 3 3/4 gallons of water (1.25/lb) and my first runnings only netted about 1 1/2 gallons of wert. Because my cooler is a 5 gallon model I had to do 3 batch sparges to get my full volume of wert (7 gallons pr the recipe).

My brewing on the cheap equipment with this process yielded 78% efficiency.

IMHO, the OP needed to rinse more of the sugars from the grain - a better sparge no matter which method he selected.

 

[pkeeler]

in a nutshell, here's what i'm planning based on the comments. finish the mash and pull about 2 liters of the first runnings to pour back over the grain bed, then drain the clear runnings into the kettle. then add sparge water and stir. vorlauf, then wait 10 minutes before opening the spigot to the kettle. then repeat this process once more. i have to wait on the maltmill, funds are tight

If you are going to wait 10 minutes, then vorlauf after the wait.

 

[pkeeler]

I'm just going to toss this thought out there, and I may be completely wrong but here it goes: your grain has X amount of sugar in it, you mash at a given temp to break down the complex sugars and bring them into suspension, now you mash at like 1.3 or 1.5 to 1 or whatever, you now have water that has some of the sugar dissolved into it, since things tend to reach equilibrium naturally, the water will only be able to absorb so much sugar until it needs to be drained and fresh water added so that more sugar may be "washed" from it, I would not think that this is spontaneous, that some time is needed to further extract the sugar from the grain.

Mead makers completely dissolve sugar to levels far beyond the biggest Imperial Stout first runnings. Wine easily can hold 1.130 SG. So, the mash water is just not saturated. All the sugar is in solution. Pour a cup of sugar in a gallon of water. Stir until it dissolves. Now pick the sugar crystals out with a tweezer ;-)

No, not all the sugar is extracted, the curve is parabolic though. 95% is probably extracted at 30 min. at 152 deg. At 60 min, you are at 98.5% or so. At 10 hours, 99.3% (made that number up, but the charts go to infinity and never reach 100%). At that end of the curve, 10 min is going to do nothing.

I'm willing to experiment this though, I will do two separate 5 gallon batches using the same grain bill, and the same equipment, [snip], it may be that my rest that I feel extracts more sugar is the same amount of time spent vorlaufing. so it may come out the same, or it may not, but I think this is worth looking into.

Not sure you would have to go through all that trouble. Why couldn't you add the sparge water. Vorlauf. Then simply take the SG of your runnings. Then wait 10 minutes, draw off another sample, and take the SG.?

 

[Powers]

If you are going to wait 10 minutes, then vorlauf after the wait.

duly noted

 

[Powers]

Not sure you would have to go through all that trouble. Why couldn't you add the sparge water. Vorlauf. Then simply take the SG of your runnings. Then wait 10 minutes, draw off another sample, and take the SG.?

that seems like it would do it.

this discussion gives me some new techniques to work with that hopefully will get my efficiency on the up and up. i appreciate all the help and can't wait to get to the next batch!

 

[azscoob]

Mead makers completely dissolve sugar to levels far beyond the biggest Imperial Stout first runnings. Wine easily can hold 1.130 SG. So, the mash water is just not saturated. All the sugar is in solution. Pour a cup of sugar in a gallon of water. Stir until it dissolves. Now pick the sugar crystals out with a tweezer ;-)

you missed my point, the water cannot pull more sugar from the grain because there is a point when the sugar level in the water matches the level in the grain, not that the water cannot hold more sugar.

 

[Powers]

have you had a chance to experiment azscoob? i made a batch over the weekend, but (dammit) forgot to wait 10 minutes after stirring in the sparge additions. and, unfortunately, my efficiency was about 58-60% once again even with my newly designed manifold

EDIT: I was so excited to try the vorlaufing that I forgot to wait. a busy month apparently allowed me to forget the finer points of this thread *sigh*

 

[azscoob]

I was in the same boat as you, I brewed 10 gallons on mild and completely forgot to do some experimentation.

 

[Powers]

i'll try to make the mental note stick better this time. but i probably won't brew until early April as my keg and carboy pipeline is pretty full. problems i can live with

 

[bigbeergeek]

I always get 89% efficiency with my barley crusher, 5.2 mash buffer, mash-out, fly sparge, and as little wort left in the tun as necessary.

 

[Powers]

don't have my own crusher unfortunately, so i have to rely on the crush i get from midwest supplies or rebel brewer, or my LHBS