My water is screwed

[Mack]

Looks like I'm going to have to invest in an RO system... way too much sodium in my water - even after running it with the softener bypassed... I'm guessing the county adds sodium to try to soften our hard water...

Anyone have any suggestions besides RO water?

pH 8.1
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 461
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.77
Cations / Anions, me/L 7.0 / 6.9
ppm
Sodium, Na 155
Potassium, K 1
Calcium, Ca 3.9
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 14
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.6 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S < 1
Chloride, Cl 90
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 261
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 217
Total Phosphorus, P 0.36
Total Iron, Fe 0.04

"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

 

[MaxStout]

In the meantime you can buy bulk RO water from the dispenser at the grocery store. Then decide which RO system you need. Check out Buckeye Hydro, they are a Homebrewtalk sponsor.

 

[jdauria]

Yikes I thought my sodium was bad at 99 ppm.

 

[shoengine]

That is a busy water report. Wholeheartedly agree with @MaxStout

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Alkalinity/bicarb through the roof! Feed softened water to an RO.

 

[rlrohan]

Are the water test results you have from water that has gone through the softener or water before the softener?

 

[Mack]

Are the water test results you have from water that has gone through the softener or water before the softener?

These results are with the water softener bypassed, the water ran for 10 minutes (faucet is less than 10 feet of water line run from softener to faucet), and then filled sample bottle. I made an initial post about my water quality before I had me results back, and have since discovered my water was definitely the culprit in my beers tasting "wheaty", which apparently my palate translates "salty" to.

 

[Mack]

Alkalinity/bicarb through the roof! Feed softened water to an RO.

Do you recommend the softened water, or bypassed water thru the RO, or does it even matter? My RO system will arrive tomorrow, and I plan on plumbing it into a custom cart in the garage (existing washing machine supply with 1/4 inch lines for an ice machine already available).

 

[mac_1103]

That's not water; it's a bicarbonate buffered salt solution.

 

[rlrohan]

These results are with the water softener bypassed, the water ran for 10 minutes (faucet is less than 10 feet of water line run from softener to faucet), and then filled sample bottle. I made an initial post about my water quality before I had me results back, and have since discovered my water was definitely the culprit in my beers tasting "wheaty", which apparently my palate translates "salty" to.

I don’t see where you would need a salt type softener. I agree with needing an RO unit for your beer. As for the water coming into your house from your water supply, I would look for help from an expert in your area for advice on treating your water for household use. The RO system made all the difference for my beers, but I have very hard water. I’m sure RO water and then adjust salts as needed will make all the difference for you also.

 

[Mack]

I can assure you the water is hard. Without the softener, my water is slick as oil. Reminds me of being in Fallon, NV 20 years ago in the Navy. Could be my water lines have just become coated with water softener sludge over the last several years... Regardless, I'm installing a mobile RO system in the next week or so...

 

[rlrohan]

I can assure you the water is hard. Without the softener, my water is slick as oil. Reminds me of being in Fallon, NV 20 years ago in the Navy. Could be my water lines have just become coated with water softener sludge over the last several years... Regardless, I'm installing a mobile RO system in the next week or so...

Looking at your water report which looks like a Ward labs report, yours says "Total Hardness, CaCO3 14". My Ward labs report says "Total Hardness, CaCO3 457". My water is very hard. Do you see why I am saying that I don't think you need a softener? Just my opinion. The RO system will help the beer for sure, but you do have a water problem.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Do you recommend the softened water, or bypassed water thru the RO, or does it even matter? My RO system will arrive tomorrow, and I plan on plumbing it into a custom cart in the garage (existing washing machine supply with 1/4 inch lines for an ice machine already available).

Feed softened water to the RO

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Looking at your water report which looks like a Ward labs report, yours says "Total Hardness, CaCO3 14". My Ward labs report says "Total Hardness, CaCO3 457". My water is very hard. Do you see why I am saying that I don't think you need a softener? Just my opinion. The RO system will help the beer for sure, but you do have a water problem.

So the question is, what are the units associated with the "14"?

If the units are mg/L or ppm... the water is really soft
If the units are grains per gallon (gpg), then the water is very hard.

 

[Mack]

@rlrohan I'm not disagreeing with you, what I was implying is that I have crap from my water softener lining my water lines. I've experienced this with my ice machine (even after water filters) getting the salty looking sludge blocking the water lines. I can only assume the gunk is in my water pipes.

@Buckeye_Hydro the results are in ppm. I concur very soft, which leads me to believe my "bypass" was neither non effective, or the lines are at fault.

I have a hose bib on the house that comes straight of the city main, but I didn't really wanna spend another $40 to get it tested.... I assume the RO system will fix the crappy water I have regardless of the source. I have a near lifetime supply of water salts, so might as well go that route.

 

[rlrohan]

So the question is, what are the units associated with the "14"?

If the units are mg/L or ppm... the water is really soft
If the units are grains per gallon (gpg), then the water is very hard.

The units are ppm. Sorry I left that out. It did say ppm on posters report, but the formatting maybe didn't make it clear.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

@rlrohan I'm not disagreeing with you, what I was implying is that I have crap from my water softener lining my water lines. I've experienced this with my ice machine (even after water filters) getting the salty looking sludge blocking the water lines. I can only assume the gunk is in my water pipes.

@Buckeye_Hydro the results are in ppm. I concur very soft, which leads me to believe my "bypass" was neither non effective, or the lines are at fault.

I have a hose bib on the house that comes straight of the city main, but I didn't really wanna spend another $40 to get it tested.... I assume the RO system will fix the crappy water I have regardless of the source. I have a near lifetime supply of water salts, so might as well go that route.

Call your water utility and ask them what the water hardness is.

 

[rlrohan]

I agree you should call the water utility and get the hardness as Buckeye_Hydro said. And also get a home water hardness test kit and test the water at the bib, just to verify. If the water to the bib is coming straight from the main then you can get a true hardness reading. There are plenty cheap hardness test strips on Amazon. I know they are not 100% accurate but they are in the ballpark, and if they are close to the hardness the utility gives you then you know it should be true and if it disagrees with the ward report then you do have a pipe, bypass, or softener issue.

 

[mac_1103]

Total Hardness, CaCO3 14
...
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 217

Can someone who knows more about water reports than I do please explain how hardness and alkalinity, both expressed as CaCO3 ppm, be so wildly different.

 

[Mack]

@mac_1103 I understood alkalinity to be a measurement rather than a considered value. Based on the formula for total alkalinity ≈ 50.0435(Ca/20.039 + Mg/12.153 + Na/22.99 - Cl/35.453 - SO4/48.031).

My results are 219ish, based off of using a quantity of "0" for and SO4.

 

[mac_1103]

I understood alkalinity to be a measurement rather than a considered value.

I think you mean to say that alkalinity is calculated while the other values are directly measured. Which is all well and good but doesn't really answer my question so I will rephrase based on your comment - how is it possible to measure 14 ppm CaCO3 (hardness) and then calculate 217 ppm CaCO3 (alkalinity)? If hardness is also a calculated value based on a different formula, then how do we reconcile such different results for parameters that are reported in the same units of the same compound?

 

[Mack]

To wrap this up, I purchased a PureDrop RTW5 RO system from Amazon, as well as an additional 14 gallon tank. I've mounted the faucet that comes with the system to a simple 2x4 base that sits beside my washing machine (I brew in the garage). I already had an ice machine in the garage and was able to utilize the existing water line that fed that with a splitter and an additional tee fitting, and a shut-off valve. This allows me to use 10+ gallons of RO water for brew day, as well as having an on-demand "non-RO" water supply for cleaning and such.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

To wrap this up, I purchased a PureDrop RTW5 RO system from Amazon, as well as an additional 14 gallon tank. I've mounted the faucet that comes with the system to a simple 2x4 base that sits beside my washing machine (I brew in the garage). I already had an ice machine in the garage and was able to utilize the existing water line that fed that with a splitter and an additional tee fitting, and a shut-off valve. This allows me to use 10+ gallons of RO water for brew day, as well as having an on-demand "non-RO" water supply for cleaning and such.

Some suggestions for you on your new RO system:
1. Add a pressure gauge add on kit and an inline TDS meter. Without these two you are flying blind re understanding system performance and when to change your membrane.
2. When it comes time to change your prefilters (the three across the bottom), assuming here you do not have chloramine in your water
*upgrade to a 1 micron sediment filter rather than a 5 micron
*in place of the middle filter, upgrade to a 0.5 micron Chlorine Grabber
*in place of your prefilter on the far left put a 5 mic carbon block (the Workman)

If you want to save on water use and have more pure water in the tank, you could also add a permeate pump.

If you do have chloramine in your water there are different prefilters I can recommend.

Russ

 

[Mack]

Some suggestions for you on your new RO system:
1. Add a pressure gauge add on kit and an inline TDS meter. Without these two you are flying blind re understanding system performance and when to change your membrane.
2. When it comes time to change your prefilters (the three across the bottom), assuming here you do not have chloramine in your water
*upgrade to a 1 micron sediment filter rather than a 5 micron
*in place of the middle filter, upgrade to a 0.5 micron Chlorine Grabber
*in place of your prefilter on the far left put a 5 mic carbon block (the Workman)

If you want to save on water use and have more pure water in the tank, you could also add a permeate pump.

If you do have chloramine in your water there are different prefilters I can recommend.

Russ

Thanks Russ, I'll definitely take this advice!!

Mack

 

[mabrungard]

At 155ppm sodium, that water is not going to taste salty nor would the beer taste salty. The taste threshold for 'saltiness' in water is around 250ppm for most tasters.

That tap water is likely softened by the water utility if your home softener bypass and flushing exercise was effective and complete. My tap water is also softened by my city and the sodium content is just under 250ppm. Are you sure that your bypass was actually bypassing???

If your 'unsoftened' tap water sodium content is actually 155ppm, then you have a choice to make. Other than the sodium, that water is a decent starting point. It would be a good starting point for stouts and porters since the sodium is actually a benefit. But for other styles, getting the sodium to under half that content is a good idea...in my opinion.

 

[MikeCo]

At 155ppm sodium, that water is not going to taste salty nor would the beer taste salty. The taste threshold for 'saltiness' in water is around 250ppm for most tasters.

That tap water is likely softened by the water utility if your home softener bypass and flushing exercise was effective and complete. My tap water is also softened by my city and the sodium content is just under 250ppm. Are you sure that your bypass was actually bypassing???

If your 'unsoftened' tap water sodium content is actually 155ppm, then you have a choice to make. Other than the sodium, that water is a decent starting point. It would be a good starting point for stouts and porters since the sodium is actually a benefit. But for other styles, getting the sodium to under half that content is a good idea...in my opinion.

Is the relatively high chloride a problem?

 

[Bobby_M]

Make sure you carefully taste and smell that water that comes out of that 14 gallon pressure tank. I tried a couple of those tanks and found that it fouled the water with a really vinyl/rubber taste and aroma. I got rid of that idea and switched to a simple float valve in the brewing kettle.

 

[Mack]

@Bobby_M Thanks for the heads up! I have a float valve on hand just in case. I didn't break the bank on the larger tank, so it's a very real possibility that it sucks. I haven't fully tested the system due to time constraints. I did order the inline TDS meter, pressure gauge, and permeate tank as suggested by @Buckeye_Hydro. All of that stuff arrives today, so I'll do some reconfiguring...

... After I get my heat pump working again.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Make sure you carefully taste and smell that water that comes out of that 14 gallon pressure tank. I tried a couple of those tanks and found that it fouled the water with a really vinyl/rubber taste and aroma. I got rid of that idea and switched to a simple float valve in the brewing kettle.

That is the purpose of the taste and odor filters you see on all systems that have a pressurized storage tank. They are simple in/out filters that contain GAC.

 

[Bobby_M]

That is the purpose of the taste and odor filters you see on all systems that have a pressurized storage tank. They are simple in/out filters that contain GAC.

No, I get that but there are plenty of systems that don't include that and frankly it seems like another ongoing cost that for brewing use that can be avoided with a simple float in the kettle. I'm also a figuring we go through all the trouble to RO out just about everything from the water and then be willing to accept some plastic getting added back in for the sake of storage.