My new goal- $10.00 to make 5 gallons

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Botulism is especially dangerous because you won't notice it's a problem until it's almost too late.



Count your lucky stars.

Why? Again I ask, does anyone pressure cook their beer or have there been any cases of a homebrewer getting a botulism infection? Is it common practice for commercial brewers to pressure cook beer? Does commercial pastuerization kill the spore??


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[ong]

Did I read that correctly? $10 per pound of grain?!

No, that was the price for hops.

 

[kombat]

And even if the spore persists, boiling will kill the bacteria that it creates ( ie boiling before making a starter or adding to a boiling wort to bring levels up). And then the wort is boiled each time before yeast is pitched. This discussion is really becoming moot, because like lactobaccillus bacteria, its killed in the boil. Unless Im missing something, this concern is much ado about nothing.

There's the catch: I don't boil my starter wort.

If you're going to boil your starter wort, why bother canning it at all? Just make it up the day you make your starter. The whole point of canning starter wort is that when I need to make a starter, I just pull a couple jars from the cupboard, pour them directly into my (sanitized) flask, shake to aerate, and pitch the yeast. Takes all of 5 minutes. So it's important that the jars of starter wort be completely sterile.

 

[kombat]

Why? Again I ask, does anyone pressure cook their beer or have there been any cases of a homebrewer getting a botulism infection? Is it common practice for commercial brewers to pressure cook beer? Does commercial pastuerization kill the spore??

Botulism is not a concern for finished beer, because the pH is too low. Additionally, the presence of alcohol makes the environment inhospitable to the troublesome microbes. It is, however, a real concern for unfermented wort.

 

[thadius856]

Your mother's input is helpful, but a bit misleading.

The spore is denatured at 185F, but the bacterium lives until 250F.

We don't worry about finished beer because of yeast competition and pH. However, we're didiscussinganning started wort, which is a different case.

You're welcome to not can yours and roll the dice.

 

[kombat]

The spore is denatured at 185F, but the bacterium lives until 250F.

You've got it backwards.


From the Wikipedia page on home canning:

Although the botulinum toxin is destroyed by thorough cooking over the course of a few minutes, the spore itself is not killed by the temperatures reached with normal sea-level-pressure boiling

 

[thadius856]

Thats what I get for messaging from my phone at 5am, eh? I think you know what I meant to say.

Doesn't change the point.

 

[prohl84]

You can check the gravity of your canned wort. If it's the same as when you put it in cans then nothing has been munching it.

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

For me, I started making canning wort as a way to reduce the costs of DME when I needed to make a starter or if I wanted to capture wild yeast, etc. basically anytime I wanted unfermented wort). It appears that using the methods I already am (ie boiling before usage and inspection of the wort), my bases are covered. It is more thorough to pressure can, and I probably will in the future, jus as an added measure of caution. However, this debate seems to be similiar to the concerns some have of eating wild game meat or putting used tires on a car. When a risk exists, if managed properly, its really not a risk at all.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[kombat]

It appears that using the methods I already am (ie boiling before usage and inspection of the wort), my bases are covered.

You're covered if you boil it before using it, but I think your approach is somewhat unique. I don't know many people who use grain to prepare their starter wort strictly as a means to reduce costs and not rely on DME. Personally, I'd rather pay the extra cost and not have to prepare an entire brew (weighing and milling grain, doing a mash, etc.).

Note that you could still save some time in your approach if you bought a pressure canner and canned your wort after you collected it. That way you could just dump the wort into a flask and pitch the yeast immediately, rather than investing the time boiling and cooling that wort. But I suspect you're not actually boiling and cooling your starter wort right now anyway, and are more likely just using it straight out of the jar days after brewing it and taking your chances, amirite?

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

You're covered if you boil it before using it, but I think your approach is somewhat unique. I don't know many people who use grain to prepare their starter wort strictly as a means to reduce costs and not rely on DME. Personally, I'd rather pay the extra cost and not have to prepare an entire brew (weighing and milling grain, doing a mash, etc.).



Note that you could still save some time in your approach if you bought a pressure canner and canned your wort after you collected it. That way you could just dump the wort into a flask and pitch the yeast immediately, rather than investing the time boiling and cooling that wort. But I suspect you're not actually boiling and cooling your starter wort right now anyway, and are more likely just using it straight out of the jar days after brewing it and taking your chances, amirite?

Unique I might be lol. Yes, Im doing exactly that. 8 lbs of grain at .89/lb, 1/4 oz hops plus lids. 60 min mash at 148 to make 2 cases of quart jars filled with 1.040 wort. Lasts me about 3 months. I might be a cheap b:$}:#d!! And I have been boiling the wort and cooling it each time before use. Having grown up with a house full of canned goods, I guess it never crossed my mind to not boil it something when it comes out of a jar. 15 min boil, cools in a sink in about 10 minutes. I didn't really see it as that much work. But I can see the time savings of being able to jus pour and go.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

This makes my cost of a 1L starter about $0.42 plus yeast. Given that I wash/reuse my yeast out to 8 generations, it keeps that side of the brew at a pretty low cost. He11, I reuse Nottingham. I might be a beer nerd . Ya know what they say, admission is the first step to recovery.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[Owly055]

I'd love to hear the story of someone who grew and malted his own grain and hops, and fermented his beer using wild yeasts Lambic style, using water from his own well........... And that's all very possible. A beer that was 100% local.

Actually where I live this would be fairly doable..... I can name a couple of people who are neighbors who have hops growing in their yard as a decorative plant, who are grain farmers. It would be quite a claim to be able to say that EVERYTHING in your beer came from your home place.............. It actually might be a way to market a microbrew...

H.W.

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Where I live in Illinois, I am surrounded by artesian wells. It is really great tasting water. Hops grow well here too. And I will probably be capturing and cultivating yeast this summer. Malting my own barley? I dont see that happening...


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[prohl84]

You're covered if you boil it before using it, but I think your approach is somewhat unique. I don't know many people who use grain to prepare their starter wort strictly as a means to reduce costs and not rely on DME. Personally, I'd rather pay the extra cost and not have to prepare an entire brew (weighing and milling grain, doing a mash, etc.).

I've also been doing this for a few months now. If I want to save myself some time I will just make extra wort on brewday that isn't going into the fermenter or draw some of the wort into a separate kettle for starters.

If you want to carbonate the beer with the actual wort it's made of you simply can a couple of quarts and use that on bottling day.

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Ive been bottle conditioning with my wort too. Essentially, 1 pint is the same as 2 cups of water and 5.0 oz of dextrose.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[kombat]

Ive been bottle conditioning with my wort too. Essentially, 1 pint is the same as 2 cups of water and 5.0 oz of dextrose.

It obviously depends on the wort, but wouldn't this usually result in undercarbonated beer? Unless I'm doing my math wrong, 5 oz of dextrose in 2 cups of water has a specific gravity of 1.093. This obviously gets diluted into the rest of the beer and supplies the proper amount of carbonation for a 5 gallon batch.

But one pint of wort is the same amount of liquid, but will generally have a much lower specific gravity, won't it? So wouldn't you be dissolving fewer total sugars into your beer result in undercarbonation? Wouldn't you need 2 pints of 1.045 beer to give you the same carbonation as 1 pint (2 cups) of water with 5 oz of dextrose?

 

[markstache]

Why? Again I ask, does anyone pressure cook their beer or have there been any cases of a homebrewer getting a botulism infection? Is it common practice for commercial brewers to pressure cook beer? Does commercial pastuerization kill the spore??

Thankfully I am unaware of any homebrewers who have been hurt by botulism. The process of wort canning is uncommon, and of those that do, most seem to use a pressure canner (from anecdotal self reporting).

To be clear, remember it is not the Clostridium botulinum bacterium that is itself dangerous, but rather the toxin it produces. The danger is that spores will not be denatured at 212F and remain in the wort. During storage they produce the toxin. If you are distracted, the jar didn't seal well, or otherwise does not indicate infection, you could inadvertently add the toxin to your beer. By the time you were aware of the problem because of symptoms, your prognosis is dire indeed.

You raise an interesting point in an earlier message that wort is very close to the acid levels recommended for water bath canning. By adding a little acid to the wort before canning (StarSan?), you could make the wort unsuitable for bacterial growth.

 

[prohl84]

Hops iso-alpha acids prevent the growth of some gram positive bacteria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_acid

C. botulinum is gram positive. Whether it's adversley affected by iso alphas I'm not sure. Between that and the acidity- I feel pretty safe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_botulinum

I've read that hopping to around 12 IBUs is a good minimum to prevent bacteria. Again double checking gravity is a good way to make sure no microbial activity has occurred.


EDIT: Here's a great calculator for using wort for prime.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/gyle-and-krausen-priming-calculator/

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

It obviously depends on the wort, but wouldn't this usually result in undercarbonated beer? Unless I'm doing my math wrong, 5 oz of dextrose in 2 cups of water has a specific gravity of 1.093. This obviously gets diluted into the rest of the beer and supplies the proper amount of carbonation for a 5 gallon batch.



But one pint of wort is the same amount of liquid, but will generally have a much lower specific gravity, won't it? So wouldn't you be dissolving fewer total sugars into your beer result in undercarbonation? Wouldn't you need 2 pints of 1.045 beer to give you the same carbonation as 1 pint (2 cups) of water with 5 oz of dextrose?

You are spot on correct. 1 lb of dextrose yields 1.046 in 1 gallon a water (and is 100 % fermentable). Essentially equivalent to 4 oz/qt. 5 oz give a lil bit higher gravity. I meant to say quart, but typoed pint. Thats what I get for trying to contribute here while troubleshooting my PITA 4WD on my truck! Thanks for keepin me honest.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[electrolight]

Not possible.

Even when doing a bulk grain buy(35ish a sack of 2 row), using minimal hops bought in bulk, minimal specialty grains and adjuncts, and yeast washing, slanting ect....the cost of DME for starters, propane(this is a big one), water(if you dont filter), star san, cleaners, caps, ect will put you over that limit quickly. Thats not even considering amortizing equipment costs.

.
.
.
My local homebrew store (AHS) just had "Wonder Grain" on sale for $7.99. In the same spirit they had "Magic Hop Dust" on sale for $0.99 (average alpha acid of 7.5%). I racked it onto a Kolsch yeast cake I had just freed up that I was ready to toss out until I saw this combo at the AHS. That seals the deal in at $8.99; plus tax of 8.5% and we are looking at $9.75.

That is right folks. 5 gallons of beer for $9.75! It is indeed possible.

Please refrain from absolutes like "not". Instead use words like "unlikely". It keeps you from sounding ignorant.

And because I'm a big advocate of "pics or it didn't happen". Here is a picture.
.
.
.

 

[kombat]

Is that a unicorn barfing up a rainbow?

 

[electrolight]

Yes. Yes it is.

 

[thadius856]

.
.
.
My local homebrew store (AHS) just had "Wonder Grain" on sale for $7.99. In the same spirit they had "Magic Hop Dust" on sale for $0.99 (average alpha acid of 7.5%). I racked it onto a Kolsch yeast cake I had just freed up that I was ready to toss out until I saw this combo at the AHS. That seals the deal in at $8.99; plus tax of 8.5% and we are looking at $9.75.

That is right folks. 5 gallons of beer for $9.75! It is indeed possible.

Please refrain from absolutes like "not". Instead use words like "unlikely". It keeps you from sounding ignorant.

And because I'm a big advocate of "pics or it didn't happen". Here is a picture.
.
.
.

What weight of grain? What efficiency? What OG?

 

[electrolight]

What weight of grain? What efficiency? What OG?

10 lb. ~72% efficiency most of the time, so I have to assume thats what I hit this time. With my BIAB 1.056 OG. FG unknown as it is fermenting atm.

 

[thadius856]

$0.80/lb ain't too bad. I buy 50# sacks for pretty close to that unit price in CA.

 

[electrolight]

$0.80/lb ain't too bad. I buy 50# sacks for pretty close to that unit price in CA.

Nice. Except I have wonder beer now. And you have malt that you know what it is.

 

[lowtones84]

What is "Wunder Grain" exactly? Scraps of a bunch of different base malts they had laying around which they then bagged up?

 

[Dynachrome]

What is "Wunder Grain" exactly? Scraps of a bunch of different base malts they had laying around which they then bagged up?

I "Wunder" what's in it.....


...still, bet it makes good beer.

 

[prohl84]

It's Wunderful!