Need a hefe doctor - Sour tang aftertaste taste in multiple hefes

[CidahMastah]

OK,

I am stumped on this one and think that there must be something going on, potentially with water chemistry or similar. I need some guru help to sort this out because I am about to dump a dunkel. I already know people will say infection... I just don't think that is the issue. But feel free to fire away. This doesn't taste like an off taste per say - something seems to be wrong in the brew, not the process or sanitary aspects.

To date I have brewed:
A Blood orange hefe (WLP 351 - new yeast)
68-69F

B Bavarian Hefe (1068 - new yeast)
68F


C Blood orange hefe (WLP 351 - washed yeast, 1st generation)
62-64F

D Dunkel (WL351 - washed yeast, 1st generation)
62F for 4 days
68F for 4 days they room temp


Each of the 4 hefe styled brews has had a sour tang to it. With the best version being the brew C. I think that since the BO version uses a late hop addition that is aromatic it helps to minimize the sour tang. I think the ferment temps that are lower made the vanilla/banana come through much better. However this one still has a slight sour tang to it that is discernible.

Some notes:
1. The bavarian hefe, which friends drank and thought was great, had the sour tang since memorial day weekend and I just tried some recently and it is still there.
2. My current dunkel is quite sour and not undrinkable. But I found myself saying... if I am going to enjoy a beer, this one ain't it!

Final note. I am looking to make a hefe that is very franziskaner like. Slightly sweet, with that banana vanilla aftertaste. Franziskaner, or darn near any commercial hefe I have tried does not have a sour or tang aftertaste.


I need a hefe doctor.

Thanks!

 

[Dunerunner]

Clean and sanitize everything. Replace or run 200 degree water through all your brewery hose for 30 minutes. It sounds like Acetobacter to me.

 

[samc]

Not a hefe doctor but as you mention ''water chemistry". What are you using?

I'd just go with RO water and some adjustments per Water Primer by AJ and that will eliminate the water side of things from the equation.

 

[CidahMastah]

I should mention that my brews with other styles, including sam adams summer ale clone and many more from stout to porter, SN pale ale, irish red, do not have this issue of sour/tang/ tart.

I am using well water which is hard and mineral filled, but I don't know the composition. Been meaning to get a water analysis but haven't gotten to it yet. I wasn't sure if the hardness might over emphasize hops... really I am jsut grabbing at straws here...

I believe this issue is isolated to hefes only.


my brews have been something like this (not exact):

memorial day to present:
1. Ed worts hefe
2.Killians Irish red (not affected)
3. BO hefe
4. biermuncher's witbier (not affected)
5. BO hefe
6. beelzebub (not affected)
7. Westy 12 clone (not affected)
8. Sam adams summer ale (not affected)
9. Sierra Nevada Pale ale (not affected)
10. Dunkelwiezen

Point being that the batches have been spread out and other stuff has brewed well in between.

Acetobacter was one thought I had, but Acetobacter tastes acidic, this is more of a sour to me, or tangy, but not vinegary.

 

[CidahMastah]

I also did read:
"acto/pedio because it takes several months after infection before you can even begin to taste the sourness"

if that is true it isn't either of those. This dunkel was 3 weeks old when i tried it. I even tried the Blood orange on day 10 - taste was there.

 

[enricocoron]

Acetaldehyde maybe forming from only the Hefe style yeasts. Munich water is fairly soft (little salt) but with high carbonates so their yeasts probably work best in RO water supplemented with a little Gypsum, and a healthy dose of baking soda....maybe a tiny bit of epsom salt but not too much or you'll bring up the sulfate levels to west coast levels.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

If your hefe batches are intermixed with other batches that were fine then it's unlikely you have an infection but it is possible you have a bacterial or wild yeast infection that really digs something in wheat.

I'm more inclined to believe it is your water. Try filtering your water or buying spring water/drinking water at the store and see if that removes the problem. If it doesn't then you have an infection problem or something quirky in your brewing process.

 

[Ravenshead]

I wouldn't think your water profile would be enough to make something undrinkable as long as there's no chlorine. Not optimal, sure but I can't see undrinkable. Especially since the rest of your beers come out alright.

You might want to try a cleaner yeast and see if you still taste it. Try YLP 320 and see if you still taste the tang. If you don't, move on to YLP 380 or YLP 300 to increase the banana/clove flavor.

 

[CidahMastah]

Thanks for the suggestions guys - don't get me wrong - it isn't undrinkable, just not what I enjoy. To back this up I had a participant in one of the group buys come in and try 3 hefes I have brewed. He said he could taste the sourness, but actually liked it, and preffered hefes with that sour flavor. So perhaps I am really sensitive to it, because people who have tried them have liked them as well.

I don't plan on doing a hefe for a while, but I will have to try with a water adjustment as you guys have suggested up above. Thanks so much for the help with suggested water make up.

enricocoron - I do 11G batches, would you be able to suggest those additions you suggested above in more specific quantities if I were to treat say 20 gallons of RO or distilled water for a brew session?

I wanted to comment on this while the taste was fresh in my mind before I forgot what I was tasting.

Interesting point about a bacteria that might prefer wheat and actually thrive in it...

Thanks for those yeast suggestions Ravenshead - I will keep them in mind as I try to get a darn hefe that has the subtle sweet, tehn banana/vanilla vs. the citric tang

 

[enricocoron]

I just use the tables in the 'How to Brew' appendixes to adjust to Munich water. I basically start with RO everytime becasue San Diego water has too many ions...The books online for free. I just keep Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate), Gypsum (Calcium sulfate), and baking soda (sodium bicarbonate)....It's not an exact science however since you are adding sulfate and sodium when trying to adjust your water. However I think getting the carbonate and calcium/magnesium levels at least close are the primary concern. I think it's worth remembering that in brewing other countries beers, you are at a disadvantage from the start as far as water is concerned so it may not be easy to exactly replicate flavors from overseas.

 

[CidahMastah]

It's not an exact science

That is the tough part - the not exact science part

Thanks for the direction

 

[TripHops]

I am no scientist but reading your thread about using well water reminded me of my first wheat beers having a little sour taste to them. This was quite a long time ago and since then I have been using filtered water using the reverse osmosis process to remove chlorine. My PH has consistently been between 5.5 & 5.7 before adding any adjustments. Most of the time I don't add any salts but when I do it is usually during the mashing stage.

The other thing is that most of the Weizen yeasts to day produce some sulfur which I would suspect could be reacting with some of the minerals in your well water which could contribute to a sour taste. Other yeasts for IPAs, Ales and such, don't seem to produce much sulfur during fermentation. However, if the beer is bottled, that sulfur taste usually dissipates.

I have consistently used WYeast 3068 or White Labs 380 for my Weizens and not noticed any sour taste after bottle conditioning. However, if I keg the Weizen I do notice a slight sour tinge but not to the point where it is undrinkable.

Good luck...

Trip

 

[CidahMastah]

Thanks trip - I am starting to think more and more that my water might be the culprit (or part of the story). It had worked so darn well for the other styles I have done - I guess there had to be an outlier

do you mean your PH of the water is 5.5 ish in your mash? Or just the water itself? I know my water is more like 6.5-7 for PH if I remember the tests done when we bought the house a few years ago...

Looks like I will have some time to figure this water thing out, since I probably won't be brewing a hefe for a while with summer coming to a close.

 

[enricocoron]

Trip, so kegging hefes isn't really advisable? Why will the sulfur dissipate in bottles but not kegs? The reason I ask is I've got a hefe just about a week in the keg...tastes pretty good, a little light on the body, next time I'll add a higher % wheat (only 50% this time)...and add some dextrin unfermentable malt to the bill. I do taste a slight sour taste but this is in a lot of commercial hefes and something I like...it's more of a lemon zest flavor though and not like a rotten egg sulfur tinge or any green apple flavors. Just wondering when I re brew my Hefe if bottles are the way to go?

 

[TripHops]

Hi CidahMastah,

When I mentioned PH between 5.5 - 5.7 that is in the mash. I take the reading during the first infusion. If the process is single infusion at Saac rest and the PH is in that range, I make no adjustments. Our water PH here in Southern Washington is between 8.0 - 8.1 and is drawn from wells before purifying with chlorine and other regulatory ingredients. I use RO water to remove the chlorine taste but it doesn't change the original PH hardly at all.

enricocoron; Yes, I meant more like a slight sour astringency taste and not like rotten eggs (H2S). Most of the time my Hefes don't spend much time in the keg because they are gone in a couple of weeks. However, one batch was in the keg over a month when I went on a 3-week vacation and upon my returned I noticed a slight sour taste. It is not that it is bad or anything it is just that I like my Hefes clean and crisp with a refreshing flavor. Sometimes I get it perfectly and sometimes I am a little off. I guess that is the nature of the home-brewing beast..hehe

Trip

 

[oldschool]

How "tangy" is it really? What is your pitch rate? What is your fermentation schedule? Tartness is a characteristic of hefe yeast. It's what helps them be refreshing IMO. The BJCP guidelines mentions it in the flavor. You said your friends liked it.

Send me a bottle!

 

[CidahMastah]

Flip that PH makes a heck of a lot more sense in a mash. I was thinking that was your water from teh tap PH, I was like... holy acidic water!

Oldschool: As for pitch rate (remember these are all 11G batches):

A Blood orange hefe (WLP 351 - new yeast)
68-69F
1 yeast pack with 16oz starter or about 75 billion cells

B Bavarian Hefe (1068 - new yeast)
68F
Pitched 1 quart starter or about 150 billion cells

C Blood orange hefe (WLP 351 - washed yeast, 1st generation)
62-64F

~21-22g or about 385-400 billion cells by my chart

D Dunkel (WL351 - washed yeast, 1st generation)
62F for 4 days
68F for 4 days they room temp

~21-22g or about 385-400 billion cells by my chart


*I estimate 20 billion cells per gram if 100% viable. For washed yeast I estmate 80-90% viable, thus I multiply .17 by grams. i.e. .17 X 8.6g = ~146 billion cells


the philosophy was:

Batch A, high temp ferment, stress yeast with lower pitch rate to get phenols.
Batch B, high temp ferment, A bit more yeast to compare
Batch C, low temp ferment, regular pitch rate to get more phenols (Jamil's method)
Batch D, Low then high ferment, regular pitch rate, to see if this balanced better

For the record:

1. Batch B was the most tangy.
2. Batch C had a vanilla nose, best overall flavor and least amount of perceived tang. But in that hefe it may have been masked more by aromatic hop addition at 15 mins.

Random finding:
Dunkel - I pulled this out of the keezer the other night so I could carb up some cider for the wife. Never do this really, but I was annoyed with the dunkel so I let it warm up to room temp. tasted it warm, virtually no sour or tang, if any However I could smell a bit of sulfur in the nose, not overwhelming, but it was there. When I chill this again I will be very interested to see if the tang comes back.

 

[CidahMastah]

Tartness is a characteristic of hefe yeast. It's what helps them be refreshing IMO. The BJCP guidelines mentions it in the flavor.

Why is it that most of the commercial hefes I really like, don't seem to ahve this tartness. They do however seem to have a vanilla and slight sweet aftertaste?

Has anyone been able to replicate something like an ayinger bavarian hefe, or franziskanner?

The hefe's I made aren't bad, just not what I am shooting for. I will acknowledge that I think I have a pretty good palate (tested as a super taster in college), so I might just be overly sensitive to its presence. I don't mind strong flavors at all, love whiskey and scotch etc. I just am looking for a different hefe than I am getting. After trying several iterations of fermentation temps, pitch rates etc., I was hoping that someone would be able to demystify this sucker

 

[Homercidal]

I think a slight tartness would be normal for most beers with that much wheat. The mash temp might affect this as a higher temp would introduce more sweetness and make the tartness less noticeable.

As far as water goes, this is a possibility. If you have a mineral report of your water, we can make simple assumptions on what your pH might have been, or if your flavor minerals are out of whack. Water chemistry is a fun part of brewing, but it also has a bit of a learning curve. I think it's one part of brewing that *might* be important to understand, but you won't know until you know what's in your water.

 

[CidahMastah]

I think a slight tartness would be normal for most beers with that much wheat. The mash temp might affect this as a higher temp would introduce more sweetness and make the tartness less noticeable.

As far as water goes, this is a possibility. If you have a mineral report of your water, we can make simple assumptions on what your pH might have been, or if your flavor minerals are out of whack. Water chemistry is a fun part of brewing, but it also has a bit of a learning curve. I think it's one part of brewing that *might* be important to understand, but you won't know until you know what's in your water.

I gotta take some time and get a sample out to ward labs... have the order form and all, just haven't sent it out. That might answer some questions that need answering

 

[Homercidal]

I gotta take some time and get a sample out to ward labs... have the order form and all, just haven't sent it out. That might answer some questions that need answering

In the very least it will devour a fair portion of your brewing time as you dig into the chemistry. Even if you end up doing nothing with your water, you'll probably learn a great deal about how the malt and water combine to make a good beer.

 

[enricocoron]

CidahMastah- I know it was second generation yeast, but 400 billion cells seems like an overpitch would could result in slightly sour tones, more than the style guidelines would call for. But for the first two batches if tasting similar it must be something else...

I was going for a Fransikanner style for my first Hefe but I didn't get it, too light on the body.

 

[CidahMastah]

CidahMastah- I know it was second generation yeast, but 400 billion cells seems like an overpitch would could result in slightly sour tones, more than the style guidelines would call for. But for the first two batches if tasting similar it must be something else...

I was going for a Fransikanner style for my first Hefe but I didn't get it, too light on the body.

Maybe a higher mash temp for you? Have you gotten pretty close to the FK hefe? I would love a clone attempt that was fairly close. I have only attempted a dunkel in the FK's image

On my chart I was targeting 385B cells since it was 11G at ~1.050 ish - might have been as high as 1.054 can't recall. In either case that was the pitch rate which mr. malty uses. I tend to think that is a relatively high pitch in general (mr. malty cacl.). What do you use to come up with your pitch rate?

btw: sadly since the first two batches tasted similar, it can probably be reasonably ruled out just the same.

 

[CidahMastah]

In the very least it will devour a fair portion of your brewing time as you dig into the chemistry. Even if you end up doing nothing with your water, you'll probably learn a great deal about how the malt and water combine to make a good beer.

Always need something to keep the mind active!

In that good spirit, I finally bottled and sent out my water sample to Ward Labs this morning. Looking forward to getting the results so now I can take a serious approach to the pretending I know what I talk about when people start talking about water profiles

 

[Homercidal]

Always need something to keep the mind active!

In that good spirit, I finally bottled and sent out my water sample to Ward Labs this morning. Looking forward to getting the results so now I can take a serious approach to the pretending I know what I talk about when people start talking about water profiles

At least you'll be able to fake it with the best of them!

 

[enricocoron]

I don't exactly calculate a pitch rate...I just go by the fact that a vial of WL ale yeast works for 5 gallons. When I harvest and wash yeast off Krausen, I usually get enough to get 3 50mL vials with a similar amount of yeast that I started with in the original WL vial----about a 100 billion cells. Recognizing that yeast is weakened, I usually make a small 750mL starter 48 hours before pitching for that washed spent yeast. I don't make a starter for original vial unless OG is higher than 1.070...at which point I would make a
1L starter....or I shoot for 150 billion. For my lager same thing, I used a 1L starter and shot for 150 billion for 5 gallons as suggested in "How to Brew". The only time I would do a 2L starter and go for 200 billion is if I was making a Doppelbock....lager yeast with a very high OG....if it was 10 gallons I would double everything...if it was 11 gallons I would still just double everything. These calculated yeast growth curves are not necessarily going to be reproducible by everyone, the condition of yeast/temp/aeration/duration/sugar availibility/nutrients will all be variables difficult to reproduce every time outside a laboratory.

 

[CidahMastah]

enricocoron - yeah I totally hear you. I used to pitch using the method you described, but then I noticed that 95% of my brews were above 1.050. I read somewhere, that the pitch rate for 1 vial per 5gal batch was for a batch that was like 1.040-1.045 or something. That was when I started looking into the mr. malty calculator. Of course it will still likely work for 1.060, etc. However I was shooting for optimal yeast performance.

Mr. Malty does seem to be high on the pitch rate, but it has quite a few followers. Being a yeast washer, I usually don't have to make starter because I have figured out, "about" how much yeast i can get from a batch. One 11G batch will yield me roughly 4 quart jars of yeast, which when settled, each of the quart jars is generally perfect for one 11G batch of brew (SG and age dependent). However I have gotten a pretty good feel for it and can with my gram system I weigh out the proper amount and get my ferments active continually. I go 3-4 generations deep at most, then I make a starter on a fresh vial and start the process over again. Costs me about .50 per 11G batch for yeast. Washing is a pain, but worth it...

You might want to check mr. malty out. another learning source and they have a good amount of explanation behind their rates too. Worst case you get another perspective to draw from

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Just for the record, mr. malty calls for 530billion cells for a 1.070 brew. Big difference between that and your 150billion. So they would be calling for a 3.5L starter vs. a 1L starter like you currently do.

 

[CidahMastah]

yes I know I should switch to ml, but I like working off my gram scale better. More importantly... this really works well for me.

*Grams at 85% yeast viability

 

[Clementine]

At the risk of being off topic I have two things, one question and one opinion

Question
I also am really interested in your gram method of measuring yeast. Are you just measuring the weight of the slurry with a set amount of liquid present or are you doing some fancy thing of measuring volume and weight and FG of wort and figuring out how much of the sample is yeast and how much is spent wort?


Opinion

Mr. Malty does seem to be high on the pitch rate, but it has quite a few followers.

I found Mr Malty to be a pitch rate of 8.5ish Million Yeast Cells per ml of wort (@1.048) so it is in the middle of the suggested range of 6-10 Million Yeast Cells per ml of wort. I made my own yeast calc tool so I could control the pitch rate. I used a formula that I found in a number of places but it is

(OG-1)/48*1000*pitchrate(MYC/ml)*ml of wort

Pitch rate 6-10MYC/ml
5.25 gallon approx 20 000ml (20liters)

Clem

 

[Germelli1]

Opinion


I found Mr Malty to be a pitch rate of 8.5ish Million Yeast Cells per ml of wort (@1.048) so it is in the middle of the suggested range of 6-10 Million Yeast Cells per ml of wort. I made my own yeast calc tool so I could control the pitch rate. I used a formula that I found in a number of places but it is

(OG-1)/48*1000*pitchrate(MYC/ml)*ml of wort

Pitch rate 6-10MYC/ml
5.25 gallon approx 20 000ml (20liters)

Clem

Wait, 20 L?