Need help, 6 (7) bad batches in a row (Long)

[JnJ]

I noticed somethink that nobody else (I think) touched on. Perhaps I'm looking at this with a perspective nobody else sees, or perhaps I'm just too new to the hobby to have the same insight as others but...



That sounds a lot to me like a stuck ferment.



Perhaps also a symptom of a stuck ferment?

Anyone else think it may be possible, that cloying sweetness may be the problem?

I don't think they were stuck because when I shook the fermenter to restart, they wouldn't. I believe this was more likely because of the high ferm temp. It didn't taste sweet like an under fermentered beer would.

The one my wife smelled fermented out to 1.013 which is what BS predicted it would. So the oder and smell that was there in the first four, was there in the last 2(3) that did ferment out properly.

 

[JnJ]

Well today is the day. I decided to do the whole 5 gal batch. I am using a glass carboy that I have never used. I filled it with bleach and let it soak for 2 hours. Then I emptied it and scrubbed it and rinsed it. Then I baked it in the oven. I am using a new stopper that I boiled (note: Do not atempt to boil a 3 piece air lock, it will melt ). The air lock and funnel will be soaked in sanitizer as well as the carboy. If this batch turns bad, then it can only be my water or sanitizer.
Wish me luck, I'm going in.

 

[Fingers]

Godspeed, grasshopper.

 

[EdWort]

Good luck this morning! Be sure to wash your hands too!

 

[Beertk]

Didn't see any reference to it. Do you rack to secondary and condition before bottling?

 

[JnJ]

Didn't see any reference to it. Do you rack to secondary and condition before bottling?

I never rack. My primary buckets have spigots and my better bottles are ported with spigots. Some of the bad batches were transfered to secondaries, but some were not. Some went from kettle to bucket never touching anything else.......
Todays brew went uneventfully and it has already started bubbling, though slowly. Fingers crossed.

 

[Yooper]

Well, I think a very real potential source of contamination is the spigot. After you sanitize the primary, that spigot is just hanging out there. Maybe just this time try racking. It might fix your problem.

 

[JnJ]

Well, I think a very real potential source of contamination is the spigot. After you sanitize the primary, that spigot is just hanging out there. Maybe just this time try racking. It might fix your problem.

This time I used a glass carboy, so I will have to rack.
But, I sanitized my spigots and the bad batches were bad in the primary before ever going though a spigot...

 

[rohanski]

John I guess it's just you, me, and the chickens. I baked my carboy at 220 and did the whole thing outside. It's bubbling great but it has a real pungent smell kinda like hydrochloric acid. It's been so long since I have done a kolsh that came out good I don't know if this is the way it's supposed to smell or not. For some reason I get the feeling it's coming from outside.

On a brighter note I cleaned out a spot in the garage so my next brew will be in the garage.

I have forgot to mention, I'm out of beer! This is a state of emergency!

 

[JnJ]

Well the batch is moving well, about 2 inches of foam on top and steady airlock activity. Not to excited so far because the others all started well and smelled fine until the fermentation slows, then the off oder starts. Fingers crossed.
If I continue to have problems I think I'll start doing 3gal AG batches, thats much cheaper than doing PM and I have all the equipment I need for a small batch size like this.

 

[Poindexter]

How odd was your guys weather this year? We had, you probably heard, extreme drought in North Carolina all summer. Talking to a couple friends last weekend on well water, they both commented their water doesn't 'taste' liek it used too.

Driving out west mid-October I remember a lady I think in Oklahoma commenting on how much rain they had had.

So I was wondering if you guys were both on wells in the SA area, but it looks like roahnski is on well water but JnJ is on muni water. And rohanski tried boiling his water and one of you tried bottled water.

I'll keep my eye open for a bug that can survive yeast onslaught and then bloom when the yeast slow down in an alcohol environment. But it would have to survive muni chlorine too, this is real fishy.

Are either of you up for trying campden tablets in your brew water 24 hours before your next brew day?

 

[JnJ]

How odd was your guys weather this year? We had, you probably heard, extreme drought in North Carolina all summer. Talking to a couple friends last weekend on well water, they both commented their water doesn't 'taste' liek it used too.

Driving out west mid-October I remember a lady I think in Oklahoma commenting on how much rain they had had.

So I was wondering if you guys were both on wells in the SA area, but it looks like roahnski is on well water but JnJ is on muni water. And rohanski tried boiling his water and one of you tried bottled water.

I'll keep my eye open for a bug that can survive yeast onslaught and then bloom when the yeast slow down in an alcohol environment. But it would have to survive muni chlorine too, this is real fishy.

Are either of you up for trying campden tablets in your brew water 24 hours before your next brew day?

Ya the weather here has been very wet this year. But I don't think it could have affected the brew unless it's something airborne.
On the current batch, the krousen (SP?) has already fallen and bubbling has slowed to a steady pace. Fingers crossed.

 

[Poindexter]

Ya the weather here has been very wet this year. But I don't think it could have affected the brew unless it's something airborne.
On the current batch, the krousen (SP?) has already fallen and bubbling has slowed to a steady pace. Fingers crossed.

Can you get a sample with out contaminating the rest? My current best hypothesis is a "new" to your area bug the muni plant isn't getting. A spore former that gets activated in the wort boil and then can survive in an alcohol environment. Don't have a name on the tip of my tongue.

If your beer smells, looks, _and_ tastes right today...

 

[kenb]

Can you get a sample with out contaminating the rest? My current best hypothesis is a "new" to your area bug the muni plant isn't getting. A spore former that gets activated in the wort boil and then can survive in an alcohol environment. Don't have a name on the tip of my tongue.

If your beer smells, looks, _and_ tastes right today...

What in the world can survive 60 minutes at 212f?? I have never heard of anything like that?

 

[rohanski]

What in the world can survive 60 minutes at 212f?? I have never heard of anything like that?

My X SWMBO!

 

[Poindexter]

What in the world can survive 60 minutes at 212f?? I have never heard of anything like that?

Not much, but bacterial spores can probably survive bare naked drifting planet to planet via outerspace after say getting launched by a big meteor impact. Some prions maybe, research has come a looong way on those in the last five years.

I was thinking these guys might also make up some wort and not pitch any yeast on it to help ID whatever bug it is growing in it.

 

[Fingers]

My X SWMBO!

Does that mean she's really hot, or she's able to create an ice bubble around herself at will?

Either way, we'll need a pic. Hot chicks are always in vogue and the evil ones are good at hallowe'en. Evil and hot are best. Nodameen?

 

[rohanski]

As poindexter said in the previous post she came from outer space. Now she is infecting my beer.

 

[Poindexter]

We are getting to play Quincy here, so please don't edit your posts. If you think of something tag it on the end.

I am real close to calling up a SA HBS just to ask if anybody else has been having trouble with infections. My HS physics teacher would call it a schtoomper.

 

[JnJ]

Can you get a sample with out contaminating the rest? My current best hypothesis is a "new" to your area bug the muni plant isn't getting. A spore former that gets activated in the wort boil and then can survive in an alcohol environment. Don't have a name on the tip of my tongue.

If your beer smells, looks, _and_ tastes right today...

Dude I'm afraid to F with it. I haven't had a good batch since about Feb/March..

 

[Neomich]

I'm in San Antonio too and I haven't got any infections. I use a combination of bottled drinking water that comes from SA and just plain tap water. I'm also a noob so if infections were likely due to the water, I'm sure I'd be the one to get it.

Just my thoughts from another local.

 

[rohanski]

I'm in San Antonio too and I haven't got any infections. I use a combination of bottled drinking water that comes from SA and just plain tap water. I'm also a noob so if infections were likely due to the water, I'm sure I'd be the one to get it.

When your starting out I would be you have less chance of infection because malt is new to your house. Give a while and you have a better chance. If you have ever had a vegetable garden with tomatoes you can understand why. The first year maybe the second will be OK but eventually you will get tomato worms and nematodes. Where do they come from?

 

[Neomich]

When your starting out I would be you have less chance of infection because malt is new to your house. Give a while and you have a better chance. If you have ever had a vegetable garden with tomatoes you can understand why. The first year maybe the second will be OK but eventually you will get tomato worms and nematodes. Where do they come from?

This is disturbing news. It sounds like a reasonable explanation, at least to me. Are there certain strains of bacteria that specifically target malt?

 

[srm775]

Can you get a sample with out contaminating the rest? My current best hypothesis is a "new" to your area bug the muni plant isn't getting. A spore former that gets activated in the wort boil and then can survive in an alcohol environment. Don't have a name on the tip of my tongue.

If your beer smells, looks, _and_ tastes right today...

If it were a case of some "super" bug going around San Antonio, don't you think that there would be other adverse effects of such a bug. Like people getting sick with strange undocumented symptoms. Or pets, livestock, wildlife or plantlife also showing some signs of this bacteria. Or, other foods spoiling?

Realistically, in all likelihood, this is a problem isolated to the one, possibly two, brewers that are experiencing the problem. And, the problem is either due to an infection (Brettanomyces, Lactobacillus or Pediococcus) or a procedural step that is either being done improperly or omitted altogether.

First, replace all plastic/vinyl hoses and racking canes with new thoroughly sterilized hoses and canes. Carefully clean and sanitize all spigots. If you use an aeration systems. Replace the parts you can, and soak everything in sanitizer. Immersion chiller (though you shouldn't have to) give it a good scrub with dish soap and soak in sanitizer prior to chilling wort. If you're using a kit, purchase it from a different location and brew a fairly easy recipe such as an IPA or APA and DON'T use liquid yeast ... pitch two (one should do it but be safe) packets of Safale-05.

I would suggest eliminating all variables regarding sanitation (brew outside, use spring water, etc.) that you can think of. Elminating one variable at a time will help you to figure out exactly what went/is going wrong, but what good does it do you to know that some spigot wasn't being sanitized and in the course you lost 3 more batches. Elminate everything and establish new procedures. If you eliminate all the variables regarding sanitation then you'll know its something procedural.

 

[Poindexter]

Dude I'm afraid to F with it. I haven't had a good batch since about Feb/March..

OK, when did the rain start in heavy for you guys?

I am looking at genus Clostridium pretty hard right now. 100+ species, wide distribution in soil and GI tracts. Spores commonly airborne. Spores commonly survive @212°F indefinitely at one atmosphere pressure. As obligate anaerobes, spores tend to germinate in oxygen free environment. So they would start really multiplying after your primary ferment is complete.

Do you ever smell rotting stuff at your house when the wind is just right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_botulinum

Here is a reference from 1999 that isn't wikipedia:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/m86545026g0n80l3/

and in case you need a log in:

Sudha Rani1 and G. Seenayya1

(1) Department of Microbiology, Osmania University, Hyderabad-7, India


Abstract Clostridium thermocellum strains SS21 and SS22, producing high yields of ethanol, were tolerant to 4.0 and 5.0% (v/v) ethanol, respectively. This is the highest ethanol tolerance so far reported by wild type strains of C. thermocellum. In the presence of added ethanol, both the strains had extended period of growth arrest. On addition of ethanol at different culture ages increase in ethanol tolerance upto 7.0 and 8.0% (v/v) by strains SS21 and SS22, respectively was observed. The optimum growth temperature for strain SS21 decreased as the concentration of ethanol in the medium increased and remained constant for strain SS22. Both the strains were tolerant to various solvents and acetic acid indicating that high ethanol tolerance of the strains is due to the general solvent tolerance of the organisms.

 

[rohanski]

Wow! Wouldn't this be a deadly poison? If not what would it taste like?

SRM775,
I have done everything you talked about including baking the carboy and boiling all of the water. As I have said my exposure time from boiling to carboy is no more than 10 minutes. I could teach classes on how to transfer it fast. The last batch in the carboy is still going so I don't know if it is good.

 

[srm775]

SRM775,
I have done everything you talked about including baking the carboy and boiling all of the water. As I have said my exposure time from boiling to carboy is no more than 10 minutes. I could teach classes on how to transfer it fast. The last batch in the carboy is still going so I don't know if it is good.

I was primarily talking to JnJ since he started the thread, but you also seem to be experiencing the same problems. Are you using liquid or dry yeast?

Also, you really have to isolate the off taste. Without more of a specific description, it's hard to tell what the problem is. Whether it's bad water, bad yeast, bad ingredients, bad sanitation or bad procedures, there are a dozen steps along the way that could be introducing off flavors. Also, what styles have you been brewing. Perhaps switching to a more forgiving style would be best until you figure it out.

 

[JnJ]

Realistically, in all likelihood, this is a problem isolated to the one, possibly two, brewers that are experiencing the problem. And, the problem is either due to an infection (Brettanomyces, Lactobacillus or Pediococcus) or a procedural step that is either being done improperly or omitted altogether.

Agreed.

First, replace all plastic/vinyl hoses and racking canes with new thoroughly sterilized hoses and canes. Carefully clean and sanitize all spigots. If you use an aeration systems. Replace the parts you can, and soak everything in sanitizer. Immersion chiller (though you shouldn't have to) give it a good scrub with dish soap and soak in sanitizer prior to chilling wort. If you're using a kit, purchase it from a different location and brew a fairly easy recipe such as an IPA or APA and DON'T use liquid yeast ... pitch two (one should do it but be safe) packets of Safale-05.

I have never racked, so no racking cane, the last 3 batches were bad out of the primary meaning they have never touched a hose, cane, or anything else other than the primary. The primary for every bad batch was one of two buckets, expect for the last bad batch that was primaried in a Better Bottle. No aeration system, shake the fermentor. last few batches used bleach and sanitizer and current batch in glass carboy got baked (the carboy, not the batch). I've used kits from AHS, More Beer, and my own recipes from AHS. My bad batches include APAs, Klosh, Hefe, Irish Red, and a Bitter, all with the same taste. I have used liquid yeast and dry, mostly dry.

I would suggest eliminating all variables regarding sanitation (brew outside, use spring water, etc.) that you can think of. Elminating one variable at a time will help you to figure out exactly what went/is going wrong, but what good does it do you to know that some spigot wasn't being sanitized and in the course you lost 3 more batches. Elminate everything and establish new procedures. If you eliminate all the variables regarding sanitation then you'll know its something procedural.

I have come down to either my tap water (which was used in all the good batches prior to this problem), or the plastic fermentors. So my current batch is in a glass carboy which I have never used before. If it turns out bad, then it is the water or a bio agent sent in by the Russians to ruin my beer!!

 

[Beerthoven]

This thread is starting to sound like "28 Days Later".

Diagnosing this stuff over the internet is nearly impossible and invites all kinds of speculation and second-guessing.

I really, really think you guys (rohanski and JnJ) should reach out to some long-time homebrewers in your area and have a face-to-face brew day.

Have someone work with you on all your proceedures (not just sanitation). I bet it will help. Contact a club or LHBS owner to find someone willing to help out.

I really wish you two the best of luck. I hope you can figure this out and get back to homebrewing as its meant to be - fun.

 

[JnJ]

This thread is starting to sound like "28 Days Later".

Diagnosing this stuff over the internet is nearly impossible and invites all kinds of speculation and second-guessing.

I really, really think you guys (rohanski and JnJ) should reach out to some long-time homebrewers in your area and have a face-to-face brew day.

Have someone work with you on all your proceedures (not just sanitation). I bet it will help. Contact a club or LHBS owner to find someone willing to help out.

I really wish you two the best of luck. I hope you can figure this out and get back to homebrewing as its meant to be - fun.

Thanks. I have not posted it here, but I am in contact with a local club and they are trying to help as well.