NattyBrew's Electric Brewery Build

[NattyBrew]

Kal,

I had the same concerns as you. I will be extending a four inch diameter vent pipe through the dryer vent block, removing the louvers which come stock on the unit, and then adding a 90 degree elbow upwards. I plan on playing with the actual amount, but will be adding maybe another foot of pipe up and one more 90 degree to the right to finish it off with a screen on the end of the pipe.

Essentially I am mimicking the "periscope" design seen with the exhaust of high efficiency furnaces which allow the hot exhaust to vent up and away from the air intake which is usually located right next to the exhaust. Hopefully this will eliminate the recirculation problem. I plan to dry fit the outside pieces so I can play with different lengths and decide how to best balance the height of the "periscope" with the reduction in CFM of the Vortex fan the extra length will bring fan preventing circulation back in through the window vent. I drew up some plans in another thread which I can drag over here once I have real computer access to give you a better idea of what I was thinking.

Matt

 

[kal]

Essentially I am mimicking the "periscope" design seen with the exhaust of high efficiency furnaces which allow the hot exhaust to vent up and away from the air intake which is usually located right next to the exhaust. Hopefully this will eliminate the recirculation problem.

Excellent. That should work fine. Not even sure how high you'd need to go given that high efficiency furnaces don't exhaust as much heat as a brewing setup like this (which is the whole point of an hi-eff furnace!).

There's a not of moisture generated with my brewing setup so even just having a small 90 elbow pointing down on the intake may be all you need. As long as the in and out aren't completely hidden in a window well or something you shouldn't have air pooling going on.

I drew up some plans in another thread which I can drag over here once I have real computer access to give you a better idea of what I was thinking.

No need - found it!: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electric-brewery-ventilation-question-229091/

Kal

 

[greaper007]

Thanks! I was super pumped when my realtor showed me all the extra rooms that came with my brew room. Apparently it was part of some "housing package" special that they were running. I guess the deal was if you bought a brew room it came with three bedrooms, a bathroom, and even a kitchen! Pretty nice arrangement if you ask me

On a side note, anyone had experience learning how to solder copper plumbing on their own? I got a quote for what amounts to a 5 foot or so run of pipe so I can have a hose spigot for water in my brew room and it came out to $250-$300. I know the price of copper is super high, but for that much I think I might try and tackle it myself. Any advice from you DIYers out there??

Sweating copper is super easy. The hardest thing about it is getting the water out of the lines that you're sweating. I finally learned an old plumbers trick to help with that. Stick a piece of bread in the pipe and shove it up a few inches, it will soak up the water while you're heating the pipe and later disintegrate.

Otherwise the process is the same as any other soldering. Use flux and heat the pipe to the point that it melts the solder, not your torch.

I learned how to sweat pipes while working a construction job in college. We had a few carpenters that liked to use Columbian marching powder for workplace motivation. I was a glorified delivery driver, but I was often the only person on the job. When one of them went nuts with the nailgun and put a nail through a pipe, it was my job to learn how to solder a new piece in place. Luckily, the process was as easy at it looked.

 

[NattyBrew]

So a quick little update for everyone on the build. Progress has been slow but steady as I've tried my best to balance other pre-move in projects in the new house with progress on brewery. To be honest I keep finding myself coming up with reasons to to switch back to brewery....weird right? I don't know where my priorities are at.

Anyway, I got all the new electric run today for the brewery which was a royal PITA thanks to my finished basement. Super glad I have the extra downstairs space but damn, fishing wire through a finished ceiling is some super finicky work. I was able to get it run after a couple of hours struggling with some steel fish tape and some ingenuity and scrap wood I had on hand. Here's the 10/3 wire waiting for some conduit be run!

I also went with the Shark Bite fittings as a solution for running a cold water line to the new wall in my brew room. Honestly these things were hands down the simplest thing I've ever done. Gotta love inventions like which make projects SUPER simple!

Here is a shot of the new wall which I built, anchored to the concrete floor via wedge anchors which will provide some separation between the utilities and my brew room. You can also see a little bit of the water line rough in completed.

I will be covering the wall with 1/2" plywood sheeting and then some simple paneling I got for free from a friend who had some leftover from another project. It isn't the prettiest stuff, but it will work for now.

A close shot of the Shark Bite Drop Elbow and hose bib temporarily attached for testing purposes. I will be drilling a hole on the plywood/paneling and attaching the hose bib permanently once both layers of wall coverings are on.

A shot of the Shark Bite "T" fitting I used to tap into the existing cold water line and PEX tubing used to run the water.

One more shot of the plumbing rough in:

And now, for the brew stand and vent hood!

I didn't mention that is wasn't built yet did I? Oh well. More to come this week hopefully, including covering the separation wall, finishing of the electrical, and hopefully some ACTUAL progress on the brew stand.

As always, stay tuned and thanks for following!

Matt

 

[NattyBrew]

Another update with some Saturday progress made on my build. I am officially moving into the new house this coming weekend, so most of the build stuff will be put on the back burner this week with all the packing and moving prep work I will have to do. Moving sucks, you don't know how much crap you have until you have to pack it all in boxes

Anyway, here are a couple shots of the brewery with the new wall and electrical completed. The 10/3 wire was run in PVC conduit on the wall, which ended up being a royal pain without wire pulling lube. I thought I could get this ~10 foot run without the lube cross, so was not the case. You'll notice I changed hose bibbs to a ball style, quarter turn which I though would be easier to use than the one I had on. I know I take WAY too many pictures but I figure its better to document the build well so anyone out there interested can have all the looks they want.

 

[NattyBrew]

I also was able to get started on the stand build today, which despite a few horrible measurements on my part (carpentry is NOT my number one skill) came together pretty well. I think my main problem tends to be that whole measure twice, cut once mantra. I tend to eyeball, cut, curse when it doesn't fit, then re-cut. Not the most efficient, I know!

Here is the wood for the stand all pre-cut and waiting to be assembled:

And here is a shot of all the major components put together, minus the slats for the shelving of course. Even considering this thing will be holding several hundred pounds of liquid and grain, this thing is built like a tank.

Here is my Kal-esque build shot, though since my build was going down at 9 am it doesn't involve a beer but rather a starbucks coffee. Wait a second, beer would have been fine after 9....what was I thinking?

And of course the completed product in its new home!

My plan for the conduit run went nicely, the electric ended up right where I wanted it with the brew stand tucked in against the wall. You can also see the water tap with easy access for filling the HLT which will be the pot on the far left on my stand. It will be really nice to have a fill tap right there for the brewery, even though I am not including a sink due to space in my room.

 

[NattyBrew]

And the last chunk of my picture dump update....

With the electric all run, and brew stand built I finally have a temporary home for my control panel. Here she is plugged and and fired up for the first time. I had a small issue with the Amp and Volt meter tripping my GFCI constantly so ignore the numbers displayed as they aren't properly hooked up for now.

Shot of the bottom with the temp probes plugged in for programming and calibration purposes:

And here she is all lit up! Such a dorky/awesome moment to hear the "clunk" of the relay and watch all the lights come on.

And lastly I had a little time to plumb the March Pumps up. I didn't have the motivation to struggle with the Chinese Finger Trap braiding for the cord and plug, so I left that for another time, but here are a couple of shots of the pumps with the QD fittings and ball valves.

Again, sorry for the picture bombardment, I just had a lot of catching up to do! Happy brewing and look for more to come!

 

[kernal74]

Another update with some Saturday progress made on my build. I am officially moving into the new house this coming weekend, so most of the build stuff will be put on the back burner this week with all the packing and moving prep work I will have to do. Moving sucks, you don't know how much crap you have until you have to pack it all in boxes

Anyway, here are a couple shots of the brewery with the new wall and electrical completed. The 10/3 wire was run in PVC conduit on the wall, which ended up being a royal pain without wire pulling lube. I thought I could get this ~10 foot run without the lube cross, so was not the case. You'll notice I changed hose bibbs to a ball style, quarter turn which I though would be easier to use than the one I had on. I know I take WAY too many pictures but I figure its better to document the build well so anyone out there interested can have all the looks they want.

Not to rain on your parade but pulling romex through pvc is not the proper way to run it. Should have use stranded 10 g wire. Easier to pull and more "to code".

 

[rico567]

A great job, and impressive documentation. I'm to the point where it would be really nice to get out of the garage and off propane, and I've got a basement available. Running a water supply and a 240V circuit hold no terrors for me, as I've done both before, and the actual electric element in a pot is simple. But, sadly, the controls and all the rest of it are just too much -whether I go DIY or boughten- for someone who does <100 gal. per year.

 

[starrbrew]

Again, sorry for the picture bombardment, I just had a lot of catching up to do! Happy brewing and look for more to come!

Keep the pic dump comming! Looking good! :rockin:

 

[NattyBrew]

Not to rain on your parade but pulling romex through pvc is not the proper way to run it. Should have use stranded 10 g wire. Easier to pull and more "to code".

Well according to the NEC code, it actually is. Not trying to come off as "high and mighty here" but I did a good chunk of research on code before tackling this project to make sure I am at least attempting to make my wiring code compliant and I am pretty sure I did good!

Here is the section on exposed wiring in conduit, in unfinished basements:

334.15 Exposed Work. In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) through (C).

(A) To Follow Surface. Cable shall closely follow the surface of the building finish or of running boards.

(B) Protection from Physical Damage. Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, or other approved means. Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, or other approved means extending at least 150 mm (6 in.) above the floor. Type NMC cable installed in shallow chases in masonry, concrete, or adobe, shall be protected and covered with plaster, adobe, or similar finish.

(C) In Unfinished Basements. Where cable is run at angles with joists in unfinished basements it shall be permissible to secure cables not smaller than two 6 AWG or three 8 AWG conductors directly to the lower edges of the joists. Smaller cables shall be run either through bored holes in joists or on running boards. NM cable on wall of an unfinished basement shall be permitted to be installed in a listed conduit or tubing or shall be protected in accordance with 300.4. Conduit or tubing shall be provided with a suitable insulating bushing or adapter at the point the cable enters the raceway. The NM cable sheath shall extend through the conduit or tubing and into the outlet or device box not less than 6 mm (1&#8260;4 in.). The cable shall be secured within 300 mm (12 in.) of the point where the cable enters the conduit or tubing. Metal conduit, tubing, and metal outlet boxes shall be connected to an equipment-grounding conductor.

Thanks for all the post guys, more to come. :rockin:

 

[Sparky]

NB,

Sorry, but you should have run single, stranded (THWN) through that pipe, not romex.
Take a look at the code again, look at the marking on your romex, and then you will know why.

Also, you should have run EMT, not PVC in the exposed area. I won't go into all the reasons why EMT is used, but not sure why you used PVC? Even then, your PVC would need to be schedule 80 for your use.

Also, is flex (plumbing) allowed? Not in my area... in yours?

Panel and other stuff looks great. Ventilation will be important!

 

[NattyBrew]

Well I stand corrected, without having to crack open my copy of the NEC, what's the reason/section for pulling stranded wife through the conduit and not Romex? Wouldn't the wire be "extra" protected inside the romex jacket? To fix could I pull the wire back the wire back out of the conduit, remove the sheath, and re-feed?

I went with PVC because I figured it to be a little easier to work and to be honest I kind of liked the look better than shiny EMT. The PVC I used is schedule 80, so assuming there are any really back effects from not using EMT, I hope I would be ok there.

Thanks for the insight Sparky, the NEC code book is huge and I thought I had cited the right section for my setup. Obviously I need to read back up! Thanks for keeping me straight and sorry to the previous poster it sounds like you were right!

Matt

 

[Sparky]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your post and looks like you have a great build!

The romex-in-conduit issue has to do (mainly) with heat. Romex is typically a couple single coated wires, with a paper wrap, AND the outer sheath - containing all the wires.

The (main) issue is that while running romex through conduit adds an extra layer of protection, it restricts the romex another layer. Depending on the size of the conduit, the romex may be more or less restrictive (air space around the wire). Wires do produce heat, depending upon the size/length/amps, etc. That heat can cause issues such as degradation of the system, in various ways.

Other reasons are the sheath & wire ratings of the romex, etc. Sometimes these are in wet locations and that romex paper sheath turns into a soggy, degenerating clump.

But, you should be fine since it is indoor and not a big run + (wow!) you used schedule 80 (not cheap!).

I hope I did not sound snarky in my earlier response and I look forward to more pictures of your build!

 

[milldoggy]

Edit - nonsense, sorry.

Sparky, what about derating? Is that only when you have more than 3 current carry wires?

 

[Sparky]

Sparky, what about derating? Is that only when you have more than 3 current carry wires?

Yes! Quite a few derating factors:
- more than 3 current conductors
- conduit fill
- wire type
- run length
- loads
- etc.

So many things to consider. But, overall, proper grounding goes a long way.
"Ding-ding, time for show-and-tell"

Okay, speaking of safe electrical practices, here is a photo of a cheap GFCI outlet, that was wired properly (breaker did NOT trip), getting too much condensation:


Okay, I'll probably get banned for going OT or drinking martinis (again).

 

[NattyBrew]

I hope I did not sound snarky in my earlier response and I look forward to more pictures of your build!

No Sparky, not a problem at all. I am by no means a professional electrician, and do not assume I know all the rules. I am glad to get corrected from someone who knows better than me about this stuff. Like I said, my intentions are there in terms of reading the NEC code book and trying to keep things to code, but obviously I am not going to get everything right.

Considering that I used Schedule 80 PVC, I think I am going to go ahead and leave the Romex run through the conduit unless anyone else harps in and says this is a big time danger thing. The run is short (less than 10 ft. in the conduit) so I hope the heat issue you spoke of won't be a big problem.

For my future knowledge, and in case I choose to re-run this, I would need to do the following:

1) Terminate the Romex wire in a PVC junction box.
2) Tail in four individual strands of 10 AWG THWN with wire caps in the junction box.
3) Proceed to run the stranded wire through the conduit to my outlet.

Am I correct here? Thanks as always for the advice Sparky, and everyone else for that matter, keeping people safe!

Happy brewing and more to come!

Matt

 

[milldoggy]

Is your entire run of cable in conduit? if not, I thought conduit and romex is safe and in code.

if it makes you feel better, I ran 8 gauge romex in 1 1/4 pvc(gray stuff, think it is 80) for 18 feet. I brewed twice and no fire. the conduit stays cool.

 

[NattyBrew]

No, the entire run is not in conduit. The total run length from panel to my outlet is right at 50 feet of wire, with the final 10 feet or less being in the conduit seen in my pics above. I think I am going to leave it the way it is for now, romex in the schedule 80 PVC since it's such a short run. I know that it probably falls a little short of code, so a small slap on the wrist for me there.

Thanks for all the insight Sparky and Mild, it's much appreciated! I really enjoy how much people with the right knowledge look at for others on this site most of the time. Good stuff!

Matt

 

[Feurhund]

Does this 10/3 wire need to be in a conduit running inside a wall or under the floor joists in an unoccupied crawl space. That would be my path to my brewing wall from the laundry room dryer outlet on my first floor. Thanks and sorry for piggybacking, but it is in the same vein.

 

[milldoggy]

Since it is not the entire run, I think it is fill factor that does not matter, not romex, but my uneducated guess is you are fine.

 

[NattyBrew]

Just a quick update for those of you out there interested. It sounds like the section of code I quoted before applies to "sleeving" Romex cable for protection purposes which is allowed under a grey section of the NEC.

I called city of Cincinnati inspection office and was told that sleeving romex wire is allowed as long as the run is short, and indeed not a completely enclosed conduit system. I was told this is used a lot in basements where wire is run in the joists of the ceiling above, to a wall, and then down the surface of a concrete wall to a surface mounted outlet and/or switch. The guy I spoke to on the phone said that it depends on what inspector you would get as to whether sleeving would get picked on or not. He said that personally in my situation, he would rather see the Romex cable sleeved in the proper conduit than simply run down the wall to my receptacle unprotected.

So it sounds like as long as I am using the proper conduit, EMT or Schedule 80 in my case, and I am adhering to the conduit fill guidelines (which I believe I am with one 10/3 romex wire in my conduit), and securing the wire within 12 inches of the entrance into the conduit sleeve I should be a-ok.

Matt

 

[milldoggy]

Btw, what size is that conduit? 1 1/4 inch?

 

[NattyBrew]

It's actually only 1/2" conduit, which after some worried research today I think is too small. I found that the cross sectional area of 10-3 romex is supposedly .1399 square inches with a max fill rule per NEC at .161 square inches based one one wire, at 53% fill. This is also using the assumption that:

A multiconductor cable of two or more conductors shall be treated as a single conductor for calculating percentage conduit fill area. For cables that have elliptical cross sections, the cross-sectional area calculation shall be based on using the major diameter of the ellipse as a circle diameter.

Per the numbers it looks fine, but I can't confirm the cross sectional area of the romex anywhere else.

At this point I am seriously considering taking down my work and re-running with all the points that have been brought up. If I did that I may end up going with EMT of the proper size, THHN connectors in the conduit, etc. and just get this thing right on code.

 

[trevor_b]

Wonderful build! Subscribed.

 

[phidelt1499]

Great build! I have one question though, if you have ran 10/3 wire to your outlet, how are you grounding the 240V? With 10/3 you would have hot/hot/neutral, right? I thought grounding through the neutral was a no-no anymore...

The reason I noticed this, is that I'm building an electric setup myself and in my old (built early 70s) house, I have a 50A 240V outlet already in the garage, but it's the old NEMA 10 outlet, not the NEMA 14 (clothes dryer), thus I'm missing a ground and contemplating a re-wire with 10/4 wire.

 

[NattyBrew]

10/3 wire is the common name for wire with 3 conductors and a ground wire. Its a pretty common confusion because the "3" refers only to the conductors and doesn't count the ground. So in my application, my 10/3 romex actually has four wires: red (hot), black (hot), white (neutral), and bare copper (ground).

Matt

 

[milldoggy]

Great build! I have one question though, if you have ran 10/3 wire to your outlet, how are you grounding the 240V? With 10/3 you would have hot/hot/neutral, right? I thought grounding through the neutral was a no-no anymore...

The reason I noticed this, is that I'm building an electric setup myself and in my old (built early 70s) house, I have a 50A 240V outlet already in the garage, but it's the old NEMA 10 outlet, not the NEMA 14 (clothes dryer), thus I'm missing a ground and contemplating a re-wire with 10/4 wire.

You might want to check your garage plug. Shut off the power and open it up, you might find the fourth wire, ground, tied to the box.

 

[milldoggy]

It's actually only 1/2" conduit, which after some worried research today I think is too small. I found that the cross sectional area of 10-3 romex is supposedly .1399 square inches with a max fill rule per NEC at .161 square inches based one one wire, at 53% fill. This is also using the assumption that:

A multiconductor cable of two or more conductors shall be treated as a single conductor for calculating percentage conduit fill area. For cables that have elliptical cross sections, the cross-sectional area calculation shall be based on using the major diameter of the ellipse as a circle diameter.

Per the numbers it looks fine, but I can't confirm the cross sectional area of the romex anywhere else.

At this point I am seriously considering taking down my work and re-running with all the points that have been brought up. If I did that I may end up going with EMT of the proper size, THHN connectors in the conduit, etc. and just get this thing right on code.

No where close to an expert, but I think fill does not apply since you are using conduit for protection. Did you fish the wire through or push it? How many 90's you have. Again no expert.

 

[phidelt1499]

You might want to check your garage plug. Shut off the power and open it up, you might find the fourth wire, ground, tied to the box.

Yeah, I did that at first. No ground. Just two hots and a neutral. I have a friend who is a licensed electrician so we'll probably just run new wire.