Name That Infection

[Edcculus]

Unfortunately, I've joined the ranks with my first "My Infection" thread. First off, I need some help identifying what it is.

Background:
I brewed a sMAsH with Maris Otter and Amarillo. I then split it into two batches. I used Wyeast 1056 with one and Scottish Ale yest on the other. I made a starter for both so fermentation would start faster. Both have been in the primary for 4 weeks. I was planning on bottling this week and noticed the infection a few days ago. The infection is with the Scottish Ale Yeast.


Recommendations? I probably won't dump, unless its ebola. I just wanted to know the nature of the infection so I could figure out a corse of action.
I'm figuring if it is mold, I'll rack it out of the moldy top and bottle. If it is a bacteria infection, I could either bottle and let age, or rack off of the yeast cake and age.


Here is the half with Wyeast 1056 for comparison:

 

[twobrosbrewin]

I would be interested in finding out what that is as well. I have the beginings of what looks to be very similar in a bock that had problems starting fermentation. It actually started right after I took a hydro reading, think I might have introduced something when I broke the airlock seal.

 

[Revvy]

All that looks like to me is post krauzen fizzy yeast colonies, though it is hard to tell...in other words, normal beer.....Don't Dump

Or Co2 trapped in some remaining krauzen and making slimy looking bubbles.....


And Twobros...it's doubtful that you have an infection either....there is a co2 cushion protecting your beer even if you get a blowoff....if you sanitized the theif or turkey baster than more than likely everything is fine...

People (including me) have stuck their unsanitized arm into their buckets to fish something that has fallen into it, and had our beer turned out fine...

Your beer is much stronger than you two give it credit....

 

[twobrosbrewin]

That's refreshing, we do sanitize everything. I guess my concern is that fermentation has not started and its been in the fermenter for 9 days. We have more yeast coming tomorrow and I'm going to make a starter. Guess the nerves are getting to me because its been so long with no activity. Hopefully whatever is forming on the surface in either CO2 or yeast and not something else.
Side question... would lager yeast still form colonies on the surface in primary fermentation?? I was under the impression that I wouldn't seen that from a lager yeast strain.

 

[Revvy]

That's refreshing, we do sanitize everything. I guess my concern is that fermentation has not started and its been in the fermenter for 9 days. We have more yeast coming tomorrow and I'm going to make a starter. Guess the nerves are getting to me because its been so long with no activity. Hopefully whatever is forming on the surface in either CO2 or yeast and not something else.
Side question... would lager yeast still form colonies on the surface in primary fermentation?? I was under the impression that I wouldn't seen that from a lager yeast strain.

Have you taken a hydro reading in the last 9 days??? That is the only way to tell whether or not fermentation has occured....There really is no other way, no other method to say whether or not it has occured...airlock activity is NOT a way to tell...

Read this, I kinda explain...http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/Revvy/Think_evaluation_before_action/

I can't answer about lager yeasts, since I have pretty much hated every lager I tasted, so I never have seen lager fermentation...but I do know that whether or not the yeast is top forming...CO2 still rises, and therefore will lift stuff up to the surface with it....

 

[kjones]

Edcculus, hey you are right near me. I live in seneca

 

[twobrosbrewin]

Have you taken a hydro reading in the last 9 days??? That is the only way to tell whether or not fermentation has occured....There really is no other way, no other method to say whether or not it has occured...airlock activity is NOT a way to tell...

QUOTE]

Yeah we took a hydro reading at day 7, no change. OG was 1.056 and the one at day 7 was 1.062. Some temp differences I think are responsible for the higher reading on day 7 and it probably was not mixed enough on the first reading(partial boil).
I was worried that I could have introduced something when I took the second hydro reading. I am still keeping the faith alive I just wish I still didn't have several days to go before I can get a yeast starter in there. Also we tasted it and it tasted great(as far as worts go) so I'm really hoping that nothing goes wrong before I get that starter in there.

 

[Edcculus]

All that looks like to me is post krauzen fizzy yeast colonies, though it is hard to tell...in other words, normal beer.....Don't Dump

Or Co2 trapped in some remaining krauzen and making slimy looking bubbles.....


And Twobros...it's doubtful that you have an infection either....there is a co2 cushion protecting your beer even if you get a blowoff....if you sanitized the theif or turkey baster than more than likely everything is fine...

People (including me) have stuck their unsanitized arm into their buckets to fish something that has fallen into it, and had our beer turned out fine...

Your beer is much stronger than you two give it credit....

Hmm, i've never thought of that. I was leaning toward mold since its fuzzy. I wasn't planning on dumping unless it tasted funky, which could be a good thing depending on the funk-ifying agent. I mainly wanted to know what I was dealing with.

To be honest, I was almost hoping for a brett/lacto infection. I've been wanting to do a sour beer for a while now.

Edcculus, hey you are right near me. I live in seneca

Cool! I've been running into a lot of people from the area on here recently.

 

[Kai]

Looks almost identical to the mold infection I had recently.

I don't have a good picture (just fuzzy cell phone video) but I bottled anyway. Wasn't able to rack cleanly from beneath (some got mixed in). My bottles have a tiny bit of a skin, but flavour is totally unaffected. It's good.

If the skin develops into full mold, I might pour it through a tea strainer. It's a wit so that degassing shouldn't be so bad.

 

[z987k]

it's mold.

 

[denimglen]

I've had the same thing a couple of times.

I'd say it's mold, I'm no brewing expert but that (and the similar ones I've had) look nothing like yeast. Too white and furry/stringy vs browish and creamy.

The most recent one I had was kegged, it tasted fine, one of the better beers I've made actually haha.

 

[Revvy]

I've had the same thing a couple of times.

I'd say it's mold, I'm no brewing expert but that (and the similar ones I've had) look nothing like yeast. Too white and furry/stringy vs browish and creamy.

The most recent one I had was kegged, it tasted fine, one of the better beers I've made actually haha.

Yeah, if it is mold (and I still maintain that I can't tell by the photos) then just rack out from under it, and sample...usually the beer is fine because the mold is only on the surface.

denimglen, there's ONE beer I bet you you won't be able to recreate.

 

[menschmaschine]

Yeah, that doesn't look good. I'm thinking something from the fungal family as well and not a yeast. It doesn't really look bacterial, but I'm not experienced in beer infections.

 

[Revvy]

Yeah, that doesn't look good. I'm thinking something from the fungal family as well and not a yeast. It doesn't really look bacterial, but I'm not experienced in beer infections.

There really aren't that many, especially since no know pathogen can exist in beer....Last year when I was googling for info on pathogens in beer, I came across the microbiologist/homebrewer railing against a fellow brewer (it was on one of those "color coded" brewboards where they are a little less friendly than we are.) I just cut and pasted it and stuck it in a file...here it is.

Can you get a PATHOGEN from beer. No. NO *NO* Did I make that clear? You have a ZERO chance of pathogens in beer, wine, distilled beverages. PERIOD!

Pathogens are described as organisms that are harmful and potentially life threatening to humans. These are some 1400+ known species overall encompasing viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and helminths. Of that group, we are only interested in those that can be foodborne. Quite simply, if it can't survive in food, it isn't in beer. That knocks out all but bacteria and fungi. Viruses need very specific circumstances to be passed around... like on the lip of a glass or bottle, not the beer in it. **Ahhh...CHOOO!**

Pathogens as a rule are very fastidious beasts. Meaning that they want very specific temperatures, acidity, nutrients and other conditions to thrive.

Bacteria that *could* live in wort, cannot survive even a little bit of fermentation. There are several reasons for this. One is in the 'magic' of hops. It is the isomerized alpha acids that provide a preservative effect to the beer, which happens to inhibit pathogens! Good deal for fresh wort!

Another reason is the drop in pH from fermentation. Next, yeast emit their own enzymes and byproducts, all in an effort to make the environment hostile to other creatures. The major one is alcohol, of course, but their enzymes will break down less vigorous organisms and they become sources of trace nutrition. Now the latter is very minor compared to the effect of alcohol, but it exists! Most of the time these enzymes work on the wort, not organisms until late in the process. Good deal for beer! ...uh, wine too.

Oh, Botulism specifically... did you know that this is an anaerobic pathogen? It's toxin is one of the few that is broken down by boiling. Did you know tht it is strongly inhibited by isomerized alpha acids, even in water? Since fresh wort has a healthy amount of oxygen in it, the beastie cannot even get started, then once the O2 is used up, it doesn't have a chance against the hops or the yeast.

All that is left are a handful of acid producing bacteria that'll ruin a batch of beer. Overall, there are less than 200 organisms that can survive in beer and lend flavor effects. None of these for very long, or very often. Lambic being the sole exception, and if pathogens *could* survive, that'd be the style where you find 'em.

So besides mold, there is probably what, acetobactor, lambic, pedo....Evan might know the names of the different strains...I'm not sure if Rossalaire (is a type of yeast strain, or a bacteria strain.)

 

[bull8042]

So besides mold, there is probably what, acetobactor, lambic, pedo....

That type only goes after the really young beers, right?!?!

 

[Revvy]

That type only goes after the really young beers, right?!?!

[youtube]E0PIdWdw15U[/youtube]

 

[denimglen]

...denimglen, there's ONE beer I bet you you won't be able to recreate.

Nah, I can't recreate any of them haha.

It was Dude's (I think) Celebration Ale clone. I think the dry hopping let just enough oxygen and just enough mold spores in to kick off. It was fine for about 3 weeks before I dry hopped and then appeared about 5 days after hopping IIRC.

 

[stevenryals]

great thread.. this is why my infection looked like.. basically

 

[nothreat]

I am curious how this beer turned out. After years of brewing extract and all grain and roughly 250 gallons of beer, I finally had an infection that looked exactly like this one. It was in a rye ale I brewed and it started about three weeks into the secondary. I noticed a tiny little fly on the bucket lid and opened it to find an infection on the surface. I went ahead and kegged (lost about a gallon) and tasted it. It tastes fine, but I am worried that I just transferred the infection to my keg. Did your beer work out or did you have to dump it.