I just got my Ward's Lab report back. So it looks like my Calcium is low, total hardness is a little high, PH is high, and sodium is low. Am I correct on those? What would you all recommend I do to fix these numbers?
My turn... water report
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OP
OP
I brew a lot of porters, stouts, milds, wheat beers, and lagers, particularly vienna and dopplebocks. Not many IPAs.
I used to be slightly knowledgeable on water additions but completely forgot whatever little I used to know.
I used to be slightly knowledgeable on water additions but completely forgot whatever little I used to know.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
2.7 mL of Lactic Acid added to every 5 gallons will reduce this waters Alkalinity to ~10 mg/L (ppm) and also bring it to ~pH 5.5.
And so will 28.5 mL of 10% Phosphoric Acid. And likewise 2.4 grams of anhydrous Citric Acid.
And so will 28.5 mL of 10% Phosphoric Acid. And likewise 2.4 grams of anhydrous Citric Acid.
There’s a bit of table salt in your water (I wouldn’t say sodium was low), but nothing you can’t work with.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
That level of sodium ions may prove to be flavor positive. A read of some peer reviewed research published by brewing scientists of yore* indicates that many of them targeted 50 ppm Sodium ion in beers as light as Pilsners, and 100 ppm in darker beers.
*Yore here means commercial brewers before the era of legalized home-brewers and the micro-brewers that they spawned determined that this was a bad idea.
*Yore here means commercial brewers before the era of legalized home-brewers and the micro-brewers that they spawned determined that this was a bad idea.
OP
OP
Hmm. I was just playing around with a water calculator (Brewers Friend) and was thinking of ADDING kosher salt to up the sodium a little. So skip that is the consensus?
Re: lactic acid for PH adjustment. Is 8.1 starting high enough to warrant an adjustment? Say I make no adjustment to PH, where will a typical mash with some specialty malts tend to fall?
Re: lactic acid for PH adjustment. Is 8.1 starting high enough to warrant an adjustment? Say I make no adjustment to PH, where will a typical mash with some specialty malts tend to fall?
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Water pH is quite irrelevant with regard to mash pH, but Alkalinity can be very detrimental. It is merely a side consequence of Alkalinity reduction that lowers the water pH. If you sparge you will want to perform this Alkalinity reduction for that water also.
OP
OP
Got it, I'm tracking now.
So I definitely want to up the calcium, but what about sulfate? Target seems to be around 50-150?
Depends on the beer. Not trying to give a snide answer, but - it really does. Chloride and Sulfate as well as Calcium.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
I think your Calcium is fine as is. Your SO4 ion is actually 42 ppm. Ward Labs only reports the elemental Sulfur, and their shorthand for this is SO4-S (or the S in SO4).
As regards why they do this, Ward's business is to analyze farm water, and farmers care about S, but could care less about SO4.
As regards why they do this, Ward's business is to analyze farm water, and farmers care about S, but could care less about SO4.
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
Acknowledge the consensus, then brew to your tastes.
It's not the water's initial pH that is important, but rather the alkalinity. I have much lower alkalinity water (~21.5 ppm), and I need to add acid for light colored beers. My water pH is about 8.2.
Brew on
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
As an aside, the objective is never to reduce Alkalinity to zero, as that requires acidifying water to the pH 4.1 - 4.3 range.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
OP
OP
Thanks, I'm going to order lactic acid and droppers right now.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
The mL graduated plastic medicine syringes which parents use to give children metered medicine doses work great.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Here is a simplified means whereby to compute Alkalinity reduction to an approximate pH of 5.4.
Givens:
1) Alkalinity is generally reported as ppm CaCO3 (whether or not that is it's actual source).
2) We will make the generally accepted generalization that ppm = mg/L
3) The MW (molecular weight) of CaCO3 is an easy to remember 100 grams/Mol (if we ignore isotopes).
4) The charges on the ions dissociated when CaCO3 is dissolved in water are +2, and -2 respectively.
5) This means that the Equivalent Weight (EQ) of CaCO3 is 100/2 = 50 grams/Eq = 50 mg/mEq
6) If we ignore dissociation constants, then we can generalize that all chemical reactions take place on a level playing field of Equivalent weight to Equivalent weight. Or on a smaller scale, mEq to mEq.
7) The Acid Strength of 88% Lactic Acid at specifically 5.4 pH is 11.4515 mEq/mL
Now lets start with your 92 ppm (mg/L) Alkalinity water, and 5 gallons worth of it.
1) 5 gallons = 18.927 Liters.
2) 92 mg/L Aklalinity x 18.927 L ~= 1741 mg of Alkalinity (as CaCO3)
3) 1741 mg CaCO3 ÷ 50 mg/mEq of CaCO3 = 34.82 mEq's of Alkalinity (as CaCO3)
4) We know (from the carbonate species chart) that a 90% reduction in Alkalinity will get us close to pH 5.4
5) 34.82 mEq's of Alkalinity x 90% = 31.34 mEq's which need to be removed.
6) The acid strength of 88% Lactic Acid at (specifically) pH 5.4 is 11.4515 mEq/mL
7) Hearken back to #6 in the "Given's" list above. Then:
8) 31.34 mEq's Alkalinity ÷ 11.4515 mEq/mL Lactic Acid = 2.73 mL of 88% Lactic Acid
Answer = A 2.73 mL of Lactic Acid addition is required.
Givens:
1) Alkalinity is generally reported as ppm CaCO3 (whether or not that is it's actual source).
2) We will make the generally accepted generalization that ppm = mg/L
3) The MW (molecular weight) of CaCO3 is an easy to remember 100 grams/Mol (if we ignore isotopes).
4) The charges on the ions dissociated when CaCO3 is dissolved in water are +2, and -2 respectively.
5) This means that the Equivalent Weight (EQ) of CaCO3 is 100/2 = 50 grams/Eq = 50 mg/mEq
6) If we ignore dissociation constants, then we can generalize that all chemical reactions take place on a level playing field of Equivalent weight to Equivalent weight. Or on a smaller scale, mEq to mEq.
7) The Acid Strength of 88% Lactic Acid at specifically 5.4 pH is 11.4515 mEq/mL
Now lets start with your 92 ppm (mg/L) Alkalinity water, and 5 gallons worth of it.
1) 5 gallons = 18.927 Liters.
2) 92 mg/L Aklalinity x 18.927 L ~= 1741 mg of Alkalinity (as CaCO3)
3) 1741 mg CaCO3 ÷ 50 mg/mEq of CaCO3 = 34.82 mEq's of Alkalinity (as CaCO3)
4) We know (from the carbonate species chart) that a 90% reduction in Alkalinity will get us close to pH 5.4
5) 34.82 mEq's of Alkalinity x 90% = 31.34 mEq's which need to be removed.
6) The acid strength of 88% Lactic Acid at (specifically) pH 5.4 is 11.4515 mEq/mL
7) Hearken back to #6 in the "Given's" list above. Then:
8) 31.34 mEq's Alkalinity ÷ 11.4515 mEq/mL Lactic Acid = 2.73 mL of 88% Lactic Acid
Answer = A 2.73 mL of Lactic Acid addition is required.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
In retrospect, by stating that 88% Lactic Acid has a strength of 11.4515 mEq/mL at specifically pH 5.4 we have not ignored the dissociation constant issue for this acid (as I initially stated in 'Givens' #6), but rather we have embraced it fully. And via our use of the Carbonate Species chart posted above, we have also embraced the inherent chemical reaction reversal (which is dissociation constant related) that happens when our Lactic Acid reacts with CaCO3 (Alkalinity).
I would have invested in a bottle of 85% phosphoric acid...
Lactic Acid is A-OK, and reasonably priced. I did buy a bottle of 85% Phosphoric Acid. Pretty much a lifetime supply...
I use a 1/100 gram scale, the same one to weigh out water minerals. 3 or 4 small cups: Mash, Sparge, Acid (for sparge). I rarely need acid for the mash. But you may.
OP
OP
Are there any benefits to using phosphoric acid to achieve the same result? What determines choosing one over the other?
Phosphoric is more flavor neutral than Lactic, it's used in most sodas. Now Lactic only becomes noticeable at higher dosages.
OP
OP
Gotcha. So a few mL of lactic should be under the flavor threshold?
i know this is brew science, usually i use epsom salt to acidify though....someone smarter can explain why it works....
Flavor threshold for lactate is around 400 ppm. But some people can taste it at lower concentrations. Also depends on the beer style, of course.
https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Lactate_Taste_Threshold_experiment
I use lactic, usually a few ml in total for a 20L batch, never been able to taste it.
The sodium is no problem, my water here has about 50mg/L and I honestly think my lighter beers improved by that since we moved, they taste "fuller" compared to before.
The sodium is no problem, my water here has about 50mg/L and I honestly think my lighter beers improved by that since we moved, they taste "fuller" compared to before.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Germany makes some mighty fine Lagers, and in one form or another Lactic Acid is all they use. By law, if it is still in effect...
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Phosphoric Acid becomes problematic when high Calcium levels are coupled with high Alkalinity levels. Wherein it precipitates out Calcium as highly insoluble Calcium Apatite (with all credit here going to A.J. deLange).
My water has a little less Sodium than yours and I do not add any extra sodium. I will sometimes add some Baking Soda for dark beers and that might boost my Sodium to the 50 ppm level.
You can play around with dosing finished beer with Table Salt (or other sources of Sodium). I did this a while back. I found that it took quite a bit of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride to make a noticeable difference, but a little Epsom Salt or Table Salt had a dramatic difference. I forget what ppm I targeted, but Epsom Salt quickly added an odd metallic character and Table Salt added a salty character.
Partially based on that experiment, I decided I did not want to mess with adding Epsom Salt (Magnesium Sulfate) or Table Salt (Sodium Chloride). I also stopped micro-managing my Sulfate and Chloride levels as I doubt I could detect a difference of +/- 25% from my target. Even then, there is not a clear better vs worse on Sulfate and Chloride levels, it is more about preference.
OP
OP
I probably should have included this in my OP:
Since October, I’ve brewed 11 beers with this water. Of these, I’ve noticed a clear pattern: the lighter/lower-gravity beers are “lacking something”.
I can’t explain it. They’re just “thin” relative to their color and gravity. I can only blame the water. I’ve had one batch with an off flavor but I know it was from an addition of sugar mid-fermentation (and it was a stout anyway).
Every other beer has been perfectly clean, and the darker/higher-gravity batches have all been excellent.
So maybe this will help with water adjustment suggestions?
My brew club is telling me to start with distilled or get RO but as of now I do not see enough of a problem with this water to justify the extra expenses.
Since October, I’ve brewed 11 beers with this water. Of these, I’ve noticed a clear pattern: the lighter/lower-gravity beers are “lacking something”.
I can’t explain it. They’re just “thin” relative to their color and gravity. I can only blame the water. I’ve had one batch with an off flavor but I know it was from an addition of sugar mid-fermentation (and it was a stout anyway).
Every other beer has been perfectly clean, and the darker/higher-gravity batches have all been excellent.
So maybe this will help with water adjustment suggestions?
My brew club is telling me to start with distilled or get RO but as of now I do not see enough of a problem with this water to justify the extra expenses.
Interesting. I'd think if a lighter beer was thin, a darker beer would be as well. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by thin. A lack of body?
If it's a lack of hops, you could consider a sulfate addition. CaSO4 for example.
If you move to RO, you'd still have to add a bunch of stuff to it, perhaps even more than now. It's a clean slate to start with, but also just that, a clean slate with nothing to contribute, good or bad.
I'm struggling to find one, but I'd think there *must* be a table somewhere as a starting point, for various styles. You don't have to stick with it but it might be a place to begin. A pale ale and a chocolate stout will have different suggestions for example. Or an English ESB or a pilsner.
If it's a lack of hops, you could consider a sulfate addition. CaSO4 for example.
If you move to RO, you'd still have to add a bunch of stuff to it, perhaps even more than now. It's a clean slate to start with, but also just that, a clean slate with nothing to contribute, good or bad.
I'm struggling to find one, but I'd think there *must* be a table somewhere as a starting point, for various styles. You don't have to stick with it but it might be a place to begin. A pale ale and a chocolate stout will have different suggestions for example. Or an English ESB or a pilsner.
OP
OP
There’s calculators around. The Brewer’s Friend version tells you what style the profile is best for as you mess with the numbers.
I’m just looking for something simple like what I used to do back in Staten Island: one middle of the road profile that I don’t have to change batch to batch.
I’m just looking for something simple like what I used to do back in Staten Island: one middle of the road profile that I don’t have to change batch to batch.
BrewnWKopperKat
ʘ‿ʘ
What about starting with "A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer (link)" with 'Cliff Notes' here (link), and making a one time adjustment for any existing minerals?
There are general profiles by style to aim for, with a but of overlap.
When it comes to Bri'ish ales, my mild profile is suitable for brown ales, malty semi dark strong ales, dark but not really roasty ( Old Peculier type beer) etc.
When it comes to Bri'ish ales, my mild profile is suitable for brown ales, malty semi dark strong ales, dark but not really roasty ( Old Peculier type beer) etc.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
The addition of 1.1 grams of Gypsum and 0.25 grams of Calcium Chloride to each 5 gallons would give each 5 gallons of this water a very middle of the road mineralization.
Out of curiosity, is there any way to apply this using acid malt? I have been using acid malt. Most sources recommend keeping acid malt under 3% of the total grist. I just bought some lactic acid and used it instead of acid malt for my first time in 25 years of brewing. Beer is still fermenting but I will be curious to see how this works out.
Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Yes! But only in the mash.
1.25 Weight Ounces (~35.44 grams) of a 'nominal' Acid Malt delivers essentially the Lactic Acid equivalent of 1 mL of 88% Lactic Acid.
But lot to lot, and brand to brand, Acid Malt can vary somewhat in acidity from nominal specs.
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Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
And for those national regions in which 80% Lactic Acid may be more the available norm than 88% might be:
31.72 grams of a 'nominal' Acid Malt delivers essentially the Lactic Acid equivalent of 1 mL of 80% Lactic Acid.
31.72 grams of a 'nominal' Acid Malt delivers essentially the Lactic Acid equivalent of 1 mL of 80% Lactic Acid.
I get it, I really do. I'll still mention... 1) You will have something to adjust depending on your beer type and base malt used. What works for a Maris Otter stout might be awful for a 2-Row Pale Ale in regards to mash pH. So you may still have some trial and error in regards to your additions, but over time you'll get it figured out. It may be as simple as the amount of acid you add but it's somewhat certain you'll benefit from at least this changing.
In regards to sulfate / chloride you can still consider it. If there's an addition or two you are already adding for the baseline, you could also know that a stout gets an extra gram of X, or a pale ale gets an extra gram of Y.
Not needed but - you might find a few easy beer dependent tweaks.
