Natural gas brew stand - 23 tip burner to 10 tip conversion build.

[BlindLemonLars]

I tried the circle of bricks approach as well. Problem was, when I closed in the bricks sufficiently to block the flames, the burner got oxygen starved and started burning yellow.

TwoHeads...running that thing wide open in the dark...is that impressive or what?!? Hope you have better luck reining in all that power.

 

[TwoHeadsBrewing]

I tried the circle of bricks approach as well. Problem was, when I closed in the bricks sufficiently to block the flames, the burner got oxygen starved and started burning yellow.

TwoHeads...running that thing wide open in the dark...is that impressive or what?!? Hope you have better luck reining in all that power.

I like the amount of heat it throws off, I just need to find a way to contain it. Since I'm just using it for the HLT, I don't care to take any tips out...but I need to control the flame for sure. I can't even get close to the kettle when it's on full blast. I guess the obvious answer is not to run it full blast...but that seems so...smart? MORE FIRE!!! :rockin:

 

[Bobby_M]

There's a limit to how much heat can be transferred to the pot and water and any excess goes into the atmosphere. It's really a waste. It wasn't until I plugged about 10 tips that I could actually touch the ball valve handle or even stand near it.

 

[Cape Brewing]

I tried the circle of bricks approach as well. Problem was, when I closed in the bricks sufficiently to block the flames, the burner got oxygen starved and started burning yellow.

TwoHeads...running that thing wide open in the dark...is that impressive or what?!? Hope you have better luck reining in all that power.

That's probably the main reason why I burn as yellow as I do.... I've probably got them too oxygen starved.

I'll have to ask the old man (who teaches nat gas heating) how to get more oxygen in there. Maybe some kind of tiny manifold around the burner hooked into a tiny fan or something (completely making sh!t up off the top of my head).

Ehhh... either way... and like I've said a couple of times, I'll live with the yellow flame a some soot on my pots if I have to.

 

[Cape Brewing]

There's a limit to how much heat can be transferred to the pot and water and any excess goes into the atmosphere. It's really a waste. It wasn't until I plugged about 10 tips that I could actually touch the ball valve handle or even stand near it.

But isn't the real debate here how to get a nice clean, blue flame that isn't four feet high??

I have mine set up so that they are throwing a ton of heat but not so much that it is overkill. I don't have them firing like jet engines or anything. I have two 32 tips and I have... I dunno... a 6-9 inch flames coming off of them that varies with how much oxygen is getting in there... it goes from mostly blue to about half blue... and I don't have any problems of not being able to stand near them or anything like that.

I get nice coverage of flames across the entire bottom of my pots. The bricks get pretty toasty but I'm not worried about my rig bursting into flames or anything.

 

[EarthBound]

@mrkayel
I know this an old thread, but the first 6 posts of this thread are very helpful for me. Thank you.

 

[Cape Brewing]

Just 'cause this got bumped I'll add my two cent update....

I've got a ring of red bricks, with fairly large spaces between then and then another ring of bricks on top of that snug up against each other... so air can get pulled in along the bottom ring and the top ring contains the heat under the pot.

I cut down the gas flow through my Honeywell gas valves and then actually cut three two-inch holes right though the cement board top of my stand just so I could get more air to the burners. The pots are braced below the cement board so it's not as if the cement board is really holding anything up or there would be any problems by cutting it the way I did.

It's working freakin' beautiful now. I get really nice 4-5 inch blue flames with just a bit of yellow tips to them and no soot build up on my pots now.

They toss a ton of heat but I have no had a problem with scorching. I like the 32 tips because it is so spread out the heat across a slightly wider area.

I did an 18 gallon batch of weizen the other day and for that, I needed 25 gallons in each of my HLT and BK to come up from... I dunno... maybe 45 degree "hose water" up to 150's and it was done in under an hour.

 

[BlindLemonLars]

Cape, got any pictures of this setup? Glad you got it working to your satisfaction.

 

[Cape Brewing]

I'll take some tonight and post 'em

 

[Cape Brewing]

Here are the burners on low, the rig and the burners on high. The HLT and BK are each 45 gallons and the MT is 35 gallons

 

[Cape Brewing]

... and all of that soot is from before I drilled the holes right through the top of the stand. Since I've done that, I don't get any soot and the burners are burning pretty cleanly. They're tossing a ton of heat but like I was saying before, those are 32 tips and I'm not scorching anything... even on really long boils. I did a two+ hour boil this past weekend.


... it's a little frustrating because I've seen a bunch of people on these forums tell other people and then tell me that you can't dial those burners down. Ehhh.... there's a picture of it.

 

[ChrisS68]

Thanks for the pics Cape. Nice looking flames.
So when you refer to your Honeywell valves, would those be pressure regulators? I've been researching these burners, and from what I've seen and read, it would seem they do, in fact, require regulators to operate properly.

 

[Cape Brewing]

I have two honeywell valves that, my understanding is, they regulate volume not really pressure. Natural gas is pumped into your house at only a couple PSI so it's not really a pressure issue... unless you are using nat. gas from a tank or something... but I have mine plumbed directly into my house's nat. gas supply.

I have one valve for each burner without any other regulators.


And just to beat folks to the punch that might ask, "if the valves are just controlling volume/flow, why have them? Why not just use a ball valve?"

Because I have my burners on pilots and also control them through PID temp controllers. I set a temp on a PID and they, through the use of the Honeywell valves, click the burners on and off in order to maintain a constant temp.

 

[EarthBound]

Couldn't you use a ball valve anyway?

 

[Cape Brewing]

For what purpose? The valves I'm using are, in practice, electronically controlled ball valves. I wanted my valves to electronically turn on and shut off gas flow off to the burners while keeping the pilot lit. How would you do that with a regular ball valve? Or why would you use a regular ball valve in addition to that?

 

[ChrisS68]

I think most valves have pressure regulation built in. I did a quick search and, while YMMV, all the Honeywell valves I've looked at regulate to 3.5" WC.

Just about every appliance has some kind of pressure regulation. I believe that typical household pressure runs around 7" WC. Seems that GFA furnaces typically run at a manifold pressure of 3.5" WC (hence the setting on the Honeywell valves). A quick check of my furnace confirms this, while my water heater calls for a manifold pressure of 4" WC. I think a typical gas range will run in the area of 4"-5" WC.

It would take some digging, but somewhere on here there is a thread where this subject came up. Someone, who sounded a lot more knowledgeable than I, said the reason people weren't getting good results with these burners was due to running them at line pressure. This would certainly explain why you have a nice and adjustable flame, while others struggle to get acceptable results.

 

[Cape Brewing]

I think you're right. It is a lot different than propane at something like 30 psi and I'm sure you're right that these valves knock down the PSI slightly.

My confusion though is... the valves I have aren't some crazy-fancy or expensive valves... I don't understand why there are a slew of people that are adamant that you can't dial these burners down. You can and it doesn't take much (it seems to me) to do so.

 

[Cape Brewing]

PS. Jeeeesus my garage is a dump. I didn't think it was that bad but daaaaaaaaamn, those pics make it look like Sanford and Son

 

[EarthBound]

For what purpose? The valves I'm using are, in practice, electronically controlled ball valves. I wanted my valves to electronically turn on and shut off gas flow off to the burners while keeping the pilot lit. How would you do that with a regular ball valve? Or why would you use a regular ball valve in addition to that?

I apologize for not understanding your setup. The way I meant to word my question was could someone use a ball valve to regulate the amount of NG volume/flow? It may not be as accurate as a needle valve. I have ASCO valves to open and close the flow completely but not to regulate the flow.

 

[Cape Brewing]

No problem... I just didn't know what you meant.

And unfortunately, I'm not 100% sure either way. Like we were just bouncing around, I think the valves I have DO act as regulators and knock down the PSI a bit (like Chris was just saying).

You obviously won't get that capability from a ball valve or the ASCO valves you're talking about (it sounds like... if they are just opening and closing).

All of that said, BobbyM shows a pretty decent blue flame earlier in the this htread with just a ball valve (that I could see).

... but it seems he had to plug a bunch of jets to get the burner managable.

when I get home tonight I'll see if I can find the part # on my valves... that would probably help a lot.

 

[ChrisS68]

In this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/need-your-feedback-new-stand-mods-171680/ Yambor44 uses a ball valve to control his burner with apparent success.

Odd thing is that he says his household pressure is only 2", which seems awfully low. Might be a regional thing. None of my appliances would even work at that pressure.

 

[Cape Brewing]

My father has tought natural gas heating at a technical college for about 20 years now and when I told him what I wanted to do, he set up the valves, plumbed in the gas line, etc. So... that's what I'm a little short of 100% knowing exactly the explanation... I was spoiled and basically had it set up for me.

I was having problems with soot until I simply freakin' asked him, "hey... I'm getting a ton of soot. what's the deal?"

"turn the valves down and get some more air in there."

I turned the valves down a bit, drilled some holes in my stand and viola... works perfect now.

According to the old man, natural gas is only pumped into households at between 2 and 3 lbs. Who knows... maybe there are regional differences... but that's why I was saying just a couple of posts ago that I don't think the valves I have are really acting like regulators in a really significant way... although... maybe they are.

like I was saying, I'm gonna grab the part #'s off my valves so I can look 'em up. I should be able to find out if they are regulating pressure... If nothing else, maybe someone would be interested in finding those actual valves as well. I'm pretty positive they weren't outrageously expensive.

 

[Bobby_M]

My pressure at the rig is 8"W.C. with nothing running. 2 does seem really low.

 

[EarthBound]

In this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/need-your-feedback-new-stand-mods-171680/ Yambor44 uses a ball valve to control his burner with apparent success.

Odd thing is that he says his household pressure is only 2", which seems awfully low. Might be a regional thing. None of my appliances would even work at that pressure.

Thank you for posting that thread.

 

[thewurzel]

Sorry I may have missed this somewhere but what is the optimum distance between the top of the burner and the bottom of a flat bottom kettle, for the most efficient burn using the 24 jet natural gas burners?

 

[Cape Brewing]

I'm not sure I can give you the "optimum" distance but my kettle is about 5 inches off the top of my 32 tip burners and that seems to be working pretty well.

I don't think there's a lot of magic to the distance though. And when I say that, I mean I don't think there is a lot of difference between 5 inches and 7... or 8. 1 or 2 is too short and a foot and a half is probably too far... but as long as you can adjust your flame to burn all blue with a kettle sitting on top of it, you should be able to put it withing a range of 5 inches to... maybe... 9 or 10.

My suggestion would be to adjust your flame, put some water in your kettle and place it temporarily, using some sort of spacer, at different hieghts so you can make sure you're still getting a nice blue flame.

 

[lazybean]

i am in the process of setting up my rig to NG, currently propane/electric. One of the biggest problems i have seen with controlling the Jet-type burners is every one puts the ball valve right at the burner. I think this causes the NG to accelerate when entering the mixing chamber, causing all the problems with throttling down the flame. Were as CapeBrewing's valves have several feet of line to balance out before the mixing chamber. (from what i see in the pics)

A perfect example of this is a garden hose. I have a brass ball valve on the end of my garden hose, if i crack it open water shoots out about 10ft in a sharp jet, but if i open it all the way and crack open the ball valve at the beginning of the hose, i get a low pressure trickle of water. Same amount of water but at a much lower velocity.

I was debating on getting a Hurricane or a Jet burner, but i think ill go with the jet just so i can put this theory to the test, and if it fails ill just plug some jets.

What you guys think?

 

[Bobby_M]

Well, when you're running say three burners on a rig, would you put the valve 9 feet away on three separate runs?

 

[lazybean]

Yambor44's build looks like he only has about 6" and a 90* elbow between his ball valve and burner, and looks like he has no issues with control.

Im just speculating, but it appears that people with some distance between thier valve and burner are able to control the throttle much better.

As soon as i get my burner ill cut and thread an assortment of pipe and experiment with what lengths and combination of 90s do or do not help throttling. I'm an electrician and have the threaders to make my own so it will be easy to set up. Im ordering the burner this week, so it wont be for a few weeks till i can.

Good chance ill disprove my own theory, but hey thats half the fun.

 

[Bobby_M]

If your theory is correct, it wouldn't be too much trouble to add some pipe length between the valve and burner, it's just inconvenient.