NEED GUIDANCE: Single Tier "vs" Two Tier Brew Stand

[phendog]

I am finally ready to build a brew stand, but curious about a few things. I welcome all pro “vs” con feedback regarding one/two tier configurations, but these are my specific questions/concerns.

1. In a single tier, I imagine gravity would move wort at the beginning of knock out, but as pressure begins to equalize between the MLT and BK a pump would be necessary to complete. This is my main quandary regarding a 1 or 2 tier platform.

a. Are there any ill effects on wort when using a pump to transfer from MLT to BK,....vice gentle gravity transfer to a BK on a lower tier?
b. If complete starch to sugar conversation has occurred in the MLT, is rate of transfer to the BK even a factor? Or, if to fast will I pick up tannins?

2. In a single tier can you control a gentle fly sparge AND even rate of transfer from MLT to BK using a pump? Don’t think gravity fly sparge would work very well in a single tier configuration.

3. Not exclusive to one or two tiers: But, when pumping wort from the MLT to BK, will the grain bed compact? I’ve had grain beds compact before during mash re-circulation, but thankfully never a stuck mash. For recirc I’ve been told to leave the valve at the bottom of the MLT fully open and throttle it back at the return,... and every variation thereof. I image the correct method would apply for both lautering and mash recirc.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I use a two tier set up. I just use a stainless table for the hlt and the mash tun. I drilled and installed casters on the bottom of my Blichmann burner for the boil kettle. It's nice to be able to roll it around the brewery if needed for cleaning or transfers. This allows a slow gravity feed from my mash while I use the pump to move sparge water.

I use two pumps. One recirculates the water in the HLT around the herms coil and is dedicated to that function. The second one recirculates the wort through the coil and back to the top of the mash. I also use the wort pump to whirlpool and push chilled beer through the plate chiller to the fermentor. Flow rate is controlled by a valve on the pump outlet. I like a nice gentle recirculation of the wort. If you pull to fast you will compact the mash.

When it's time to sparge I use gravity to the boil kettle and I switch the supply lines to the wort pump from the mash tun over to the hlt. . That allows me to run the hot liquor through the coil to clean it while also controlling the sparge water temp.

Gravity will not help you on a single tier set up. You need two pumps. If the bottom of the mash tun is higher than the top of your intended fill level on the boil kettle you do not need a second pump and gravity will do the trick.

You can control a nice even sparge and or transfer with pumps without compacting the bed. You may need a little practice controlling flow rates but it's not really a problem. A good false bottom makes a big difference in my opinion.

It's really about your preference for your available space and if you have the cash for a second pump. Either set up will work nicely.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Are you opposed to BIAB??
One pot,one stand no pumps same beer

 

[phendog]

Are you opposed to BIAB??
One pot,one stand no pumps same beer

Nope, love BIAB!! Two of my best beers were done that way and still use that method when I don't have the time for a traditional all grain day.

Was gifted a 20gal Ss BrewTech Mash Tun for Christmas and have been collecting bits and pieces for a full all grain system over the past year. Just want a table to permanently place everything now.

BIAB will always be in my arsenal though.

 

[dfess1]

Here's my .02. If you're going to lay out the cash to make a brewstand, I'd make it a single tier with two pumps. When I bring mine out, it's a decent amount of time investment(using all 15 gal pots). I routinely knock out 2 brews, as it's only an extra hr onto the process if you time everything out correctly. I run a direct fire RIMS system, so I always need one pump for my MLT. While I'm brewing/chilling the first beer, I've already mashed on my second. Again, if you time it correctly, you can chill your first/clean out your BK by the time you're done with the mash on beer#2. I have even done a partygle beer and pumped back into my HLT and used that as a modified BK at the same time as the first BK was being used, bu that was a complicated brew day...

 

[kh54s10]

I wanted to avoid the cost of pumps when I built my 3 tier. Turkey fryer burner under HLT up top, MT in the middle, BK on SP10 burner on platform high enough to drain into a fermenter. I ran a water line to the HLT so the first time I have to lift anything heavier than the grain is taking the fermenter inside the house.

 

[bajaedition]

I have brewed on and owned quite a few systems, as far as I am concerned the 3 tier is the best option because of it's compact size, however it requires the most plumbing.
I also have to say the HLT on bottom and MT on top was the overall easiest to ever brew on, and that makes a HERMs system easy to plumb, The extreme benefit of staying with a 3 vessel system is the HERMs option, it makes doing step mashes so easy.

I have recently, after 3 decades of brewing, gone back to 5 gallon brews, and started designing a tower for that, it was a HERMs system.
However after going over everything that has been developed for the BIAB system, I have converted it into a 2 vessel BIAB, It uses a HLT for sparging.

The benefit to me was that I saved over 1000 clams setting it up. I can still do step mashes, and dicoction mashes. but I do not need pumps, My expensive kettle is my boil kettle which is one of the ones with all the bells and wistles, but the 4 gallon HLT is a 20 dollar SS pot with a 20 dollar valve installed, how much hot liquor do you need if you only use it to sparge, that saved me over 650 dollars in HLT and MT cost and 150 for a pump, add in the rest of the plumbing and you can see why I did it.

BIAB is not for everyone, you need to mess around with conversion rates and such, but it saves a lot of money in set up. I loved all the time I did a more traditional 3 vessel.

Single level is the easiest, but requires a lot of plumbing. It eliminates a lot of lifting of heavy grins and such. all pots can be accessed from both sides

Two level makes sense, but does not take into the amount of gravity transfer of a 3 level. everything is low like the single level. it can be as big and take up as much room as a single level or save 1/3 the space. Pumps are needed as in the single level

towers are compact, they can have the pot at any angle, they can be used with a pump or without depending on the pot set up, you have heavy loads up high, the top pot can be hard to look into. they need to be well designed not to be tipsy

My concern has always been about space dedicated to it when not in use, which is most of the time. I notice a lot of guys single level systems become storage shelves when not brewing.

those are my pros and cons, hope it helps

 

[beertastic]

...
I have recently, after 3 decades of brewing, gone back to 5 gallon brews, and started designing a tower for that, it was a HERMs system.
However after going over everything that has been developed for the BIAB system, I have converted it into a 2 vessel BIAB, It uses a HLT for sparging.

The benefit to me was that I saved over 1000 clams setting it up. I can still do step mashes, and dicoction mashes. but I do not need pumps, My expensive kettle is my boil kettle which is one of the ones with all the bells and wistles, but the 4 gallon HLT is a 20 dollar SS pot with a 20 dollar valve installed, how much hot liquor do you need if you only use it to sparge, that saved me over 650 dollars in HLT and MT cost and 150 for a pump, add in the rest of the plumbing and you can see why I did it.
...

Sorry to hijack this thread, but you can you tell me a little more about your 2 vessel BIAB setup? I started off with 3 vessel (1 kettle 2 cooler) setup and migrated to 1 kettle BIAB setup, but find it limiting in batch size and efficiency and would like to introduce a HLT/sparge some of the time (but not always).

Are you using a 2 tier setup? How are you sparging your BIAB? Also if you don't mind, how are you step mashing? I worry about scorching the bag, although maybe this is a non-issue in a keggle or tri-clad bottom?

 

[bajaedition]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but you can you tell me a little more about your 2 vessel BIAB setup? I started off with 3 vessel (1 kettle 2 cooler) setup and migrated to 1 kettle BIAB setup, but find it limiting in batch size and efficiency and would like to introduce a HLT/sparge some of the time (but not always).

Are you using a 2 tier setup? How are you sparging your BIAB? Also if you don't mind, how are you step mashing? I worry about scorching the bag, although maybe this is a non-issue in a keggle or tri-clad bottom?

well, first I am doing 5 gallon batches, I have a 8 gallon kettle. One of the more beer 2 opening ones with a spigot and thermo, I took the thermo out and put a SS plug in the top hole, then I sourced a SS steamer basket. I only got a 5 gallon one as I do not do high gravity beers much and if I do I will add some extra light DME

95 percent of my beers are a 1.015ish or lower

I put the bag in the steamer basket, when in the kettle the basket sits on a SS trivet, that is how it is no scorch. Now I can heat the bottom while stirring and have temperature change.

I bought a 4 gallon SS kettle off ebay 20 bucks plus 5 shipping and a weldless sigot, 20 more clams. So for 45 bucks I have a 4 gallon kettle, I went cheap as It is only used once every brew to heat up sparge water.

I then welded up a crane system to lift the basket, that is a work in progress, I am holding it on with a few clams as I finish deciding on some of that build

here is some links to pics click on the pics and they get huge

the stand 90 percent finished with kettles on it, I still need to plum the gas system https://www.flickr.com/photos/131043525@N05/33375115733/in/album-72157680268168432/

the crane system, notice the top kettle has not been assembled yet
https://www.flickr.com/photos/131043525@N05/33375098793/in/album-72157680268168432/

A more middle picture so you can see the crane control, a 20 dollar boat hand winch off ebay https://www.flickr.com/photos/131043525@N05/34055201571/in/album-72157680268168432/

I actually brewed on it Sunday, did a 96, 122 152 170 rest schedule for a American Rye lager OG of 1.042, I was shooting for 1.041. Six row and Rye.

as you can see, I raise the steamer basket by the crane when sparging, so it is just above boil wort level and do the sparge, I am going experiment with 3 smaller bags to do a batch sparge. I also have a old pump and think I may use it to circulate the wort over the bags when raising temps, but then temp control has never been an issue so far, everrything settle down to temp real fast. ( my first mash doing a step mash was a learning experiment but then I fully expected it to be a washout as I learned to hit the rest schedules). I heated up the mash and let it cool a few times to get it down. I think whenever doing a total redesign such as this you will have to accept a break in mash to be just a tosser.

So far I am totally satisfied, if I could get a custom basket made I could do some bigger beers but I only make one of those a year so I accept I will some extract in it. I will weld on the crane beam soon, I am waiting for a few pulleys to come in and will have to cut a little metal to get them to fit.

I also have to fab up some wind shields for the burners, but that is a no brainer. So far have used it indoors. Oh excuse the mess in my workshop please.

hope that helped, back to the OPs thread

 

[chynes077]

I use a two tier set up. I just use a stainless table for the hlt and the mash tun. I drilled and installed casters on the bottom of my Blichmann burner for the boil kettle. It's nice to be able to roll it around the brewery if needed for cleaning or transfers. This allows a slow gravity feed from my mash while I use the pump to move sparge water.

I use two pumps. One recirculates the water in the HLT around the herms coil and is dedicated to that function. The second one recirculates the wort through the coil and back to the top of the mash. I also use the wort pump to whirlpool and push chilled beer through the plate chiller to the fermentor. Flow rate is controlled by a valve on the pump outlet. I like a nice gentle recirculation of the wort. If you pull to fast you will compact the mash.

When it's time to sparge I use gravity to the boil kettle and I switch the supply lines to the wort pump from the mash tun over to the hlt. . That allows me to run the hot liquor through the coil to clean it while also controlling the sparge water temp.

Gravity will not help you on a single tier set up. You need two pumps. If the bottom of the mash tun is higher than the top of your intended fill level on the boil kettle you do not need a second pump and gravity will do the trick.

You can control a nice even sparge and or transfer with pumps without compacting the bed. You may need a little practice controlling flow rates but it's not really a problem. A good false bottom makes a big difference in my opinion.

It's really about your preference for your available space and if you have the cash for a second pump. Either set up will work nicely.

Do you have an pics of your setup? Sounds like exactly what I want to do.