NattyBrew's Electric Brewery Build

[NattyBrew]

No where close to an expert, but I think fill does not apply since you are using conduit for protection. Did you fish the wire through or push it? How many 90's you have. Again no expert.

Mild you absolutely beat me to the punch! I have been WAY over researching this thing and found that like most codes, there is a ton to learn. To the best of my research, my system is technically a "sleeve" for protection of the NM-B cable, and not a conduit system since it does not run completely between one electrical box to another. There is nothing I can find in my 2008 NEC handbook that prohibits Romex from being run in conduit, and I can only find confirmation that Romex should be protected with a sleeve of conduit in exposed locations where the wire could be damaged via 334.15.

I also found verification that conduit fill rules do not apply to my setup in Chapter 9, Table 1, Note 2 that:

Table 1 applies only to complete conduit or tubing systems and is not intended to apply to sections of conduit or tubing used to protect exposed wiring from physical damage.

So as far as my reading of the NEC, my protective sleeve is not required to meet NEC fill rules, even though by my calculations above it does and just barely! I have been wrong before, and I still may be here, but I think with the amount of research and reading I've done with my copy of the NEC I am confident my setup is very safe and 99% within code.

I think I will stop beating Barbaro here (too soon?) and move on to more of my build!

 

[milldoggy]

that sucks, but having a friend that is an electrician is a a good friend to have.

 

[Sparky]

Hi guys,

Sorry to chime in, but I could not resist....
First, let me stipulate your installs will (most likely) be fine and all is okay. I just want to clarify on the code issues and experiences.

(1) Romex run through conduit: For heat, fill, pipe size, run length, etc. reasons mentioned in your other post on a different thread. Then, there is the entry/termination of romex in conduit which comes into play. If we ran ANY length of ANY romex in conduit, the inspector would walk out (San Francisco Bay area). I think your local inspectors are thinking about shorter (6') runs.

(2) Wire fill. I know of no section in the NEC that shows wire fill calculations of ROMEX for any pipe of any size. Conductors (single) - yes, but a sheath romex? Where?

But, cramming a 10/3 romex in a 1/2" PVC pipe is not good. At least give it a little more space. And, I am more worried about the entry and termination, with good ground, bonding, and access to both points. But, I like your protection as long as the drywall hooligans do not pound screws/nail through the PVC.

(3) Wire fill AND de-rating. Ahh, there is also the point in 310 about de-rating 50% of the fill. Gets back to the temperature issue listed above. How do I know? Since the San Francisco inspector COUNTS the wires in the pipe. Think you can cram (18) 12 THWN wires in a 3/4 EMT conduit? Make that (9) wires + ground.

Look, the point of this is not for me to be a pee-pee face, but just that there is lots of gray areas and "street smart" issues with the code. I spend endless days with State Engineers going over the nuances of the code and interpretation. I just want to shed some light on these areas.

 

[NattyBrew]

Sparky,

As always, your insight is awesome. I did my fill interpretation from the note in Table 9 of the NEC which states that a multi conductor cable of two or more conductors shall be treated as a single conductor for calculating percentage conduit fill area. For cables with elliptical cross sections, the cross sectional area calculation shall be based on using the major diameter of the ellipse as a circle diameter.

Taking the dimensions of 10/3 Romex at 422 mils got me to my Cross Sectional Area of .1399 I mentioned before, which if I was referencing the right table kept me under the 53% fill rule for my PVC.

With your suggestion of bigger PVC I may just take it down and run a complete conduit system with two boxes and THHN wire running in between. I obviously am not trying to cut corners here, just trying to work through code and bounce my thought processes off you while I can.

In short: to run a completely code system I would need a j box to terminate the romex with a proper clamp, and then conduit containing THHN run to my outlet box on the wall, and to be safe using 3/4" schedule 80 or EMT? Is there a code preference for using sweep versus pull elbows? And per my understanding wire inside a complete conduit system need not to be clamped as it enters my outlet box correct?

Sorry for the bombardment of questions here, just trying to get it right!

 

[Sparky]

NB, I would leave it up. Just make sure
- the pipe is not cutting into the romex where it enters (like a friction point).
- it is grounded in the panel and box
- do not exceed the load of 30amps and preferably not exceed 24 amps
- it is a GFCI circuit

Again, I apologize if I am being over-the-top. I see too many issues out in the field! But, I like your number crunching.

 

[NattyBrew]

Alright sounds good, thanks again for the insight here Sparky. Awesome help you've provided. Any craft beer here in the Ohio/Michigan area I could send along as a thanks?

I currently have a 1/2" plastic bushings on the end of the PVC where the Romex cable enters the conduit to protect against any sort of damage to the cable sheath. Assuming that should be the proper protection for the cable at that entry point? I do have the 10/3 wire properly connected to the ground bus bar at the circuit breaker panel and at the outlet point. I confirmed proper grounding at both points via my multimeter, and confirmed that I indeed have 240 volts across both hots and 120 volts across either hot and the ground or neutral.

I am building a near 100% copy of Kals build which never pulls more than 24 amps per his experience, so I should stay within the 80% rule on draw capacity here. If I can finally get my Amp meter to cooperate on my panel, I will be able to confirm and monitor my amp draw on my outlet at all times to make sure I indeed stay within my goal of 24 Amps. Hopefully that will limit some of the concerns with heat build up and the like.

Finally moving into the new house this weekend, so this whole week is full of packing. Honestly is there anything worse than having to pack all your crap in to boxes? Going to be a long week. Hopefully I can get back to the important stuff next week!

Matt

 

[NattyBrew]

Another HUGE update for all the viewers out there. The project is moving along quite nicely this week as I've had more time to focus on the brewery build with less unpacking and organizing to do. Now that I am pretty much settled, its time to dive head first into the last half of my build!

Was able to finish the build of the March Pumps by adding the flexible wire guard and replacing the stock three prong plugs with the Leviton 120V locking plugs needed for connection to my control panel. Here they are all cleaned up and ready for their pump stand.

Next up was a quick and easy build of the pump stands, I just copied Kal's design here as I liked the idea of using the extra piece of stainless steel from the Blichmann Boilermakers as a sort of splash guard for the pumps. I haven't received the kettles yet due to the backorder at Blichmann but I went ahead and built the stands to proper specs to use the metal once it arrives.

 

[NattyBrew]

I got a nice little package of goodies from More Beer this week which allowed me to tackle the next piece, the plumbing of the counterflow chiller:

Plumbing up the counterflow chiller was quick and painless, just added a couple of fittings, a stainless "T", and a thermometer to monitor your wort temperature and you're done!

While I was in the plumbing mood, I went ahead and did a quick assembly of the silicone hoses. Here are all five hoses assembled and ready for use.

 

[NattyBrew]

After tackling some of the simpler projects, it was time to move on to more of a challenge and the last piece of wood working in my brewery build. I decided not to go the stainless steel hood route and just build my own out of a wood lined with several sections of FRP panels. The 4x8 sheets of white FRP I bought from Lowe's is an extremely common wall covering for bathrooms because of it stands up to tons of abuse and is suitable for wet conditions.

I think it will work well as a interior lining for my hood, will help protect the wood from all the steam and condensation which will be produced by the boil. First step in making the hood was to create a box shape which will be the frame of the hood. In an attempt to match the brew stand I went with two rectangles made out of 2x6 wood, stacked on top of each other to give my my 11" deep hood.

Here is the first square put together:

I used the same lag screws I used when building the stand to secure the box on the front side of the hood, again in an attempt to match the way my brew stand is built.

No need for the lag screws on the back side because you won't see them and I want the hood to be pressed right up against the wall to prevent any steam from escaping around the back. Just used wood screws here.

And here are the two rectangle stacked to show you the end shape I am am aiming for.

I was able to prop up the top section of the hood so I could mark where my floor joists are located. I have access to four floor joists above the span of my hood and will be tapping into all four to help carry the load of the hood.

 

[NattyBrew]

After marking where my floor joists were located, I took the top piece down and attached 2x4s across the top of the hood, so that I could use "L" brackets to attach the hood to each of the four floor joists. The 2x4s also serve as a method to attach the plywood which is laid into the bottom of the box. The two rectangles are attached to each other via 2.5" wood screws.

And here is the hood with the plywood sheathing installed and attached to the 2x4s seen in the picture above.

After assembling the hood frame, it was time to prep the hole where my 6" PVC exhaust tubing will enter the hood. I usually suck at cutting holes with a jig saw, but this ended up with a perfect fit!

Here are my two color options for staining all the wood involved in my brew stand, pump stand, hood, and mounting plate for the control panel.

My first option, and my favorite, is "New Redwood" from Cabat Stains

 

[NattyBrew]

And my second option, just plain old "Redwood" from Cabat Stains

And the final set of pics (I promise!!!!) are of the newly installed glass block window in my brew room which will be used for ventilation. I will be venting the steam out of the dryer vent seen in the top left corner, and allowing make up air back in through the fresh air ventilator in the middle. As discussed before I will be adding a "periscope" on the outside of the window similar to those seen on high efficiency furnace exhausts in order to get the hot and humid air up and away from my fresh air return.

Here's a shot of the new window from the inside

And a shot of the outside hours old cement and all!

Here's a shot from the side to give you all a better idea of my plan. A four inch PVC pipe will extend through the dryer vent, out to the edge of the house, taking a 90 degree bend upward with about another foot or so of pipe and then one last 90 degree bend back to horizontal with a screen on the end to keep the critters out! It should end up being about a 2-3 foot difference between the fresh air intake in the window and the top of the exhaust "periscope" which combined with the hot air exiting higher than the cold air return, should keep recirculation to a minimum.

I haven't decided 100% yet on the color of the stain, so feel free to share your opinions on which one you like better.

Happy Brewing!

Matt

 

[kal]

Nice work Matt!

You are indeed correct that you can make a hood out of just about anything that can withstand wet locations given that we're not exhausting grease. Looking forward to more pics!

Kal

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Very nice work; looking great.

Did you do the glass block window yourself?

 

[NattyBrew]

Very nice work; looking great.

Did you do the glass block window yourself?

Yes I did. It actually isn't nearly as hard as you think. Cincinnati Glass Block here in town sells complete windows which are assembled and ready to install. All you need to do is set the window, shim it to hold it in place, and then pipe in the mortar to hold it in place.

To be honest the hardest part was busting out the old glass block window! I felt horrible to destroy such a nice window, but the feeling quickly faded with the first swing on the hammer. Why is it so much fun destroying stuff?? :rockin:

 

[BrewBeemer]

To be honest the hardest part was busting out the old glass block window! I felt horrible to destroy such a nice window, but the feeling quickly faded with the first swing on the hammer. Why is it so much fun destroying stuff?? :rockin:

I spent over 7 hours years ago removing tank glass from a massive Spanish estate as the state purchased (legally stole) for a highway expansion project. With air tools and carbide blades removing grout I collected and sold the tank glass for over $3,000 cash. At over $400 an hour ($428) deducting for gas and cutters plus that that good feeling of saving old glass. Four antique Spanish style window bars with planter boxes, bolts removed with a grinder for another $2,400 of pocket money. Save for others for a new life Recycle!!!!

Your replacment tank glass looks sharp I must add.
The only thing I see the pipe reducers on your pumps plus the quick disconnect fittings which all add up to a massive pump inlet restriction plus what little performance your already dealing resulting in a weak pump output. This is worse than a bunch of sharp 90* fitting bends added on the outlet side of your pumps.

 

[NattyBrew]

Thanks for the input on the pumps, I am hoping that it really won't severely limit the pump output despite the reducer fitting. I am following the design that Kal uses in his own brewery in terms of plumbing and as far as I know he hasn't had any issues. Maybe he can chime in here with his own personal experience with this setup.

In the future if I start having flow problems I can look at some way to keep the 3/4" input on the March pumps, but for now until I run into issues I think it will stay the way it is.

Thanks for the heads up!

 

[BrewBeemer]

If you read manufactures pump specs they are under ideal running conditions with zero head minimum tubing length with sweeping bends, they want the maximum numbers vs the competition for sales. Think $$$$ here.
With you stepping down from 3/4" the pump inlet diameter to 1/2" you have already defeated the pump manufactures design as well its output performance numbers. Ask the pump manufacture if this inlet reduction is ok, if so why did the manufacture chose 3/4" inlet instead of 1/2" I must ask?
Example, 3/4" ID cross sectional area of 0.4417" sq/in, 1/2" ID cross sectional area of 0.1963 sq/in or reduced to .4444% in inlet area. Your call?
Not to be negative on your build your already dealing with a marginal pump in HP, flow as well pressure output. Your not dealing with 3/4 HP plenty of extra pressure and volume in reserve. Throw in every 90*, 45* or straight fitting plus the added resistance of your tubing this all adds up. Every fitting causes steps, resistance and turbulence.
I'll shut up I bet i'm already marked as a smart ass.

 

[NattyBrew]

Beemer,

No worries man, like I said before I appreciate the input. I don't even pretend to know it all when it comes to brewing, gear, etc. and am glad to get some knowledge and ideas from someone else. Like I said before, if I end up being severely disappointed with the flow from the pumps I am using in my setup I will look to change the fittings.

Until I have the whole brewery together and can run this thing through its paces I won't know whether the fittings I am using will truly limit my in any way. I know tons of people on this site use the March style pump to move their product while brewing, many with numerous fittings, maybe even more than mine, most without complaints.

For me its really a wait and see approach. If I get through my first brew session with the new rig and the pumps are taking FOREVER to move my liquids around I'll know exactly what to try and change. Thanks again for the heads up!

Matt

 

[NattyBrew]

More Updates!

I finished staining and sealing the brew stand yesterday, as well as the pump stand and backing plate for mounting the control panel. I also completed the build of my custom vent hood and with it all mounted its starting to look like a brewery!!

Here is a pic of the brew stand back in place with the stain applied. You can also see the pump stand stained and the march pumps mounted and ready for use.

Here is a pic of the control panel mounted to the backing plate and all wired up.

And a quick shot of the custom vent hood mounted to the joists above the brew stand. I went ahead and prepped a cut out for the six inch PVC exhaust tubing which will enter the front of the hood and be positioned directly over the boil kettle.

And lastly here is a shot of the inside of the hood which I lined with FRP panels. These panels are designed for wet locations, you see them as a very common covering in bathrooms, so it should stand up very well against the steam and condensation which will be collected in the hood. I most likely could have left the wood hood without the lining, but I figured the FRP would provide a very nice protection for the wood as well as a surface which would be easy to wipe down and clean. I think the whole hood turned out super nice!

As always stay posted for more too come. Next up is running a a new GFCI outlet to the wall near where the Vortex fan will be mounted to provide the power for the ventilation as well as the actual plumbing of the PVC exhaust. Stay tuned!

Matt

 

[hatfieldenator]

This is looking really good! Nice work. I wish I had the space to do a vent hood and stand like that!
Right now my brewery is in our "office/hobby room" So, it shares space with our dogs when we're not home and my parrot also.

 

[NattyBrew]

This is looking really good! Nice work. I wish I had the space to do a vent hood and stand like that!
Right now my brewery is in our "office/hobby room" So, it shares space with our dogs when we're not home and my parrot also.

It isn't the largest space in the world, the room is about 8' by 8' but it works for me. I am just super happy to have a place I could finally build the brewery in at all. Trying to go more advanced in an apartment is just down right impossible IMHO, and it's really cool to be able to dive head first into this. Thanks for the comments!

Matt

 

[NattyBrew]

A quick ventilation build update for everyone following along with the build. As I have discussed before, I am using PVC piping for my vent system due to its rigidity and just general ease to work with fitting, cutting, etc.

I took a dryer vent which I had installed in my new glass block window and modified it to accept my 4" PVC vent tube. Here it is all prepped with caulk to keep the tube exit to the exterior of the house weather tight. Had myself one of my new favorite beers while I worked, Vicious American Wheat IPA from North Peak Brewing Co.

Here is the interior run of the vent tubing all set and ready to go. I am using the same 6" 450 CFM Vortex Power Fan that Kal uses in his brewery so I have run 6" PVC from the hood all the way to the fan inlet.

The Vortex fan mounted as close as possible to the dryer vent outlet to maximize the portion of my run which maintains the 6" duct work. On the left is a 6" to 4" reducer coupling which attaches to the 4" PVC piece which runs through the window.

Backside shot of the 90 degree elbow and the mounted fan

PVC duct ended up lining right up with the hole I had prepped in the hood. Couldn't believe with my luck it fit the very first time and just perfectly! At least something went right on the first attempt!

 

[NattyBrew]

Moving on to the outside of the ventilation run now. I did a little bit if playing around with how the outside tubing was run trying to judge how much the airflow was reduced with the addition of a couple elbows and short length of tubing. As far as I could tell by the very scientific hand in front of the exhaust test, the airflow wasn't reduced much when comparing the set up I went with versus a pipe exiting straight out of the window.

So in order to make sure I didn't get any recirculation when I opened my vent window while brewing downstairs I went with the slightly extended periscope design seen on the exhaust and intake of high efficiency furnaces. If I notice a big issue with reduced airflow on my first boiling water test I can very easily limit the turns and tubing length on the exit in order to decrease the static pressure and maintain the efficiency of the fan.

Here are couple shots to give you the whole idea of my design I went with:

And last but not least I added a shower floor drain cap to the 4" piping to keep any critters out of the exhaust tubing. The last thing I would want it to fire up the fan on a brew day and hear some poor bird getting chopped to bits my fan!

I am really proud of how well this has all turned out so far, it pretty much has come together in real life the way I had envisioned it in my head. The next step is to go to work on the kettles, and as I progress there I will be sure to keep you all updated on my work.

Cheers!

Matt

 

[kal]

Looks good.

I would curve the exhaust outlet outside so that it faces downwards by at least 45 degrees if not completely down at 90 degrees. This will avoid getting rain/snow/etc into the tubing.


Kal

 

[NattyBrew]

Kal,

That's a good point and something I thought about. I guess at this point adding one more 90 degree bend to point the outlet back downwards couldn't hurt airflow too badly would it? I was hoping that just getting the tubing turned to the right and not opening straight up would be enough to solve any snow/rain issues but I can definitely see how it could still work itself in there with a horizontal opening.

Maybe I will run to Lowes today and grab one more 90 elbow and try it out. My total run is about 6 feet of 6" PVC, then the 6" to 4" reducer, then just a foot of 4" tubing. I know adding more 90 degree elbows increases static pressure, but I think this fan could handle it without to many ill effects.

 

[kal]

Exactly. The fan has excellent static pressure. An extra 90 degree elbow to have the exit point down isn't going to change anything.

 

[NattyBrew]

As of 5/15/2011 my electric brewery is 99.99% done!

WOOOOHOOO!!!

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, let's get down to business. First of all thanks to everyone on the forum here and anyone who posted positive comments and encouragement along the way. All your input has been extremely vital to the success of this build.

At the suggestion of Kal I went and grabbed myself a 45 degree street elbow to add to my exhaust so that rain/snow couldn't get into the pipe and cause me issues. Here are a few updated shots with the new 45 installed.

I do apologize for the lack of true "build" pictures of the kettles themselves, I didn't quite have the patience to take a break and snap any pictures as I was putting them all together. Also after wrangling the stainless coil for a couple hours my arms would have been too tired to hold the camera up in front of me! I did however manage to snap a picture of my jig I went with for coiling the tubing:

And last but not least, "The Flux Incapacitor" in all its completed glory!

 

[NattyBrew]

I will keep the commentary to a minimum from here on out and just post a series of pictures of the kettles themselves, but if anyone out there has any questions what-so-ever please just feel free to ask! Happy Brewing!

Matt

 

[NattyBrew]

 

[hatfieldenator]

Looks great! Now, start brewing!