Need advice on a pump...

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Dgonza9

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Hey Guys,

Can anyone pm me or point me towards a pump with a metal head?

I need a second pump and with hard plumbing I want a metal head.

Options:

1) $400 SS March pump from morebeer.com (too pricey).

2) March 809 with Bronze head (I'd get it, but the talk about lead in it scares me)

3) Chugger SS pump (out of stock)

I've been chasing down leads on ebay, etc with no luck. So if anyone can vouch for the bronze head as safe or point me towards something reasonable ($200 -$250) I'd really appreciate it. I need to get myself setup again.

Appreciate it. Cheers!:mug:
 
What's the problem with brass? I have a brass or bronze headed center inlet 815 pump from march.

Give it the vinegar peroxide soak and I think it'll be fine. If there is any lead exposure at all it would be minimal. Imagine how much could possibly get into your beer and then think about how much beer you'd have to drink. I think the beer is a bigger heath threat.

Did you ever drink out of a garden hose? I did as a kid all the time and I'm fine. Finishing a ph.d actually, so no brain damage, or not much anyway :p

Edit: by the way, the body will excrete low levels of lead anyway, you just don't want dangerous exposure levels that exceed what your body will cope with naturally.
 
I have a Chugger with the SS head. Works great. If that is out of stock, they offer a plastic version that might suit your needs for now. Then you can replace the head when the SS becomes available.
 
To follow up:

I thought about chugger and would've probably gone that route but they're entirely out of stock (plastic heads too) and I was impatient.

In regards to lead I found the following statement from NSF:
http://www.nsf.org/business/water_distribution/faq.asp

Apparently lead isn't even soluble in low ph water. A solid lead fitting passes the NSF test using ph 5 water (which is darn near the exact ph of wort). The same fitting fails miserably using the ph 10 water. To quote, "PH 10 test water was 71 times more aggressive for lead leaching than the pH 5 test water."

I think concerns about lead leaching from brass are *greatly* overstated in our application. I see many brewers making alarmist statements about brass and copper and these sorts of statements get passed around here as fact.

caveat emptor: I am not a plumber and do not work for the NSF.

Edit:
I found an academic article looking at lead leaching into drinking water.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19847713
I pulled the full article pdf and it's not that helpful as they didn't look at acidic water. But they did note that lead leaching from brass escalates as ph increases (although there's a ceiling to this effect at around a ph of 9). So higher ph does equate to more leaching but this really doesn't confirm or disconfirm the NSFs finding that low ph water is not an aggressive leacher of lead.

Incidentally, they also found that leaching takes time, with lead levels reaching equilibrium at around 24 hours. Being that the wort isn't in contact with the brass for more than a couple hours at most this too should be comforting. And we're talking about brass fittings/pump heads, not brass pipe anyway.

There's also this article (full text is free, it's super short) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1519760/pdf/envhper00373-0042.pdf
They didn't look at ph exactly but looked at the aggressiveness index which is a function of ph and hardness with higher ph and harder water being more aggressive. Conclusion: more aggressive water dissolves more lead into the drinking water.

Here's an Irish article on the subject of plumbosolvency where they say (but do not show) that lead is more readily dissolved in low ph water (i.e. acidic). So I'm not sure.
Rónan Daly, Martin Kimber. "Lead piping and plumbosolvency." Engineers Journal Volume 63, Issue 1: January/February 2009

I'm a social scientist, not a chemist by trade so this is getting a bit out of my element. In particular I expect the solvency of lead in wort is compounded by the fact that it's bound up with other metals in brass. In other words, lead solvency is not the same thing as brass-containing-lead-solvency.

My take away:
1. we excrete trace amounts of lead, it will accumulate but you must have high exposure over prolonged periods of time.
2. lead's effects are most damaging on children. Don't give your kids homebrew :p Duh!
3. we're dealing with small amounts of brass (not brass pipe) that contain small amounts of lead. We're not brewing with lead pipe.
4. the ph of wort is probably not conducive to lead dissolution
5. lead dissolution takes time anyway
6. lead exposure concerns are for drinking water. I hope you're not drinking homebrew like it was water!

There. Feel better?
 
some of it does. some places, like the state of California, have much stricter laws regarding lead content of pipe fittings used in drinking water, so stuff that is sold in these places usually is made without lead. in other places, small amounts of lead is still common in brass fittings.
 
Does modern brass contain lead ? I know it used to back in the old days - but now ?

Yes, it does. Evidently as much as 8% lead. It aids in the machinability of the fitting. Read the NSF link I posted, lots of good info there. My understanding is that the NSF-61 guideline for lead leaching is voluntary - you can have your product certified or not. The percent lead also does not translate into the tendency of that product to leach lead, instead it's a function of machining. So a fitting containing 8% lead may be as bad or even better than one with 4% lead.

All this aside, some states - most notably California - have even stricter restrictions on the quantity of lead allowed in brass fittings. From the NSF website, the fitting is limited to "a weighted average lead content of 0.25 percent. The weighted average is determined by multiplying the lead content of each wetted component times the proportion of the total wetted surface area represented by that component and summing up the results." To satisfy this requirement and be sold in California the fitting must meet NSF standard 61 *annex G* (which I guess is just the regular standard 61 with the added .25% stipulation added). You can read all about it here..
http://www.nsf.org/business/mechanical_plumbing/annexg.asp


I've been eyeing some 3 way brass ball valves from Apollo. I sent them an inquiry this morning asking about lead content in the fitting, NSF-61 certification (looks like it's not certified), and their thoughts about lead leaching in our application. Honestly I'll probably use the valve either way but it will be interesting to hear what their thoughts are.
 
strange that they are out of stock...i must have gotten the last one...sent in my broken one and gave me a brand new one last friday...WIN!!
 
To follow up:

I thought about chugger and would've probably gone that route but they're entirely out of stock (plastic heads too) and I was impatient.

In regards to lead I found the following statement from NSF:
http://www.nsf.org/business/water_distribution/faq.asp

Apparently lead isn't even soluble in low ph water. A solid lead fitting passes the NSF test using ph 5 water (which is darn near the exact ph of wort). The same fitting fails miserably using the ph 10 water. To quote, "PH 10 test water was 71 times more aggressive for lead leaching than the pH 5 test water."

I think concerns about lead leaching from brass are *greatly* overstated in our application. I see many brewers making alarmist statements about brass and copper and these sorts of statements get passed around here as fact.

caveat emptor: I am not a plumber and do not work for the NSF.

Edit:
I found an academic article looking at lead leaching into drinking water.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19847713
I pulled the full article pdf and it's not that helpful as they didn't look at acidic water. But they did note that lead leaching from brass escalates as ph increases (although there's a ceiling to this effect at around a ph of 9). So higher ph does equate to more leaching but this really doesn't confirm or disconfirm the NSFs finding that low ph water is not an aggressive leacher of lead.

Incidentally, they also found that leaching takes time, with lead levels reaching equilibrium at around 24 hours. Being that the wort isn't in contact with the brass for more than a couple hours at most this too should be comforting. And we're talking about brass fittings/pump heads, not brass pipe anyway.

There's also this article (full text is free, it's super short) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1519760/pdf/envhper00373-0042.pdf
They didn't look at ph exactly but looked at the aggressiveness index which is a function of ph and hardness with higher ph and harder water being more aggressive. Conclusion: more aggressive water dissolves more lead into the drinking water.

Here's an Irish article on the subject of plumbosolvency where they say (but do not show) that lead is more readily dissolved in low ph water (i.e. acidic). So I'm not sure.
Rónan Daly, Martin Kimber. "Lead piping and plumbosolvency." Engineers Journal Volume 63, Issue 1: January/February 2009

I'm a social scientist, not a chemist by trade so this is getting a bit out of my element. In particular I expect the solvency of lead in wort is compounded by the fact that it's bound up with other metals in brass. In other words, lead solvency is not the same thing as brass-containing-lead-solvency.

My take away:
1. we excrete trace amounts of lead, it will accumulate but you must have high exposure over prolonged periods of time.
2. lead's effects are most damaging on children. Don't give your kids homebrew :p Duh!
3. we're dealing with small amounts of brass (not brass pipe) that contain small amounts of lead. We're not brewing with lead pipe.
4. the ph of wort is probably not conducive to lead dissolution
5. lead dissolution takes time anyway
6. lead exposure concerns are for drinking water. I hope you're not drinking homebrew like it was water!

There. Feel better?

Thanks for the info. I think I found a pretty nice deal on a March 809 BR. So I'll probably go with that. As for the Chuggers, I've been following them for some time and they are always sold out with no guidance as to a restock date.
 
Thanks for the info. I think I found a pretty nice deal on a March 809 BR. So I'll probably go with that. As for the Chuggers, I've been following them for some time and they are always sold out with no guidance as to a restock date.

Get the center inlet if you can, increased head and more gpm. I don't think the br-c model costs any more than the regular one.

I believe chugger is redesigning their head to go with a center inlet but am not positive.
 
[...]I believe chugger is redesigning their head to go with a center inlet but am not positive.

So you think they stopped production of a pump that by all accounts sells out in days if not hours to change the head design?

If that is true they're more inept at managing a business than they already appear - and that's pretty bad...

Cheers!
 
So you think they stopped production of a pump that by all accounts sells out in days if not hours to change the head design?

If that is true they're more inept at managing a business than they already appear - and that's pretty bad...

Cheers!

I thought I recalled reading that somewhere. Perhaps it was on their facebook page in the comments section. I'll look for it.

Anyway, I agree they're missing out by not meeting demand but, then again, they do seem to stand behind their product, it is a good product by all accounts, and the price is quite reasonable. I'd like to be in the business of producing and selling a product that outpaces manufacturing capacity :D
 
Yeah, I saw it on the face book page.

http://www.facebook.com/chuggerpumps

Look at the post from Chuggerpumps on Sept. 19th. This link may take you straight there..
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f....141958972514092.14354.141782755865047&type=1
Look closely at the pump she's holding.

I'm not saying they're not doing the side inlet head anymore (I don't know), just that they're going to offer a center inlet presumably because they flow better and may prime easier.

If you look closely at the photos in the title bar on the chugger homepage you'll notice the penultimate pump is sporting a stainless steel center inlet head.

So I wasn't making this up. For once :p


Edit: and I never said they 'stopped production' just that they were coming out with a center inlet pump. I see how my word "redesigning" kinda implies that but that was not my intent... just that they're coming up with a new head design that utilizes a center inlet.

And pumps will supposedly be available starting Nov. 4th according to the facebook page.
 
[...]If you look closely at the photos in the title bar on the chugger homepage you'll notice the penultimate pump is sporting a stainless steel center inlet head.[...]

So, if that's the next to last model, what would the ultimate pump look like? ;)

From everything I've heard they have the best price/feature set/performance metrics in the segment, so my comment was only about their incredibly inept management of the business.

If they had to stop production to actually fix a design issue with the existing pump, that would be one thing. But if they stopped production of the highly popular, can't-build-enough-for-gawd-only-knows-what-reason radial inlet model so they could start up a center inlet series, that would be stupidity multiplied by some very large number.

I work in a business where first to market can mean the difference between even having a product or not, never mind competing. As nice as they appear vis a vis customer care, the overall business acumen demonstrated by this company would keep me up every night...

Cheers!
 
So, if that's the next to last model, what would the ultimate pump look like? ;)

From everything I've heard they have the best price/feature set/performance metrics in the segment, so my comment was only about their incredibly inept management of the business.

If they had to stop production to actually fix a design issue with the existing pump, that would be one thing. But if they stopped production of the highly popular, can't-build-enough-for-gawd-only-knows-what-reason radial inlet model so they could start up a center inlet series, that would be stupidity multiplied by some very large number.

I work in a business where first to market can mean the difference between even having a product or not, never mind competing. As nice as they appear vis a vis customer care, the overall business acumen demonstrated by this company would keep me up every night...

Cheers!

I agree. I suspect *but do not know* that the heads and maybe the whole pump come from China. They're probably waiting on the boat to arrive. That's probably how they can sell them so cheap. That or march is seriously marking up the price.

Yeah, they definitely have a good product and lots of demand. It'll be interesting to see if they can manage to run the business into the ground in spite of all that.

And I'm glad you like my use of the word penultimate :p I was going to say second to last (from left to right) but then thought I'd write something intelligent for a change. If I knew what the next step forward in beer pump design would be you better bet I'd be selling it! ;)
 
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