Necessary to use secondary with lagering

[snyklez]

Good day everyone. I've searched for an answer to this question but haven't found anything definitive yet. I have 10g of an octoberfest currently fermenting in two fermentors. It's at the proper temp, I plan on doing a diacetyl rest if necessary, then lagering at 35°F for 4-6 weeks. My question. When lagering, is it necessary to transfer to a secondary, or can I lager in the primary? I have the ability to transfer using a 5g glass carboy to hold the beer temporarily while I clean and sanitize the primary, but that just sounds like a pain in the ass and I'd rather not risk infection. Thoughts?

 

[chemman14]

I personally lager in kegs. I just transfer to a corny and then once the lagering is finished I serve from that same keg. Works out great!

 

[Geordan]

In the end, it's a question of how long you're going to lager and how much it may impact your beer.
One of the big values of getting a lager off the yeast is clearing; you're removing that much more trub and yeast from the beer, which will mean there's less to drop out when in secondary. Lagering is a largely "mechanical" process of settling and aging. Having said that, I lager in the keg (as chemman14 noted), and after the first pull I get a crystal clear pint.

There is the bogeyman of yeast autolysis from sitting on the yeast mass for too long, though depending on how long you're lagering, this won't be a massive problem (or not a problem at all.) I wouldn't want to leave it on the yeast longer than 4-6 weeks (Which is a wild-arsed, no citation guess).

If you ARE lagering in the primary, I would be very careful moving it around at the end to transfer; if possible, I'd transfer it in place. This will mean you'll take advantage of a dense, settled yeast and trub cake and transfer less of it, without the risk of kicking it up by moving it around.

 

[Beernik]

I would for one main reason: one of the points of lagering is clarity. If you don't rack off the primary yeast then there is more yeast that can accidentally get roused when kegging or bottling.

 

[snyklez]

Interesting. I'm actually getting a few kegs today to start kegging my beer. When you lager in the keg are there any worries of pressure building? I mean, I guess if primary is done then you really don't have to worry about that huh?

 

[Geordan]

Interesting. I'm actually getting a few kegs today to start kegging my beer. When you lager in the keg are there any worries of pressure building? I mean, I guess if primary is done then you really don't have to worry about that huh?

Nope, there's not -- by the time you get to racking to secondary/keg for lagering, there will be no significant CO2 output from yeast metabolism without adding additional fermentables. Generally I put my lagers on gas as soon as they're in the keg, so they can carbonate as they lager -- about 3 weeks in they're hitting their stride and are ready to drink.

 

[chemman14]

Nope, there's not -- by the time you get to racking to secondary/keg for lagering, there will be no significant CO2 output from yeast metabolism without adding additional fermentables. Generally I put my lagers on gas as soon as they're in the keg, so they can carbonate as they lager -- about 3 weeks in they're hitting their stride and are ready to drink.

Ditto

 

[blefferd]

Nope, there's not -- by the time you get to racking to secondary/keg for lagering, there will be no significant CO2 output from yeast metabolism without adding additional fermentables. Generally I put my lagers on gas as soon as they're in the keg, so they can carbonate as they lager -- about 3 weeks in they're hitting their stride and are ready to drink.

I do the same. To the orignal poster, I would say its extremly recomended to put your lager on gas as soon as its in the keg for two reasons, one is to seal the keg as it was mentioned above, not much CO2 is going to be given off during the lager process, probably not enough to seal the keg/ or keep pressure in it so outside air stays out, and two like it was posted it will carbonate as it lagers!

 

[biertourist]

Lots of opinions on both sides...

In traditional lager brewing practices you begin slowly dropping the temperature after the primary phase is mostly completed, to your lagering temps; the reason that you SLOWLY drop the temperature is to allow the yeast to continue to do their work. In the traditional schedules you begin dropping the temperature when you are 2 points within the terminal gravity for your beer. (Which you either know because you've brewed the same beer a gazillion times OR because you performed a forced fermentation test.)

-Yes, the cold conditioning phase is mostly about aiding clarity and allowing particulates and chill haze to from and settle, but there are some processes that continue to occur that require the yeast to be present and working. -If you've done an adequate diacetyl rest and you've performed a "VDK force test" (pulled some beer and warmed it up and then cool it back down to see if you can taste any diacetyl) then the main warm conditioning processes are complete and you're probably ok to transfer to a secondary fermentation vessel. (There are still enough cells in solution to keep on working.)


Autolysis occurs much more slowly for lager yeast, slower at colder temperatures and slower in flat bottomed fermenters where the yeast bed depth is more shallow. (Obviously ale strains, higher temps, and conical bottoms autolyse faster); higher ABV can result in faster autolysis, too.


My personal opinion is to make your starter at room temp, pitch yeast at your coldest temp (46F), ferment cold, then perform a diacetyl rest when you're at 90% of terminal gravity until you detect NO butter during a VDK test (2 day minimum; 55F min) and wait until you're within 2 points of your FG, then transfer off of the yeast and slowly drop your temp down to your lagering temp; the Germans would use a spunding valve to keep the pressure pretty low during lagering and then fully carbonate after lagering is complete. Lager/Cold condition as long as you can stand it. (I start taking low carbonated "kellerbier" samples after about 2 weeks and then after 4 weeks crank the carbonation up to where its supposed to be for the style and bring the temp back to serving temp.)


Adam

 

[shelly_belly]

I have been doing a bunch of 1 gallon lagers this way and so far the results have been great. Excellent beer clarity and no off flavors from the trub or yeast. The longest I've gone is 6 months. I just used the yeast cake from that batch on a 5 gallon batch and it's fermenting quite nicely.