Need a hefe doctor - Sour tang aftertaste taste in multiple hefes

[Clementine]

What did I do some math wrong some where? Or are you just picking on me for using Metric.... don't go there it will hurt.

Clem

 

[Germelli1]

What did I do some math wrong some where? Or are you just picking on me for using Metric.... don't go there it will hurt.

Clem

Nope, you are spot on. Somehow I got the idea in my head your math came out to a 20L starter...not batch size haha

 

[CidahMastah]

At the risk of being off topic I have two things, one question and one opinion

Question
I also am really interested in your gram method of measuring yeast. Are you just measuring the weight of the slurry with a set amount of liquid present or are you doing some fancy thing of measuring volume and weight and FG of wort and figuring out how much of the sample is yeast and how much is spent wort?

I am all about off topic

For backstory, I wash yeast similar to the sticky (let me know if you need a link to it). I do sterile water and do 20 minute rest in fermenter, pour off, 20 minute rest in container, pour off 20 min in container, then into sterilized jars.

As for your actual question I simply and quite literally pour off all the liquid after the yeast has compacted and measure the yeast I need by spooning out. i.e. on brew day I grab a jar, pour off all of the water and leave the compacted yeast. I set it aside and let it come to room temp while i brew. Then I spoon it out to get gram weight and pitch. If the yeast is older I may add a touch more.

I would love to tell you it is really fancy and complicated... but it isn't !

Opinion


I found Mr Malty to be a pitch rate of 8.5ish Million Yeast Cells per ml of wort (@1.048) so it is in the middle of the suggested range of 6-10 Million Yeast Cells per ml of wort. I made my own yeast calc tool so I could control the pitch rate. I used a formula that I found in a number of places but it is

(OG-1)/48*1000*pitchrate(MYC/ml)*ml of wort

Pitch rate 6-10MYC/ml
5.25 gallon approx 20 000ml (20liters)

Clem

so i lost you hear - well at least half of it

What is your rate per ml of wort?

 

[Clementine]

so i lost you hear - well at least half of it

What is your rate per ml of wort?

My point is people seem to take Mr Malty as a gospel (according to St Jamil) and although I use it as a double check, I prefer to do the math myself. If you pitch Mr Malty numbers (obviously you have your own system) then I would say your are definitely not over pitching. When you punch number in to Mr Malty I get a value lower than 10MYC/ml of wort at 1.048. Hence I trust my own calculator and since using it have not had a stuck brew. I try to pitch at 10MYC/ml of wort for a 1.048 wort.

That said until I can get my yeast to do a roll call we aren't going to have any exact numbers.

I like the weighing idea, I'm going to try that, although my current method is working well for me I like to play around with things. I grow my yeast from slants. I have had a couple of suspect yeast tubes from LHBS (not his fault but rather a factor of living in Hawaii) I can apply the same principle to my stepped starter from slants as you do to your starters from cakes, I'll report back on my findings.

Clem

 

[CidahMastah]

My point is people seem to take Mr Malty as a gospel (according to St Jamil) and although I use it as a double check, I prefer to do the math myself. If you pitch Mr Malty numbers (obviously you have your own system) then I would say your are definitely not over pitching. When you punch number in to Mr Malty I get a value lower than 10MYC/ml of wort at 1.048. Hence I trust my own calculator and since using it have not had a stuck brew. I try to pitch at 10MYC/ml of wort for a 1.048 wort.

That said until I can get my yeast to do a roll call we aren't going to have any exact numbers.

I like the weighing idea, I'm going to try that, although my current method is working well for me I like to play around with things. I grow my yeast from slants. I have had a couple of suspect yeast tubes from LHBS (not his fault but rather a factor of living in Hawaii) I can apply the same principle to my stepped starter from slants as you do to your starters from cakes, I'll report back on my findings.

Clem

Gotcha. I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

As you also said you can't get your yeast to do a roll call. I was tired of trying to guess what I thought the right pitch rate was, and growing starters days in advance to then chill and decant. So I started weighing after I made some estimates to what I thought the yeast viability was.

I think that even though sometimes in brewing you might not have the best practice, it is what works best for how you brew. That is what I am shooting for. Let me know how it works out for you.

oh by the way "I have had a couple of suspect yeast tubes from LHBS (not his fault but rather a factor of living in Hawaii)" nobody is feeling sorry for people who live in hawaii! haha

 

[enricocoron]

Just out of curiosity....how do you guys know hom many yeast cells you have? After you do a starter that is? All this pitching rate stuff has likely come from breweries big enough to have a microscope to count viable cells per mL.

 

[Germelli1]

Just out of curiosity....how do you guys know hom many yeast cells you have? After you do a starter that is? All this pitching rate stuff has likely come from breweries big enough to have a microscope to count viable cells per mL.

There are rough calculations that estimate the amound of yeast produced in X volume of wort with Y specific gravity. The calculations aren't anywhere close to exact since different yeast strains have different flocculation levels and other variables, but they are close enough for our applications!

 

[CidahMastah]

To add to this, research, reading etc suggests that when properly washing yeast at home we can reasonably expect in the range of 80-90% viability (based on lots of factors on how and when you harvest the yeast to wash). The numbers in my chart (post 28) assume 85% viability as I noted on that post.

Of course we don't know for sure how accurate we are, but I would say we are hitting near our intended goals. If I was way off, I would likely see longer lag times in fermentation start up, or perhaps experience over pitching issues (which are probably much less common).

As I said before, this is one of those things for me, that personally seems to be working well. Perhaps if you did the same it wouldn't work as well based on how you harvest, how you estimate your current yeast's viability etc. But for now it is convenient and quick and easy on brew day.

The mr malty formula was not made by a brewery. It was made from some lab work and experience from Jamil and his entourage according to their website if memory serves. So I think a calculator like that is aimed more towards HBers

 

[CidahMastah]

OK so sorta back on topic

This is my water report:



If anything jumps out at you let me know what you think and what my water should be good/bad for.

looks like my bicarbonates are in the high range, which i believe means I should have pretty good water for brewing darker maltier styles than lighter pales and lagers. I think based on how to brew's water information I am closest to the Dublin style water profile. I am going to go ahead and guess that a hefe should be looking for a lower bi carbonate brewing style. So it looks like to get there I would have to dilute the water with distilled? Checking out bru'n water

 

[slothorentropy]

I appreciated all the insightful comments along the way in this thread. I've got a semi-funked hefe right now that I'd considered lost but have resigned to just sort of forget about for a couple of months and see what happens. There was a lot of corny/veggie/DMS flavor in it at pitching due to some chilling problems (pump broke; had to chill overnight, etc.), and there was a sharp tartness to it both at pitching & bottling that was not at all pleasant. Cracked a bottle after two weeks of conditioning--still corny, still kind of sharp, though not as much as before. Actually got a hint of clove and banana under everything, it carbonated well and has decent body. So I'm good with waiting.

My specific question has to do with an aroma I got at bottling, after opening a bottle at two weeks, and which was still very present when I opened a bottle today (after almost a month). The best way to describe it would be funk--like the way an active fermentation smells. Like yeast doing its thing. Not sulfurous, exactly, or like rotten eggs. More of a bready, yeasty thing, but still very funky. Deep down underneath it you get the esters, but just barely. Is there a specific term used to reference this? Is it indicative of anything that might have gone wonky with the fermentation (higher than ideal temperatures were definitely a factor in SW OH this July).

 

[CidahMastah]

I appreciated all the insightful comments along the way in this thread. I've got a semi-funked hefe right now that I'd considered lost but have resigned to just sort of forget about for a couple of months and see what happens. There was a lot of corny/veggie/DMS flavor in it at pitching due to some chilling problems (pump broke; had to chill overnight, etc.), and there was a sharp tartness to it both at pitching & bottling that was not at all pleasant. Cracked a bottle after two weeks of conditioning--still corny, still kind of sharp, though not as much as before. Actually got a hint of clove and banana under everything, it carbonated well and has decent body. So I'm good with waiting.

My specific question has to do with an aroma I got at bottling, after opening a bottle at two weeks, and which was still very present when I opened a bottle today (after almost a month). The best way to describe it would be funk--like the way an active fermentation smells. Like yeast doing its thing. Not sulfurous, exactly, or like rotten eggs. More of a bready, yeasty thing, but still very funky. Deep down underneath it you get the esters, but just barely. Is there a specific term used to reference this? Is it indicative of anything that might have gone wonky with the fermentation (higher than ideal temperatures were definitely a factor in SW OH this July).

I am hoping that by the knoweldge in this thread I can produce an ayinger, or FK type hefe - and that others with hefe troubles can too. So I am glad that you are seeing some light at the end of the tunnel and hopefully we can sort this out!

A couple comments and one question for the masses.

1. Veggie DMS stuff. I assume you used pilsner malt - 90+ minute boil with lid off?
2. The aroma is probably sulphur from the ferment. Maybe try scrubbing co2 in a keg before bottling? It should dissipate.
3. the bready yeasty thing I have too (I actually like that part). I consider it part of the style.
4. Do you have hard water? I am convinced that part of my sour tang accentuation issue is the hard water (TBD).


QUESTION/REQUEST: I read somewhere that Gordon Strong posted a water profile for his 1st place hefe recipe for NHC which was posted in a zymurgy magazine. IF ANYONE HAS THAT RECIPE AND WATER PROFILE PLEASE POST OR PM ME I beg you.... Also if you have a tried and true recipe and water profile that produces some thing similar to the above hefes... please let me know.

I am thinking that based on my water report the next time I do hefe I will attempt to work with distilled water and build up a profile that is much softer. Like pilsner, but more towards munich's low end. That is unless I get Gordon Strong's water profile....

If I have to brew a hefe and put it on a boat for months at god knows what temp and exposure to sunlight to get a FK hefe, d@mn it, that is what I will do.

 

[BigdogMark]

I love a good heffe myself. My brew-bud and I have made 10 batches of heffes (100 gallons) with varying degrees of success, but always improving. Our last batch was very smooth and drinkable, but tended a bit more towards the banana flavors than we are aiming for. We hold the Franziskane up as the goal as well. We've made dunkels as well.

Our evolution to this point has been working through water profile issues, yeast issues, and mash temperatures. We have had the best luck with the Wyeast Weihenstephan Weizen 3068. We pitch one pack into our 10+ gallons of wort after a good smack. We have also started oxygenating the wort with the oxygen kit from Williams Brewing. The Wyeast gives us consistent results with a mild flavor. The dry Munich yeast also works but has a stronger flavor than we were looking for.

We have moved our mash temperatures all over the place looking for the right balance of sweetness with the rest of the flavors and hop additions. In the cooler months we like a bit heavier brew, mashing at 154 or so, but with the 100+ weather we have now, we are mashing at 150-151 degrees. There is still plenty of sweetness in the beer to our mind.

The water adjustments made the most difference for us. Our water has a high alkalinity level that caused a harshness to the bittering is probably the best way I can describe it. We dilute our water with 60% distilled or RO water, then add back a few chemicals in order to balance the magnesium-sodium and the sulfate-chloride ratios. Our adjustment after the dilution is 1.5g epsom salt and 2.2g calcium chloride.

------------ existing --- final
calcium ------ 119 ------ 63
magnesium --- 31 ------- 17
sodium ------- 45 ------- 18
sulfate ------- 142 ------ 72
chloride ------ 107 ------ 71
bicarbonate -- 425 ------ 75

We brewed with this adjustment for the last year or so with good results, then a few months ago I found the Bru'n Water calculator. The salt additions we had previously calculated were still correct, but it recommended we add lactic acid to the water in varying amounts for the mash (5 ml) and sparge (12ml) water. Our last batchs of pale ale and heffe were the smoothest beers we have made to date.

We are brewing the pale and heffe again tomorrow, along with an oktoberfest in the hopes it will bring cooler weather.

 

[CidahMastah]

By the way bigdog - really appreciate the water profile. I will be coming back to this on my next hefe and will post back and let people know how my quest is fairing. Glad you guys are in hot pursuit. I think the softer water will be the ticket for full success. While the hefe/dunkels taste good, they just aren't a FK!

 

[slothorentropy]

Mastah, thanks for the comments on my post. One of the things I realized in reading this thread is that I didn't do a 90min boil--I didn't even know a 90min boil was part of brewing with pilsner malt until just recently.

 

[CidahMastah]

Mastah, thanks for the comments on my post. One of the things I realized in reading this thread is that I didn't do a 90min boil--I didn't even know a 90min boil was part of brewing with pilsner malt until just recently.

Glad to help. Your fix is way easier than mine! If I have to haul 15G of distilled water and treat it to get it closer to making a good hefe then I can see a lot fewer hefes in my future!

Another key to reducing DMS is chilling quickly. I was just reading somewhere that you want to chill your wort to <140F ASAP after the boil to avoid DMS from forming. I think I read that on Mr. Malty. Luckily for me with my huge immersion chiller I have no issue chilling a brew from 212 down to <140F.

http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

 

[oldschool]

And really DMS is not just a worry in pilseners malts. Do a 90 min boil with any very light colored malt-such as pilsner.

 

[slothorentropy]

Wouldn't that include like virtually every base malt in that SRM range?

 

[CidahMastah]

I personally have never had issues with 2row, pale malt, maris otter light base SRM brews at 60 minutes. A buddy of mine did have that issue with a pilsner - we could taste it. Not saying oldschool is wrong, just saying I never do a 90 minute boil unless there is a good chunk of pilsner in there.

 

[slothorentropy]

Yeah that's kind of what I was getting at. If the best practice were to boil every very light-colored malt for 90 minutes to avoid DMS, wouldn't the conventional boil time for most AG recipes be 90 min, not 60?

 

[enricocoron]

It comes out about right for me if I wash the yeast from a 5 gallon batch and split into 3 50mL conical vials. Each yeast vial looks to be similar to the WL amount so I can do 3 brews of ale at 1.055 or so without a starter. If it's been in the fridge longer than 3 months, is a lager, or is a high grav I usually do a 48 hour 1 liter starter.

 

[mistercameron]

My dunkelweizen is just finishing up before the keg and I tasted the same tangy sourness as my last hefe. I've had the same experience as you... The hefs come out on the sour end while other styles are more or less fine. I, too, have hard water, do I wonder if that is the reason. On the other hand, my first hef used S04 and I didn't recall the same tanginess, though that recipe also used much less wheat.

It seems the chemistry might accentuate the tang more than some other factors, but has anyone verified this? I wonder if even having lots of wheat contributes... The tang reminds me of bread dough.

Also, I listened to Jamil's episode on dunkelweizens and he suggested these beers be fermented at 62 F for more balanced flavors.