Need a sanity check on service wiring

[TheMadKing]

So here's what I'm looking at:

I have 200 Amp service to my house as shown below, and my main breaker panel is in my garage where I intend to brew. I have an Auber Brew Buddy 30amp brewery controller.

My service panel is in the photo below.

I intend to do the following:

1. Turn off the mains
2. Install a 30A GFCI breaker into my panel
3. Run a 1' ponytail of 10/3 from that breaker behind the drywall to a surface mount 14-30 receptical just below the panel
4. Run a 10 foot 14-30p to 14-30r extension cord to my panel

 

[TheMadKing]

Ok so I talked to an electrician friend of mine and he highly recommended putting in a 50amp GFCI and outlet because it's a lot more common and it will have more uses. Plus that's what home depot carries, and all my panel components are rated for a 50 Amp circuit except for the wire guage... So... I can do the Following:

1. install a 50 Amp GFCI in my panel
2. Run a ponytail of 6/3 to a surface mount 14-50R outlet
3. Run an adaptor that's 6 awg wire, with a 14-50p on one end and 14-30r on the other to my controller power input
4. Replace the 10awg input wires with 6awg wires?

Photo of my brewery controller is attached. Auber accidentally sent me 63amp contactors and 40amp SSR'S, so I think the only thing missing from a 50 Amp panel is the wire gauge?

View attachment 622908

 

[TheMadKing]

Ok so I talked to an electrician friend of mine and he highly recommended putting in a 50amp GFCI and outlet because it's a lot more common and it will have more uses. Plus that's what home depot carries, and all my panel components are rated for a 50 Amp circuit except for the wire guage... So... I can do the Following:

1. install a 50 Amp GFCI in my panel
2. Run a ponytail of 6/3 to a surface mount 14-50R outlet
3. Run an adaptor that's 6 awg wire, with a 14-50p on one end and 14-30r on the other to my controller power input
4. Replace the 10awg input wires with 6awg wires?

Photo of my brewery controller is attached. Auber accidentally sent me 63amp contactors and 40amp SSR'S, so I think the only thing missing from a 50 Amp panel is the wire gauge?

View attachment 622908

Not sure why the attachment is locked but here's a second attempt

 

[Gravitysucks]

The 30amp Brew Buddy panels I've seen have a 3 way switch for the elements so it isn't possible to turn on both at the same time so if yours is set up like that there should be no reason to change any wiring in the control panel and you should still be able to use 10/3 for your extension cable since you should never draw more than 30 amps.

 

[TheMadKing]

The 30amp Brew Buddy panels I've seen have a 3 way switch for the elements so it isn't possible to turn on both at the same time so if yours is set up like that there should be no reason to change any wiring in the control panel and you should still be able to use 10/3 for your extension cable since you should never draw more than 30 amps.

If I can make it into a 50amp panel I would replace the element selector switch with one that turns on both elements simultaneously and just control them with the EZboils

I compared the parts list between the 30 and 50 Amp panels and I can't find a difference between the 50 Amp and what they sent me

 

[Gravitysucks]

For safety sake I would think that if you were to try to turn your panel into a 50 amp panel you would want a separate switch for each element if for no other reason than to minimize the chance to dry fire one of your elements. Then you have the issue of trying to put 50 amps through the 14-30 receptacle in the panel designed for 30 amps. About the only easy thing would be increasing the wire gauge from the receptacle to the main contactor. Only my opinion but it sounds like the changes you would need to make to your panel would be more hassle than they are worth.

 

[beermanpete]

The wiring needs to be correctly sized for the breaker rating. This includes plugs and receptacles. For your situation I suggest using the 30 amp breaker. Fires are far more costly than any savings you might realize by using mis-matched components.

 

[TheMadKing]

For safety sake I would think that if you were to try to turn your panel into a 50 amp panel you would want a separate switch for each element if for no other reason than to minimize the chance to dry fire one of your elements. Then you have the issue of trying to put 50 amps through the 14-30 receptacle in the panel designed for 30 amps. About the only easy thing would be increasing the wire gauge from the receptacle to the main contactor. Only my opinion but it sounds like the changes you would need to make to your panel would be more hassle than they are worth.

Maybe but I think those are really the only two things. And I'm not sure it's an issue to use the 14-30 receptacle if the wire gauge on both sides is rated for 50amps is it?

They use the same parts and the same panel for both their 30 amp and 50 Amp controllers except for the element switch, the wire gauge, and the input plug so I don't see how it can be much of a change.

Just thinking out loud more than anything. I may upgrade it down the road though. I definitely appreciate the feedback

 

[TheMadKing]

The wiring needs to be correctly sized for the breaker rating. This includes plugs and receptacles. For your situation I suggest using the 30 amp breaker. Fires are far more costly than any savings you might realize by using mis-matched components.

That's not my question, and I fully intend to use the correct size wires for the maximum load they could see. I'm not remotely trying to save cost either. The discussion of the controller was related to the feasibility of upgrading it to a 50 Amp panel, since Auber sent me all the larger components except for the ones mentioned above. It would be a simple matter to swap out the receptacle for the 50 Amp version since it fits in the same hole.

My main question is that I'm trying to find the best solution for getting power to my panel, that's it.

If I can put in 50 Amp service and easily upgrade my controller then that would just be a bonus.

 

[beermanpete]

That's not my question, and I fully intend to use the correct size wires for the maximum load they could see. I'm not remotely trying to save cost either. The discussion of the controller was related to the feasibility of upgrading it to a 50 Amp panel, since Auber sent me all the larger components except for the ones mentioned above. It would be a simple matter to swap out the receptacle for the 50 Amp version since it fits in the same hole.

My main question is that I'm trying to find the best solution for getting power to my panel, that's it.

If I can put in 50 Amp service and easily upgrade my controller then that would just be a bonus.

Got it. Then it seems the main question is about the cut out for the plug on the panel. If the 50 amp plug will fit in the existing cut out you are golden. Otherwise you need to determine if there is enough room for a larger plug.

 

[Gravitysucks]

As @beermanpete said, everything should be size properly for the current draw of what's being plugged into it. Personally, I would not try to use a 14-30 receptacle on a 50 amp panel. At very least I would change the receptacle in the panel to a 14-50 and increase the wire gauge to the main contactor to 6 gauge. The prong configurations of 14-30 and 14-50 are different but the diameter of each is generally the same depending on the manufacturer so it's likely that it wouldn't be a big deal to change the receptacle and wire gauge. I still don't think it's a good idea to have a single switch controlling 2 elements in 2 different kettles.

edit:I type very slow and from your last post it appears you already have determined most of what I posted.
Also, it looks like the door of both the 30 and 50 amp Brew Buddy panels are drilled out the same so with some switch changes and some rewiring you could probably duplicate the 50 amp panel if you are comfortable doing wiring. It just seems like a lot to go through unless you plan on doing back to back batches and need to power your HLT and boil kettle at the same time.

 

[Bobby_M]

The question is whether you'd appreciate the ability to run both elements at the same time or not. If not, just use the 30amp breaker and leave the buddy alone.

 

[TheMadKing]

The question is whether you'd appreciate the ability to run both elements at the same time or not. If not, just use the 30amp breaker and leave the buddy alone.

Agreed,

The only reason I would want that is to heat cleaning water while the boil finishes. I think I'm going to just order a 30 amp breaker and learn my new system before deciding whether that's worth my time. At least I know that the capability is within reach.

Thanks Bobby! I'm going to be ordering a riptide and some other TC hardware from you in the next few weeks.

 

[Dland]

This may or not help out, but what I did was supply 30A 240V to one 14-30 receptacle for Auber cube, and a separate run to another one so I can heat sanitation water while boiling wort though controller. Inside used 10/3(plus ground of course), outside extension cords 10/4 soow or similar.

On a 50A circuit, if you want to run two elements, a means to split load would be needed. I think some panels do this. Two 5500W elements maxed at the same time might be close to maxing the breaker, but will work math wise, and likely in practice too.

My advice is not to skimp with cheep imported plugs, wire and such. In this case you can get what you pay for and it matters.

 

[itsnotrequired]

how 'difficult' will it be to install the wall receptacle? electrician has a point, a 50 amp setup allows the receptacle to be used for a welder, car charger, etc., more flexibility than a 30 amp. if you have to do a bunch of drywall work, painting, etc. to install the recep, might be worthwhile to go bigger. your run sounds short so maybe not a lot of work? maybe the area you want to brew in isn't someplace like a garage where other 'stuff' could be used? if the latter situation, i would go with the 30 amp setup. note that you have 32 amp breakers in the panel so technically, you could be pulling 31 amps, greater than the 30 amp rating of the conductors. practically, there is little risk but something to keep in mind. with a 30 amp breaker upstream, everything is protected. the contactors do not offer any overcurrent or short-circuit protection.

you could also install 50 amp worth of conductor in the wall and a 50 amp recep with a 30 amp breaker in the panel, gives you more felxibility down the road. you would need to confirm you could land the #6 conductors on the 30 amp breaker though.

 

[Ahks]

If it were me, I'd install 50A service/plug and keep my controller at 30A, make sure it's fused for 30A and sort an adapter at the wall.

But then I also know I want a welder and a car charger in my garage in the future

 

[TheMadKing]

how 'difficult' will it be to install the wall receptacle? electrician has a point, a 50 amp setup allows the receptacle to be used for a welder, car charger, etc., more flexibility than a 30 amp. if you have to do a bunch of drywall work, painting, etc. to install the recep, might be worthwhile to go bigger. your run sounds short so maybe not a lot of work? maybe the area you want to brew in isn't someplace like a garage where other 'stuff' could be used? if the latter situation, i would go with the 30 amp setup. note that you have 32 amp breakers in the panel so technically, you could be pulling 31 amps, greater than the 30 amp rating of the conductors. practically, there is little risk but something to keep in mind. with a 30 amp breaker upstream, everything is protected. the contactors do not offer any overcurrent or short-circuit protection.

you could also install 50 amp worth of conductor in the wall and a 50 amp recep with a 30 amp breaker in the panel, gives you more felxibility down the road. you would need to confirm you could land the #6 conductors on the 30 amp breaker though.

Thanks! I may do just that since I have the parts laying around. My garage is bare drywall and that's where I brew so I would install my outlet about a foot from the main panel. It's almost zero work.

But I'm sitting here looking at my Auber panel and I just realized that there might be a design flaw on their part...

They only want 30 amp input service... The wires on that input are also 10awg which is only rated for 30 amps

If I install the controller as they suggest on a 30 amp gfci and run a single element at full power + both of my pumps that's 32 amps maximum load... Right?

Is this panel even safe to use? I paid $1000 for it so I'm going to have words if they have an unsafe design on their hands

And if it's protected by being on a 30 amp gfci breake am I just going to trip the circuit every time I brew?

 

[itsnotrequired]

Thanks! I may do just that since I have the parts laying around. My garage is bare drywall and that's where I brew so I would install my outlet about a foot from the main panel. It's almost zero work.

But I'm sitting here looking at my Auber panel and I just realized that there might be a design flaw on their part...

View attachment 623025

They only want 30 amp input service... The wires on that input are also 10awg which is only rated for 30 amps

If I install the controller as they suggest on a 30 amp gfci and run a single element at full power + both of my pumps that's 32 amps maximum load... Right?

Is this panel even safe to use? I paid $1000 for it so I'm going to have words if they have an unsafe design on their hands

And if it's protected by being on a 30 amp gfci breake am I just going to trip the circuit every time I brew?

assuming a 5500 watt element, you'll draw about 23 amps at 240 volt. throw on the pumps and you are around 25 amps. my example of 31 amps above would be if there was some type of flaw with the element and it drew more amps than normal. with a 50 amp upstream breaker, you could be drawing more than the 30 amp rating of the conductor and the 32 amp breaker wouldn't trip. practically, it is fine, just a nuance of the electrical code and ratings. but it can be argued the nec doesn't even apply inside the panel since it is a plug-in 'appliance'.

 

[Gravitysucks]

What elements are you using? The typical 5500watt elements draw a maximum of about 25 amps. A Chugger pump about 1.6 or 1.7 amps.

edit: slow typing again...beat me to it.

 

[TheMadKing]

What elements are you using? The typical 5500watt elements draw a maximum of about 25 amps. A Chugger pump about 1.6 or 1.7 amps.

I'll have 2x5500 watt elements but as you pointed out, only 1 on at a time. Plus a chugger pump and a blichmann riptide running simultaneously.

 

[Bobby_M]

Absolutely no problem.