Need answers - 2nd extract brew!

[tomdrumzz69]

Hey all!
I've finished drinking my second extract brew (both IPA/Golden/Blonde ale) now - I have to say I've been really happy with the way both turned out in terms of the fact that neither was cloudy, both had a nice hoppy flavour, and generally I felt that they wouldn't be out of place in my local boozer!

That said, I've have a few queries.

1. My first pressure barrel leaked at the tap, so I bought a new one which had a small hole in the metal part of the lid which started letting air out once I started my 2nd fermentation (my other lid doesn't have a hole in the metal, so it didn't leak, and I used that instead). They shop I bought the new one at, threw in a few CO2 canisters, said I'd need them but didn't say what exactly for. Is that supposed to keep the pressure in by attaching it to the lid?

2. Both brews were 5gallon batches. My first brew used 100g of Amarillo (75g at the boil start, and 25g in the last 15mins). My second used 100g Amarillo, and 100g Nelson Sauvin - same timings as the first brew. Still tasted nice but I felt it was a little too hoppy. That said, I'm not really tasting or smelling anything citrusy/fruity as the hops are characterised by. Am I missing something?

3. Some of my favourite pale ales come from Thornbridge brewery (Jaipur, Kipling, Wild Swan). Having them on tap in particular, you can really taste and smell the fruitiness. Is that all coming from the hops, or are they literally brewing/fermenting with fruit? How can I achieve this in my brews? I brew extract in 5 gallon batches.

4. Generally I feel my brews are lacking depth and a 'fullness' about them... Is the key to more depth, etc. in the hops, malt, or perhaps even the actual brewing process?

Thanks for your help!

 

[kh54s10]

I can't answer the pressure barrel questions. I have never even seen one. They seem to be popular in Europe and not so much in the US.

The first brew had most of the hops going in early for bittering and very little for flavor and aroma. The second one was a lot of hops and should have had good flavor and aroma. What flavor and aroma depends on the type of hop. To get more flavor add some even later in the boil. I often do a hopstand. That is to cool the wort to about 180f, add hops and let them steep for about 15 minutes. You can then add more aroma by doing a dryhop. After fermentation is done add hops for 5-7 days before bottling or kegging.

I am not familiar with any of the beers you listed, but yes, they could be using fruit in the recipe. Or it could all be from the hops.

Keep at it. try different recipes. If your extract brews don't use steeping grains, check into a recipe or kit that does. That should give some extra "depth" to your brew.
Check into your water quality and consider going with all grain brewing.

Most of all have fun with this hobby.

 

[mongoose33]

Don't know about the pressure barrels.

Fruitiness can come from the hops, not adding fruit. Hops added early in the boil (at, say, 60 minutes), will contribute mostly bitterness; the flavor and aroma elements of the hops will be mostly boiled off.

Hops added late in the boil (10 minutes or less remaining) will add much less bitterness than the early hop addition, and since it's not being boiled for a long time, more of the flavor and aroma compounds will be present.

It's hard to say exactly the effect the hops and hop schedule would have on your beer without knowing the Alpha Acid content of those hops (usually, in the US, printed on the packet). But I'm rather amazed that in your second beer you had what looks like 150g of hops going in at 60 minutes. That's over 5 ounces of hops as bittering hops, which is....just wow.

If I wanted a hoppy tasting beer, I would have probably reversed the timing of the hops, depending on the alpha acid content and how much bittering they would supply.

*********

How to improve depth can be from the malt, the amount of malt, any adjuncts (flaked oats as one example), and even how the hops present themselves. It's a little harder nailing this down with extract as it's not clear what you had and whether you had steeping grains, for instance.

*********

I'm going to offer a different view how to proceed and learn. If I were you, knowing what I now know, I'd try to adjust this recipe to your liking. Trying new recipes is nice, but unless you get lucky and hit on a great one, every one will have different characteristics (of course, they're different!).

But you won't be able to nail down changes due to process inconsistencies because if it is inconsistent, changing the recipe too won't allow you to isolate what's causing those changes.

If you like this style, make some adjustments and brew it again. And give us some more specifics on the recipe. I'm still surprised at the hop schedule; as I noted, I'd have expected more flavoring hops than bittering hops. And that might be the next step--fiddle with the hops and/or hop schedule.

But without specifics of what the alpha acids were, it's going to be hard to offer a suggestion as to what to do.

 

[chickypad]

Like the others I don't know those beers, probably not sold in the US, but the fruitiness you are tasting could also be their yeast and fermentation conditions. English strains give off esters which provide some fruitiness. What yeast came with your kit? I'd suggest experimenting with some different yeast strains, you may be getting some generic cheap yeast with your kits. You can also try contacting the brewery to see if they will give you hints about their yeast, or maybe online someone has identified it.

Also I agree with mongoose, that's a huge bittering addition on the second kit, and even the first one would be pretty bitter. So when you say they were too hoppy I think you mean too bitter? English pale ales and IPA's are often lower in bitterness. I think you probably need to choose a better recipe for what you want - guessing here since you didn't post the whole thing. There are a bunch of recipes listed on this site (link on the top bar) or maybe someone has even posted a clone somewhere of one of your favorite beers.

 

[RM-MN]

Pressure barrels are a European thing so I may be totally off base but I think you pressure barrels are intended to have natural carbonation so you keep the beer pressurized from the fermentation and the leakage could be from a release valve to keep it from exploding from the pressure. You'll have to get more info from a European brewer.

The second lid is made to let the pressure escape and then you would carbonate and keep serving pressure from the CO2 cartridges.

Depth and fullness in your beers usually come from the beer maturing. I bottle my beers and leave them at room temperature for at least 3 weeks for that maturing to start. Different beers take different times to mature so your IPA might be done at 3 weeks but a strong stout might need 6 months or more to reach its peak.

If you are willing to try something just a little different with your beers, redo the first one but only use 40 grams of Amarillo at the start of the boil and 10 grams at 10 minutes. Let the beer ferment without pressure in the barrel. At about day 10, open the barrel and dump in the remaining Amarillo hops. Let this set for 7 more days (how is your patience?), then use the CO2 cartridge to pressurize the barrel. After a couple days chilling, try a sample. I think you will like the reduced bitterness and the aroma should be much better. BTW, that extra time in the fermenter counts toward the maturity that I think your beer was lacking.

 

[tomdrumzz69]

The first brew had most of the hops going in early for bittering and very little for flavor and aroma. The second one was a lot of hops and should have had good flavor and aroma. What flavor and aroma depends on the type of hop. To get more flavor add some even later in the boil. I often do a hopstand. That is to cool the wort to about 180f, add hops and let them steep for about 15 minutes. You can then add more aroma by doing a dryhop. After fermentation is done add hops for 5-7 days before bottling or kegging.

If your extract brews don't use steeping grains, check into a recipe or kit that does. That should give some extra "depth" to your brew.
Check into your water quality and consider going with all grain brewing.

Thanks for the response! I think I've mistaken happiness for bitterness! The first beer was a very basic recipe, and though I was happy with the outcome - particularly as a first time, I guess I thought that the lack of flavour in terms of fruitiness, etc. was due to there not being enough hops. So for the next brew I used the same recipe, but changed the spray malt to a light hopped (still wondering what effect that had), and doubled the hops...

I've had a lot of responses suggesting dry hopping. My process is to ferment in the fermenting bucket first, and then syphon into a pressure barrel to ferment for longer (all according to the recipe I used) which has a tap, so I've been pouring pints directly out of it...
If I was to dry hop, should I put them in the pressure barrel? - I imagine as the gas will be released in trying to extract, that the only option is to leave the hops in?

 

[tomdrumzz69]

Fruitiness can come from the hops, not adding fruit. Hops added early in the boil (at, say, 60 minutes), will contribute mostly bitterness; the flavor and aroma elements of the hops will be mostly boiled off.

Hops added late in the boil (10 minutes or less remaining) will add much less bitterness than the early hop addition, and since it's not being boiled for a long time, more of the flavor and aroma compounds will be present.

It's hard to say exactly the effect the hops and hop schedule would have on your beer without knowing the Alpha Acid content of those hops (usually, in the US, printed on the packet). But I'm rather amazed that in your second beer you had what looks like 150g of hops going in at 60 minutes. That's over 5 ounces of hops as bittering hops, which is....just wow.

*********

How to improve depth can be from the malt, the amount of malt, any adjuncts (flaked oats as one example), and even how the hops present themselves. It's a little harder nailing this down with extract as it's not clear what you had and whether you had steeping grains, for instance.

*********

I'm going to offer a different view how to proceed and learn. If I were you, knowing what I now know, I'd try to adjust this recipe to your liking. Trying new recipes is nice, but unless you get lucky and hit on a great one, every one will have different characteristics (of course, they're different!).

But you won't be able to nail down changes due to process inconsistencies because if it is inconsistent, changing the recipe too won't allow you to isolate what's causing those changes.

If you like this style, make some adjustments and brew it again. And give us some more specifics on the recipe. I'm still surprised at the hop schedule; as I noted, I'd have expected more flavoring hops than bittering hops. And that might be the next step--fiddle with the hops and/or hop schedule.

Thanks for all your pointers! You've given me a lot to think about!

I agree that 150g hops for the full 60mins is excessive. I think during my first brew I was thinking that boiling the hops would give off a lot of fruitiness, but obviously it didn't so I thought doubling the amount would help! Obviously it made it a lot more bitter but that was just about it really... Didn't taste any different aside from that. Essentially my first and second brew were the same recipe, etc. - I just added 100g of a different hop and changed the spray malt from light to a hopped one.
The guy that runs my local brew shop has said that for a 5 gallon batch you should only use about 100g in the boil (otherwise it becomes too bitter). Bitterness is effected by the alpha acid % too though, right? The higher the %, the more bitterness it'll give off?
So I've got 2 different hops again for my 3rd brew - Some more Nelson Sauvin (12.07%AA), and the guy recommended Sorachi Ace (14.8%AA) as a replacement for Amarillo as it was out of stock. I've noticed that there's a lot of alpha acid though, so I'm not sure where to go with it. Any suggestions? Someone did respond with a suggestion of 40g (60mins), 10g (10mins), then (I'm assuming by 'the rest' he meant from one 100g pack) 50g after fermenting for 10 days.

Thanks very much for your help!

 

[mongoose33]

Essentially my first and second brew were the same recipe, etc. - I just added 100g of a different hop and changed the spray malt from light to a hopped one.

See the difference? You included a hopped spray malt (whatever that is, I brew AG), but it sounds like you had additional hop presence there.

The guy that runs my local brew shop has said that for a 5 gallon batch you should only use about 100g in the boil (otherwise it becomes too bitter). Bitterness is effected by the alpha acid % too though, right? The higher the %, the more bitterness it'll give off?

I'm thinking you might want to get a different guy to give you advice. There is no way one can make such a blanket statement. 100g of hops means nothing; I have hops that only have about 2.8% alpha acids; I also have some warrior hops which are, IIRC, about 15% alpha acids.

See the difference? The bittering potential is based on the alpha acids, and in no way are different hops the same. You could put 100g of the first in and it may impart a mild bitterness; put 100g of Warrior in and it might take the enamel off your teeth.

So I've got 2 different hops again for my 3rd brew - Some more Nelson Sauvin (12.07%AA), and the guy recommended Sorachi Ace (14.8%AA) as a replacement for Amarillo as it was out of stock. I've noticed that there's a lot of alpha acid though, so I'm not sure where to go with it. Any suggestions? Someone did respond with a suggestion of 40g (60mins), 10g (10mins), then (I'm assuming by 'the rest' he meant from one 100g pack) 50g after fermenting for 10 days.

Thanks very much for your help!

That's not a bad suggestion, IMO, though 10g at 10 mins isn't very much. The last 50g is dry hopped, which will get you flavor and aroma w/ no bitterness. It all depends on what you like. I know people who like bitter beer because it's bitter. I would rather have less bitterness and more flavor/aroma, but that's what *I* like.

So you'll want to think about what you're trying to accomplish; then the hops follow.