Need advice on improving bitterness

[kanzimonson]

A buddy and I recently brewed a killer IPA. I really love it, but I'm currently on a quest to perfect a few beers rather than brew everything under the sun. I'm not completely satisfied with the quality of the bitterness and its relationship to the residual sweetness, so I was hoping to get some input.

It's kind of a mix between Green Flash's West Coast IPA and Tasty's IPA recipe, using the hops I had on hand, a blend of Amarillo and Centennial.

6gal
OG - 1.070
FG - 1.015
IBU - ~75.3

13.75# american two-row
1.25# carapils
.75# crystal 60
.5# crystal 120
.25# flaked barley

Mash at 154.

All hop additions are 50/50 blend of Amarillo/Centennial, averaging to 8.1% AA. I have a spreadsheet that I use to calculate bitterness, using the Rager formula. When I determine the correction factor for high gravity worts, I just estimate what the current gravity is at the time of the addition.

1oz - 60 min (29 IBU)
.5oz - 30 min (11.3 IBU)
1.5oz - 15 min (21.1 IBU)
1oz - 10 min (14 IBU)
1oz - 0 min
2.5oz - dry

Pitched with Wyeast 1272, American Ale 2.

So my biggest problems I'm having with the beer are related to bitterness and sweetness. I wish the bitterness had a sharper flavor to it. There's a decent amount of sweetness to the beer (which I like, in general) but BECAUSE of the sweetness it seems the bitterness needs to have more presence.

You'll see that there are lots of potential reasons, so I'll go through what I know:

1) Are my calculated IBUs correct? I know that none of us can ever really be sure about the correctness of our IBU calculations, so I'll just say that I've been using this exact method of determining IBUs since I started brewing. I feel like I have a good hold of my system, but I haven't done a lot of beer with this much late hopping. However, I did do a barleywine with 87 calculated IBUs that definitely tastes that bitter, so I have reason to believe my system is not to blame.

2) I chose a yeast that is known for lower attenuation as well as a slightly sweeter finish. My attenuation was actually pretty high (78%) but obviously the final gravity of 1.015 explains the sweetness I'm experiencing. Again, it's not like it's syrupy sweet, but it's enough that the bitterness seems subdued.

3) Hop choices? The hop flavor and aroma is freakin intense. I'm sure you can imagine given that these are two very popular hops. It really seems like the Amarillo dominates the aroma while the Centennial rules the flavor. The aroma is bright and citrusy, as if you expect something real tart about to go down your throat. But the flavor is very round, cool, candy-like, and orange-juicy. I almost wonder if I should consider incorporating a piney-tasting hop next time? Something that would really elevate the resinous quality?

4) Water treatment? I haven't gotten to that point where I feel like I've mastered all the other aspects of brewing enough to begin treating my water, but who knows? Maybe I have a great recipe that only needs a little splash of gypsum to sharpen up the bitterness? The only reason I thought of water treatment as a solution to my problem is because people always talk about gypsum elevating the crispness of their bitterness.

I'm going to stop typing before this gets any longer. Hope that's a good place to start.

 

[toman8r]

I've found that I don't get as much bitterness from the late additions as the formulas suggest. How have the hops been stored and how old are they? They lose their bitterness over time, especially when not stored properly.

I just brewed an IPA with all the hops added during the last 25 minutes and it is not as bitter as the formulas say it should be, so I am going to go with a small 60 minute addition to bump up the bitterness. Maybe you should add more at 60?

 

[goose1873]

I've found that I don't get as much bitterness from the late additions as the formulas suggest. How have the hops been stored and how old are they? They lose their bitterness over time, especially when not stored properly.

I just brewed an IPA with all the hops added during the last 25 minutes and it is not as bitter as the formulas say it should be, so I am going to go with a small 60 minute addition to bump up the bitterness. Maybe you should add more at 60?

If you added all the hops in the last 25 min there are no bittering hops and i wouldn't expect very much bitterness at all...just aroma and some mild flavor...

 

[menschmaschine]

How have the hops been stored and how old are they? They lose their bitterness over time, especially when not stored properly.

I have found this to have more of an impact than expected. Even stored vacuum packed and frozen, they lose their bitterness. The Beersmith Hop Age tool has proven effective for me.

 

[Yooper]

If you added all the hops in the last 25 min there are no bittering hops and i wouldn't expect very much bitterness at all...just aroma and some mild flavor...

???? Why not? If you add hops, you'll get bittering. Check out hopbursting to see how it works. You'd use way more hops, but get the bittering (as well as flavor and aroma) from the late additions. Instead of using one ounce at 60 minutes, you might use 4 ounces at 20 minutes. It's a more flavorful type of bittering, but there is definitely bittering there.

To the OP, I would definitely look at water chemistry. Just adding gypsum isn't the answer, though. You'd have to look at the complete water profile. If your water has a low residual alkalinity, you'd get different results than with a high RA, for example. Adding gypsum if your sulfate/chloride ratio is already high won't gain you better flavor. You'd need to know what you already had in your water in order to make sure you improve the flavor.

 

[kanzimonson]

I bought the hops this year, back when there was the big announcement on Hops Direct's new crops. Immediately after receiving them I divided up into various 1, 2, and 4oz bags made by 3M that block UV radiation. I sealed as tightly as possible with a heat sealer, then put all the baggies in the freezer. I guess the downside is they're sealed with air in the bags, but I feel like I've done pretty well with them.

As for water chemistry, I'm thinking of it like I thought of all grain... one day after reading enough, and listening to podcasts, and thinking about it, I finally understood mashing. I'm waiting for that moment with water chemistry as well. I know I could do the calculations and everything, but I feel like there are other process things I could work on.

Definitely bumping up the 60min addition would be my first choice, but I'm surprised there's no takers on diversifying the hop bill...

 

[Yooper]

Definitely bumping up the 60min addition would be my first choice, but I'm surprised there's no takers on diversifying the hop bill...

That's because the hop bill looks fine.......................

You could add simcoe, if you wanted. I LOVE simcoe and amarillo together. I probably wouldn't use the centennial with it, though. I'd probably bitter with centennial, and then do the late hops as a simcoe/amarillo combo.

 

[DirtyMcCurdy]

IMO, with 8% AA bittering hops, you should either bump up the quantity or shift the times around like the other folks suggested.

You might look at doing something like this:

1.5oz @ 60m
1.25oz @ 45m
.5oz @ 30m
.5oz @ 15m
.5oz @ 10m
.5oz @ 5m
2oz dry

The hop addition @ 45m will still impart a lot of bitterness without imparting that grassy flavor that you sometimes get with using lots of bittering hops. The light hopping throughout the rest of the boil + dry hopping will ensure a nice hoppy aroma and flavor.

With this hop schedule, you'll use less hops and get the same bitterness (if not slightly better) out of it. I really think the trick is to add hops @ 45.

 

[Yankeehillbrewer]

A few things I would do is cut back on your usage of Crystal & Carapils,probably no more than a 1/2lb each in this recipe. You could probably drop the Flaked Barley as well when your using carapils. I'd also mash lower, somewhere from 149-151 to help dry it out and will give the Hops less to compete with. I would also use a bittering Hop like Magnum or Chinook, for your 60 minute addition. I personally don't like Centennial as a bittering hop, but that's just my taste bud working against me. You could then move some of the Amarillo & Centennial to 25 & 20 mins. and you could boil for 90 minutes with your bittering addition, but the difference would be negligable.

That my too sense.

 

[kanzimonson]

RE: DirtyMcCurdy's suggestion of changing the hop bill significantly. I should explain that the hop flavor and aroma on this beer is amazing and I don't want to change anything except the bittering. The quantities you're talking would drastically reduce the hop character from what it is. I can see the value of a 45min addition, and might consider moving the 30 up.

I see so many varying opinions on this site about quantities of crystal malt being too much or too little I almost ignore it now. I like a slightly sweeter beer than most, and I like IPAs to have a lot of body, so I think my grain bill is about where I want it. The flaked barley was in hopes of getting a nice rocky head on the beer but I can see how it might not be necessary.

I guess what I'm getting at is I love the grain bill, the body, the sweetness, the hopping, but I need more bitterness, or more perceptible bitterness. I'm looking deeper into my water quality to see if that might yield some clues. I've heard my area has softer water.

 

[Denny]

What's your water like? You may need to increase the sulfate to accentuate the hops. For all my APAs and IPAs, I add some gypsum to the kettle. If your water is soft, you'll need to do the same.

 

[kanzimonson]

I've had some bad experiences trying to get the numbers I need from the local utilities people. I can quickly find a "water report" for my area but it focuses on water quality as it relates to microbes and such. No metals information. I've even called a local information number and they're just as unhelpful. Maybe I'm going about this wrong though.

What's the standard way people get their water reports?

 

[Denny]

I use Ward Labs, and have for years. They're fast, efficient, and inexpensive. Go to www.wardlab.com and get test W-6 for $16.50. They explain the procedure there.

 

[dogbar]

I guess what I'm getting at is I love the grain bill, the body, the sweetness, the hopping, but I need more bitterness, or more perceptible bitterness.

Sound like you should add another half ounce to your 60 min addition and call it a day

 

[humann_brewing]

The easiest way to try and add some sulfate without getting to much into the chemistry is to just put some gypsum in. Put a few grams 5-15g in your next 5 gallon batch.

 

[Denny]

Yep, for years I just added a tsp. of gypsum to all my hoppy beers and it worked great.