Need help! Control Panel build for one pump and one 5500w element

[doug293cz]

Im just trying to figure out how I would actually make the inside mount work externally and I cant think of any way... Im really curious though... I found a good deal on a in box large heat sink and a ssr for less than 20 bucks...Do you absolutely need a fan with these internal mounted Sinks? I can't imagine these things getting so hot they fry especially if you reach your desired temperature fast so you aren't running them wide open... Anyone using these in box without a fan and having issues?

It might be possible to run an internal heatsink without a fan, but I wouldn't do it. SSR's can dissipate up to about 35W when in conducting mode. I once had a 15W soldering iron, and it could get up to about 440˚F! In a plastic box I wouldn't do it without air inlet and exhaust openings in the box, the fan sealed over the air inlet, and blowing directly over the heatsink fins.

Brew on

 

[Honda88]

This has been an adventure and a Pain at the same time. I'm now second guessing my BK design that I had spike custom build for me.. I am upset because my element is higher than I wanted it to be. When I designed the kettle I thought my measurements were all from the bottom of the kettle and not the lip of the kettle. So all my stuff was welded on 1" higher or lower than I thought it was going to be. I'm getting towards frustrated territory.

Anyways...I guess ill just pay the money and get the big sink Ill keep going until its done.....FML.... I should have just got a grainfather...

 

[BrunDog]

It might be possible to run an internal heatsink without a fan, but I wouldn't do it. SSR's can dissipate up to about 35W when in conducting mode. I once had a 15W soldering iron, and it could get up to about 440˚F! In a plastic box I wouldn't do it without air inlet and exhaust openings in the box, the fan sealed over the air inlet, and blowing directly over the heatsink fins.



Brew on

Lots of power concentrated to one point will create a high temperature. This isn't really applicable here, and Doug knows it!

The key is getting the 35W transferred to the ambient air. A solo HS in a plastic box may not work, but if you put some vent holes top and bottom so the hot air can rise out and the replacement air flow in, it should be fine. I think you can do it without a fan.

Keep going - the resources are here and you can build your system, the way you like it... not an exact clone of someone else's. If you are unhappy with your kettle, talk to Spike. They are good people and may be willing to help.

 

[Honda88]

Thanks, I will try to talk to spike. Its so hard to design a kettle without actually seeing the product before you punch the holes. I always think of taking measurements from the bottom of something and not an inch off the ground but I guess everyone thinks differently. My element is higher than I would like it but it will probably be okay....it just wasn't what I had in mind

 

[BrunDog]

What was the delta, the tri-clad bottom? That's probably not that thick.

Even with an inch you should be fine, unless you are trying to do really small batches.

 

[Honda88]

its 2 inches up from where the tri clad ends. So its 3 inches from the actual bottom of the vessel. Takes 2.5 gallons to cover the element. Its not super high but its a bit too high for comfort. I was under the impression it would be a couple inches from the actual bottom. I wasn't considering the tri-clad as second piece when I was designing everything. I would much rather it take a gallon to cover it than more just because you really want these elements to be plenty submerged. I'm not concerned about the boiling process because I will have over 6 gallons in the pot while that is going...its just the mashing process that can vary quite a bit and it be nice to have that peace of mind knowing that if you fill the tun up too much you wont smoke the element or start carmalizing wort. As insurance I suppose I could just mash larger batches....I could do 6 gallon batches instead of 5....This might help keep the BK level up during mashing and make me feel better about the whole thing.....I'm extremely anal when it comes to stuff like this...I guess its my fault for not asking more questions before ordering....

 

[BrunDog]

Oh, I didn't realize this is BIAB. Are you using a FB?

 

[augiedoggy]

Sorry if I missed it but why are you using a triclad bottomed kettle with an electric element? did you already have it?

 

[Honda88]

Its not a BIAB its a 2 vessel K RIMS. Its a spike brewing build and all the vessels have tri-clad bottoms. Its not going to be a big deal. The element is just a bit higher than what I wanted but I don't think its going to matter much. I wanted welded kettles and I don't think that I could have gotten the same quality for a cheaper price. I could have done the build cheaper but it wouldn't have had welded fittings. Do no that spike uses the tri clad bottoms for their herms system as well. They probably do this so they don't have to change their manufacturing process.

 

[Honda88]

Here's a couple of designs that use the newer EZBoils (DSPR120 and DSPR300.) The first is a very simple design (same as used by @highland_brewer in the video he linked. This one uses the DSPR120 and a heavy duty wall "light" switch to enable power to the element. With this design the EZBoil is powered whenever the control panel is plugged in.

View attachment 395665

The second uses a more elegant design, and provides interlocking so that the main power cannot be turned on unless both the pump switch(es) and element switch are off. This one uses the DSPR300, which has a couple of alarm relays that are not in the DSPR120. Other than the alarm wiring both EZBoils are wired the same way.

View attachment 395666

If you have any questions, just ask.

Brew on

Doug, In regards to the first drawing. Wouldn't it be easier to just put a switch on the DC current going to the SSR from the PID????

 

[BrunDog]

The tri-clad does give the kettle some nice heft. The downside is they can't do bottom drain fittings.

 

[Honda88]

The idea behind that is that the trub sits on the bottom of the tri clad so after you whirlpool you suck off the side of the kettle and don't pick up lots of hops. Its also nice if you are using propane burners.

 

[doug293cz]

Doug, In regards to the first drawing. Wouldn't it be easier to just put a switch on the DC current going to the SSR from the PID????

Short answer: No.

Longer explanation: For a positive disconnect in a 240V system you need to switch off both hot lines. The SSR only switches one of the hot lines, so when it is off, you still have 120 volt potential on the element, just no current (and no power) flowing. Also, SSR's tend to fail in the "ON" mode, and when this happens, turning off the control signal to the SSR does not shut off current flow.

If you don't understand these concepts, then you don't have the knowledge to safely modify other's designs (other than making equivalent component substitutions.) (Note: I don't mean to imply that YOU don't understand. The comment is made for the benefit of the wider forum readership.)

Brew on

 

[Honda88]

I'm not offended at all. I really like the drawing. I am not an expert in A/C circuits. Why doesn't the element fire at 110v with the switch turned on??...it seems like you would have one hot and one ground going to the element with the switch on. I must not be understanding how the switch works because to me it seems like the minute you flip the switch to on you would have 110v going to the element.

 

[Honda88]

Nevermind, I just figured it out...the current has to flow in a loop between both hots....I'm still not sure how this all works but I know its true lol.

 

[doug293cz]

Nevermind, I just figured it out...the current has to flow in a loop between both hots....I'm still not sure how this all works but I know its true lol.

Yes, it's all about the flow in the loop. The ground conductors are not (supposed to be) in the loop. They are just for safety, and not intended to carry current, except in a fault scenario. With 240V the loop consists of the two hot wires (which are 180˚ out of phase with each other) and the load. Current flows in one direction in one hot, and flows in the opposite direction in the other hot, and direction switches back and forth 60 times a second. You can shut off current flow in the loop by breaking the loop anywhere. But, breaking the loop doesn't mean you don't still have voltage in (at least some of) the wires and the load. In 120V systems, the loop goes from hot thru neutral. The neutral is referred to as the return current path, even though current flows in both directions in both the hot and the neutral. With 120V systems, good practice (and code) says switching should always be in the hot line, not the neutral. For 240V systems you can switch the load on and off (break the loop) with either hot line, but you should also have a mechanical disconnect which interrupts both hot lines as close to the power source as possible.

Brew on

 

[Honda88]

Yes, it all made sense once I realized that the element was acting as a resistor and the hot line was part of the loop in the load. I will probably set my controller up similar to the drawing but I am thinking about having a dedicated 110v instead of running a leg off so I can easily hook up to a 3 wire receptacle if need be. Id like to do it the way that you have but I don't own a home and I'm not sure where life will take me next.

 

[kj9tonne]

Yes, it's all about the flow in the loop. The ground conductors are not (supposed to be) in the loop. They are just for safety, and not intended to carry current, except in a fault scenario. With 240V the loop consists of the two hot wires (which are 180˚ out of phase with each other) and the load. Current flows in one direction in one hot, and flows in the opposite direction in the other hot, and direction switches back and forth 60 times a second. You can shut off current flow in the loop by breaking the loop anywhere. But, breaking the loop doesn't mean you don't still have voltage in (at least some of) the wires and the load. In 120V systems, the loop goes from hot thru neutral. The neutral is referred to as the return current path, even though current flows in both directions in both the hot and the neutral. With 120V systems, good practice (and code) says switching should always be in the hot line, not the neutral. For 240V systems you can switch the load on and off (break the loop) with either hot line, but you should also have a mechanical disconnect which interrupts both hot lines as close to the power source as possible.

Brew on

Doug - does anyone have some good pictures using your single element, 2 pump w/ Interlock design?

 

[doug293cz]

Doug - does anyone have some good pictures using your single element, 2 pump w/ Interlock design?

Sorry, but I really don't know. I have no way of tracking who actually does builds using my designs.

Brew on

 

[Pat Gilleran]

Here's a couple of designs that use the newer EZBoils (DSPR120 and DSPR300.) The first is a very simple design (same as used by @highland_brewer in the video he linked. This one uses the DSPR120 and a heavy duty wall "light" switch to enable power to the element. With this design the EZBoil is powered whenever the control panel is plugged in.

View attachment 395665

The second uses a more elegant design, and provides interlocking so that the main power cannot be turned on unless both the pump switch(es) and element switch are off. This one uses the DSPR300, which has a couple of alarm relays that are not in the DSPR120. Other than the alarm wiring both EZBoils are wired the same way.

View attachment 395666

If you have any questions, just ask.

Brew on

I know this was a while ago but I am attempting to wire the one with the DSPR300. However as soon as I plug the panel box in the PID comes on. Any ideas why this may be happening to mine? I went over your design and my wiring and all seem to match. Is the PID drawing power from the NC terminal on the pump/element jumper?

 

[doug293cz]

I know this was a while ago but I am attempting to wire the one with the DSPR300. However as soon as I plug the panel box in the PID comes on. Any ideas why this may be happening to mine? I went over your design and my wiring and all seem to match. Is the PID drawing power from the NC terminal on the pump/element jumper?

The design you are using is supposed to operate that way. An EZBoil draws less than 0.05A, and direct plugging that small of a load is not an issue. Having the EZBoil light up when plugged in gives you an indication that the panel is plugged in and receiving power.

It is possible to modify the design so that the EZBoil does not power up until the main power switch is turned on. I have other designs waiting, so it will be a few days before I can get to this.

Brew on