NEED HELP/ADVICE on Glycol System

[gmanw54]

Hi all, hopefully this is the correct place for this thread but i'm looking for help with my setup. Here is a little bit about it.

I have a 2 spout glycol tap on the bar with a truck line (something like this: http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/glycol-cooling/glycol-trunkline/bf_1441.shtml ) running ~40 feet back to a normal refrigerator with a freezer on top.

I have the beer delivery system planned and purchased ( 2 corny kegs, 1 sanke keg w/ quick connect, co2, etc) but i need help with pumping the glycol through the lines.

I'm wondering how I can hook up the pump to the trunk lines and what kind of reservoir i can use for the glycol itself. Should the reservoir be stored in the freezer or fridge part? I was thinking of just coiling a bunch of copper and filling it with the glycol. Would that be ok? Any help would be excellent!!

i've attached pics of the pump somebody gave me. it was from a friend of a friend that said it was used in a beer delivery system but i'm not sure of the details other than that.

Thanks!

 

[gmanw54]

anybody? i'm hoping to start implementing this soon. thanks

 

[u81doughboy]

That pump looks like a bit of an overkill unless you have a large head issue to overcome. I built my own glycol system based on research on this board. My head is about 9 ft and I'm accomplishing it with a little dc submersible pump and reservoir inside my keezer. The keezer is in the basement and I'm lifting to a bar on the 1st floor. This is the pump I'm using:
https://www.amazon.com/DC-12V-Brushless-Centrifugal-Submersible/dp/B00C6XNB50/ref=lp_6681951011_1_1?srs=6681951011&ie=UTF8&qid=1492653570&sr=8-1
My setup may be a little down and dirty and not a "true" glycol cooling system, but it works great and keeps my 6-tap system cool enough.

 

[gmanw54]

That pump looks like a bit of an overkill unless you have a large head issue to overcome. I built my own glycol system based on research on this board. My head is about 9 ft and I'm accomplishing it with a little dc submersible pump and reservoir inside my keezer. The keezer is in the basement and I'm lifting to a bar on the 1st floor. This is the pump I'm using:
https://www.amazon.com/DC-12V-Brushless-Centrifugal-Submersible/dp/B00C6XNB50/ref=lp_6681951011_1_1?srs=6681951011&ie=UTF8&qid=1492653570&sr=8-1
My setup may be a little down and dirty and not a "true" glycol cooling system, but it works great and keeps my 6-tap system cool enough.

Thanks doughboy!

One question: what did you use for the reservoir and did you submerse the pump in the glycol? guess that's two questions

 

[u81doughboy]

I have a bucket inside the keezer that the pump is submersed in with the glycol solution. If I had a picture I'd post it. As i said, it's a down and dirty, but simple solution. I don't worry about getting the glycol to below 32*, (I keep it at keezer temp) the beer coming out of my taps is plenty cold enough for me. One other thing I did was to put the pump on a timer that cycles every few hours for an hour or so. My theory is that I don't need to run the pump continuously and that also keeps it from producing too much heat.

 

[bajaedition]

I can think of 5 reasons not to use a glycol system for a keezer for every 1 to use it. It is a very inefficient way to cool a keezer. But if you want to use it. Or need to use it, I will give you some advice.
First, how are you going to dissipate the cold air into the keezer, will it be by coil and fan or chill plates the kegs sit on? I just want to know the heat transfer capacity so we know how fast the glycol needs to be moved. Second what type of heat transfer unit are we going to use to chill the glycol? Is it going be a coil, immersed in the glycol, fan on a tub of glycol. Or what. How much loss do you predict in the 80 feet of line coming from and return to the heat exchange unit? Third. What is the total BTU load you expect in the keezer and what is the BTU capacity of the chilling unit you have?

Remember, we have to exchange cold for heat at least twice with a glycol unit if not 4 times, so we need to make it as efficient as can to make it cost effective. The benefit of a glycol system is not efficiency, it is for other reasons the benefit of having the cooling system, such as a meat counter that uses chilling plates so there is no moving air and doubling the shelf life of the meat.

The resisters for the temperature probes should be internal to the kegs, is that possible? Having a set of coils made up and running around the glycol storage tank inside the refrigerator and disconnecting the coils supplying cold to the unit would also up efficiency tremendously. We then could use the refrigerator as an insulated box. most efficient way I can see of using this system would be to use flexible jackets with glycol lines in them to wrap the kegs, in that way heat exchange would be the highest. It would also use the box with a heat exchanger in it instead of a unit supplying cold air to cool a drum of ethanol glycol. I think you can see the benefit in that.

Running beer 40 feet and keeping it cool with glycol from a 5 gallon corney? is that the goal, or to cool the beer coming out of a keg sitting below the bar? why not just cool the keg?

 

[bajaedition]

ps, the motor size is fine, you are going need some HP to do this correct.

 

[lewis26]

He mentioned a freezer and fridge, so I am assuming he is chilling the beer already. This is for delivery only.

 

[bajaedition]

How big of a refer? Because to fit 2 corners, a sanke and a reservoir big enough for the glycol he will have to be a huge unit.

 

[u81doughboy]

I think you may have misunderstood what I said. I am not using a the glycol to cool the keezer. I'm keeping the glycol in a sump inside the keezer. The keezer is a standard chest freezer-converted and is keeping around 38*. The glycol is only for keeping the tap supply lines cool. Does this clarify things for you?

 

[jddevinn]

FYI, if you haven't already thought of it... at 40' of line you are going to have to push with a CO2 Nitrogen "beer gas" mixture to avoid over carbonating the beer.

 

[ajdelange]

That pump is a high pressure gear pump and is intended for cleaning beer lines - not circulating glycol for which you want a fractional HP motor that delivers a few GPM at heads of 10' or less.

But you will be very happy to have that pump when it comes time to clean lines. The thing with the strainer goes in a bucket of warm cleaner and the other hose to the beer circuits (which you put in series with jumpers and bullets) and the return from the series circuit goes back to the bucket. You regulate the pressure (and thus flow) by opening/closing the bypass valve.

 

[bajaedition]

I think you may have misunderstood what I said. I am not using a the glycol to cool the keezer. I'm keeping the glycol in a sump inside the keezer. The keezer is a standard chest freezer-converted and is keeping around 38*. The glycol is only for keeping the tap supply lines cool. Does this clarify things for you?

I understand your setup Doughboy, and it is one that makes sense.
It is the OP I am referring to. He mentions a few things that worry me about his idea.

He has a normal refer/freezer

this unit is 40 feet from the bar with the glycol tower

He has 2 cornies and a sanke to distribute beer.

Does he want to store the beer under the bar?
does he want to store it in the refer/freezer?
Is the glycol to cool the trunk line and the tower?
Or is it to cool the beer also?
Will he actually be trying to store beer in teh trunk and keep it cool?
Or does he expect to have the beer flowing enough for fresh beer to be in the 40 foot trunk?

You see, glycol has it advantages, but it swaps out efficiency for those. in a huge way. For that reason we use it in places we need to cool something that a normal refrigeration system would not work, and the trade off is cost effective.

being a 2 corney, one sanke system he is talking less than 25 gallons of beer, that is not a commercial set up. so why does he think a 40 foot trunk will be effective in any way?
Setting a chest refrigerator under the bar with room for the kegs and glycol makes way more sense. I could braze the copper and cut up the pipe and get it running in 4 hours. And not have 40 feet of beer sitting for days on. time

I am just trying to figure this one out, As I see it he is about to spend a ton of money on a system that is going to be unwieldy and wasteful.

 

[bajaedition]

FYI, if you haven't already thought of it... at 40' of line you are going to have to push with a CO2 Nitrogen "beer gas" mixture to avoid over carbonating the beer.

part of what I am thinking about, ther is going to be special equipment cost here. another trade off.
as well as the atmosphere the beer in the trunk will pass though. What is the total BTU load the glycol needs to handle

 

[bajaedition]

That pump is a high pressure gear pump and is intended for cleaning beer lines - not circulating glycol for which you want a fractional HP motor that delivers a few GPM at heads of 10' or less.

But you will be very happy to have that pump when it comes time to clean lines. The thing with the strainer goes in a bucket of warm cleaner and the other hose to the beer circuits (which you put in series with jumpers and bullets) and the return from the series circuit goes back to the bucket. You regulate the pressure (and thus flow) by opening/closing the bypass valve.

what would be the cost to set this up?

 

[ajdelange]

A few feet of beer line. If you want to series the beer lines with the couplers you will need a couple of special barrels for that - check Micromatic. The pump is obviously far and away the most expensive part and you have that.

 

[bajaedition]

I am stepping out of this, I spent 10 years as the electrical director of a supermarket chain. I have set in many meetings for design of glycol systems and know and have discussed every side of the system. This system only has viability if we were a commercial system and pumping a lot of beer. as a home system, it would be best to use the glycol tower directly over a bar refer and eliminate the 40 feet of feed. each time you start pouring you are going be serving 40 feet of sub standard beer. that is a considerable amount out of a 5 gallon brew you slaved over.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes but keep in mind that 40' of beer is only 40*12*2.54*pi*(2.54*3/16)^2/4 =
217.187 cc with a 3/16 line diameter or 40*12*2.54*pi*(2.54*4/16)^2/4 = 386.111 cc with 1/4".

 

[bajaedition]

Yes but keep in mind that 40' of beer is only 40*12*2.54*pi*(2.54*3/16)^2/4 =
217.187 cc with a 3/16 line diameter or 40*12*2.54*pi*(2.54*4/16)^2/4 = 386.111 cc with 1/4".

1/4 inch line times 3 is a forty every day
times 30 is 1200 ozs a month or over 9 gallons