My New England IPA is never hazy enough.

[MPBeer]

I think the most important element in New England IPA is appearance. I love that orange juice-like appearnce of top tier IPAs from Monkish, Tree House, etc...

So I studied. I found out that the haziness comes from polyphenols from protein rich malts and dry hopping. I made ipas with lots of wheat & oats and massive dry hopping. However, I always get 'cloudy' beer, not hazy beer. You know the beers that classic west coast breweries brew, calling them 'hazy unfiltered ipa'? My beer looks exactly like that.

What should I do to get that haziness? Any tips will be appreciated...

 

[thehaze]

I've done a few NEIPAs with and without Flaked adjuncts. My latest one used a combination of 60% English Lager and 40% English Pale. It was hazy. The only thing I did was a big whirlpool at 70C/158F and one dry hopping charge right after fermentation. I used Irish Moss and cold crashed it.

You could use wheat+oat up to 30% and use more hops during whirlpool and dry hop.

 

[don_bran321]

Are you throwing hops in the fermenter loose or in a bag? That will make a difference

 

[don_bran321]

Are you throwing hops in the fermenter loose or in a bag? That will make a difference

Also what yeast are you using?

 

[thehaze]

Yeah, that's another good point. I always use hop pellets loose at every step. The right yeast can also be of help.

 

[Qhrumphf]

The term tossed about is "biotransformation" when certain yeasts do something to the hops when dry hopped during fermentation, and not after. Different sources say diffent things and the scientific understanding seems to still be a work in progress. But it seems that not all yeasts will do it. But, in the process you get those typical fruit notes, and that heavy nearly unbreakable haze (though the originals would drop clear eventually, newer ones don't seem to).

Use either Conan or London III. And dry hop 48-72 hrs after pitching yeast.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Also.

The "the most important element is the appearance" part grinds my gears.

Not because I think you're wrong. But because I don't want you to be right.

Not uncommon to see a NEIPA review on Untappd or the like: "tastes and smells amazing, but not hazy enough [one star]". And some breweries toss the word "hazy" on an unfiltered IPA (that'll drop clear fast) just because hazy will sell.

In competition judging, appearance is 3 pts out of 50.

 

[MPBeer]

I'm using WLP067, or some random drags from neipa. Can't get wyeast in this country, so just trying to use the best one in my hands. My usual brewing ipa goes like this.

1.Mash high, lauter and sparge.

2.No bittering hops usually, 4~6oz of hopstand at 160~170F

3.Ferment for 1 week

4.Dry hop at day 3~4, 6~10oz, loose.

5.Cold crash for 3~4 days.

6.Siphon the clear part and bottle.

^^^ My beer looks like this (right one)

 

[bigdawg86]

Just an observation, Voss Kviek yeast has always been hazy for me regardless of how long the beer is kegged. I am attempting a hazy with that yeast in a few days and am using all cryo hops for dry hopping.

 

[Qhrumphf]

When you say "ferment one week" and then "dry hop at day 3-4" are you dry hopping after that week of fermentation, for 3-4 days, or are you dry hopping during that week, on the 3rd or 4th day?

I don't know what's in WLP067 (I'm way out of date on White Labs selection), but it *sounds* (from description alone) like WLP066 London Fog may be London III, and WLP095 Burlington may be Conan. It's also possible that either or both of em may be in your blend. But since it sounds like you can get White Labs, could try giving either of those a go.

Try doing two dry hops. Dry hop once at about 48 hrs after pitching, and again when it's done. Check the gravity while you're dry hopping for that first dry hop. If your'e already at or really close to your FG you may be dry hopping too late.

 

[Beer666]

Voss kveik no boil produces a permanently hazy beer for me.

 

[tkurtzman2]

Are you doing any water modifications? I think a 2:1 Chloride to Sulfate is ideal. I try for 150:75. Before I started focusing on my water chemistry I was unable to achieve the signature haze.

 

[WBB]

You’re cold crashing too. The yeast will flock on their own and drip. The loose hops will mostly float around, but if you cold crash, the hops are going to drop as well.

 

[jdauria]

I would not cold crash for 3-4 days, I would do 24-36 hours max, you may be dropping too much protein/hop haze. How much oats or wheat are you using? Talking ounces or pounds? My NEIPA uses 2 lbs of flaked oats.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Just a thought. Cold crashing shouldn't bother anything because the goal for nice hazy beer is chill haze, not suspended yeast.

 

[Jag75]

2row , flaked oats , flaked wheat , white wheat . Using Gy054 Vermont ipa yeast . Is this hazy enough? I dont mind hazy but I dont want sludge and hop materials in it.

 

[Kadaverdoktoren]

This is my beer.

80 % pale malt/pilsner malt
10 % flaked wheat
10 % flaked oats

Hops in at whirlpool, hopstand for 30 mins.
Dry hop mid fermentation and when it's getting close to the end.

For yeast, use somthing that aids biotransformation like Wyeast 1318, WLP 007, S-04.

Party time.

Edit: This beer is fermented with S-04.

 

[Qhrumphf]

007 didn't work well for me in terms of biotransformation haze. Character was awesome, and it'd start hazy, but drop completely bright after 1-2 weeks cold in the keg.

Can't speak to S-04.

 

[MPBeer]

When you say "ferment one week" and then "dry hop at day 3-4" are you dry hopping after that week of fermentation, for 3-4 days, or are you dry hopping during that week, on the 3rd or 4th day?

The latter one is correct, dry hop while the fermentation is still going on.

Are you doing any water modifications? I think a 2:1 Chloride to Sulfate is ideal. I try for 150:75. Before I started focusing on my water chemistry I was unable to achieve the signature haze.

I'm not 100% sure of my water, but I build my water base on water report of my town's tap water. I usually add 3g of gypsum and 7g of calcium chloride for 75~100 : 200 of SO4 : Chloride ratio.

 

[MPBeer]

Man how you guys getting that amazing look.... damn I want to just take that beer and call it mine.

My grist bill usually goes like this -> 70% 2-Row, 20% Wheat (Weierman?), 10% Flaked Oats + 3~5% of Acidulated.

I heard some cold crash for shorter time, but I believe that that the haze is from permenat haze, that can't be removed by long time crashing. I also heard Weldwerks and Monkish usually takes 24~28 days to finish their beer, so I think crashing long time shouldn't be a problem.

What should be the problem

 

[Jag75]

Your pretty close to mine MPBeer.

76.5 % 2 row
5.9% flaked oats
5.9% flaked wheat
5.9% white wheat
5.9% corn sugar

Mash 149f 60 min

 

[pretzelb]

Also.

The "the most important element is the appearance" part grinds my gears.

Not because I think you're wrong. But because I don't want you to be right.

Not uncommon to see a NEIPA review on Untappd or the like: "tastes and smells amazing, but not hazy enough [one star]". And some breweries toss the word "hazy" on an unfiltered IPA (that'll drop clear fast) just because hazy will sell.

In competition judging, appearance is 3 pts out of 50.

I will step up and be the big jerk in this thread and say IT IS WRONG to say appearance is the most important element. This type of thinking always sends me on a tirade about how our community is really starting to go off the deep end with certain hipster ways of thinking. Please excuse the following rant as I don't mean to target anyone and just want to shout at the world.

I wasn't there when the NEIPA style was made, nor have I researched how every style was made (too lazy), but I will bet $1 right now that in the entire history of brewing that not one successful brewer ever put appearance as their number one priority when trying to create a new recipe. To me this is like saying that when it comes to dining out, plating is the most important factor of a meal. You know when visuals are the most important factor? When the product is consumed visually like with cameras or televisions.

If consumers are actually going to a pub loaded with NEIPAs and rating them based on appearance FIRST then it might be that I've finally gotten old enough where the world doesn't make any sense to me anymore. Does this mean that if I can brew a beer that looks just like a stout with black rice (I have no idea if this would work) and I nail the perfect appearance that I have a chance to win consumers to my beer because of that appearance? How in the heck have we as brewers gotten so far off the map that we obsess over appearance over taste. Appearance is almost always (maybe always) the byproduct of process that you had to undergo to get the taste you wanted. The goal isn't the haze, it's the taste. If you happen to get haze along the way it is allowed because the process and ingredients can often lead to haze.

If you're trying to win contests and the judges are critical of the appearance then I can see why you might try to alter your recipe or steps. But if it is true that appearance is only 3 points out of 50 then I'd really like to question why anyone thinks appearance is the most important element in just about any style.

Again, sorry for the rant and I don't mean to target anyone specifically in this rant.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I will step up and be the big jerk in this thread and say IT IS WRONG to say appearance is the most important element. This type of thinking always sends me on a tirade about how our community is really starting to go off the deep end with certain hipster ways of thinking. Please excuse the following rant as I don't mean to target anyone and just want to shout at the world.

I wasn't there when the NEIPA style was made, nor have I researched how every style was made (too lazy), but I will bet $1 right now that in the entire history of brewing that not one successful brewer ever put appearance as their number one priority when trying to create a new recipe. To me this is like saying that when it comes to dining out, plating is the most important factor of a meal. You know when visuals are the most important factor? When the product is consumed visually like with cameras or televisions.

If consumers are actually going to a pub loaded with NEIPAs and rating them based on appearance FIRST then it might be that I've finally gotten old enough where the world doesn't make any sense to me anymore. Does this mean that if I can brew a beer that looks just like a stout with black rice (I have no idea if this would work) and I nail the perfect appearance that I have a chance to win consumers to my beer because of that appearance? How in the heck have we as brewers gotten so far off the map that we obsess over appearance over taste. Appearance is almost always (maybe always) the byproduct of process that you had to undergo to get the taste you wanted. The goal isn't the haze, it's the taste. If you happen to get haze along the way it is allowed because the process and ingredients can often lead to haze.

If you're trying to win contests and the judges are critical of the appearance then I can see why you might try to alter your recipe or steps. But if it is true that appearance is only 3 points out of 50 then I'd really like to question why anyone thinks appearance is the most important element in just about any style.

Again, sorry for the rant and I don't mean to target anyone specifically in this rant.

Oh, once the haze craze and milkshake IPA thing started, followed by the triple fruited still fermenting "keep cold so the can doesn't explode" fruited Goses, it was more than obvious that craft beer as a whole has lost the plot.

I don't like it. But I've accepted it. Until the next stupid thing starts (glitter beer...ugh).

I enjoy NEIPAs but don't care about haze. In fact it brings me great joy to see a relatively fresh Lawsons SOS or Heady Topper have dropped clear (which they do!), enough that rather than actually drink it I want to toss it in the face of a OMGHAZEBRO bro to prove a point. But Milkshake IPAs are disgusting, and any commercial brewery with the gall to knowingly release a potentially exploding can should be forcibly shut down, regardless of what the kids want.

Like I said, I don't like it. But it's where things stand.

Bias is real, and first impressions generate a lot of it. People eat (or drink) with their eyes. Haze matters in these for the same reason clarity matters in most other styles- people expect it, and if they don't see it they're immediately going to be biased against it before tasting or smelling it.

Of course, if you're brewing solely for you, then who cares. But if others drink it, it's worth consideration.

And even in a competition, where yes, appearance is 3 pts out of a possible 50, that initial lack of haze has the potential to bias judges and be a detriment in other more important areas. No human is immune to bias, which is why good scientific studies go to such pains to eliminate it.

 

[tegman]

This was my second attempt. Stick with it and you’ll get that Haze.

60% 2-row
20% Golden Promise
12% flakes oats
3% honey malt
A38 yeast

hops - Whirlpool, 20 pts left, keg

2:1 chloride to sulfate

 

[Upthewazzu]

FWIW, when I used WLP095 Burlington I got one of the clearest beers I've ever made lol.

 

[pretzelb]

Maybe you are wiser than me because I still refuse to accept the way things are going. I do agree that appearance can bias a person when it comes to something you consume, but you rarely hear that as a complaint when it comes to food unless you are on a cooking show or at some insanely expensive restaurant. Of course you don't want a plate with food scattered all over as if it were dropped from a 20 foot cliff. But I have yet to hear anyone complain that their food did NOT look like a magazine cover in any but the most rare circumstances. But for some reason when it comes to beer we now all become snobby critics who seek the pure perfection that in the food industry isn't even applied in 95% of the dining situations? As for judges, if they can't control their visual bias then they are failed at their job.

I think the part that galls me the most is how the entire community has turned into the evil they once despised. Back in the day you had to fight for your right to enjoy craft beer over those who enjoyed wine or spirits. The "snobs" would turn their noses down at you for your love of something so trivial and common. It was if all beer tasted the same and us craft beer lovers were incapable of a mature palate required to enjoy the finer beverages like wine. Our insistence that beer can have various tastes that can be enjoyed was laughed at by those snobs so we had to quietly ban together and find others who thought the same as we did and just try to help each other find good quality beers. Flash forward to today and our "community" as turned into the same snobs but instead of bullying the wine drinkers we end up bullying our own with high minded ideals and wild swings of popularity all in the effort to one up each other on the next best trendiest thing. I dare say there is no community feeling to the whole thing anymore. Now it's just hype and trends run with an elitist hipster group mentality that probably mimics the wine snobs of days gone by.

Ugh, I'm ranting again. I should just start another post on the topic and stop derailing.

Oh, once the haze craze and milkshake IPA thing started, followed by the triple fruited still fermenting "keep cold so the can doesn't explode" fruited Goses, it was more than obvious that craft beer as a whole has lost the plot.

I don't like it. But I've accepted it. Until the next stupid thing starts (glitter beer...ugh).

I enjoy NEIPAs but don't care about haze. In fact it brings me great joy to see a relatively fresh Lawsons SOS or Heady Topper have dropped clear (which they do!), enough that rather than actually drink it I want to toss it in the face of a OMGHAZEBRO bro to prove a point. But Milkshake IPAs are disgusting, and any commercial brewery with the gall to knowingly release a potentially exploding can should be forcibly shut down, regardless of what the kids want.

Like I said, I don't like it. But it's where things stand.

Bias is real, and first impressions generate a lot of it. People eat (or drink) with their eyes. Haze matters in these for the same reason clarity matters in most other styles- people expect it, and if they don't see it they're immediately going to be biased against it before tasting or smelling it.

Of course, if you're brewing solely for you, then who cares. But if others drink it, it's worth consideration.

And even in a competition, where yes, appearance is 3 pts out of a possible 50, that initial lack of haze has the potential to bias judges and be a detriment in other more important areas. No human is immune to bias, which is why good scientific studies go to such pains to eliminate it.

 

[MPBeer]

Lol I should be more careful of my words next time. I wasn't really serious, the most important part of beer is aroma and flavor indeed I was just saying appearance is the most important thing because it looks so pretty, and I really want that look on my beer, that's all.

 

[Jag75]

Lol I should be more careful of my words next time. I wasn't really serious, the most important part of beer is aroma and flavor indeed I was just saying appearance is the most important thing because it looks so pretty, and I really want that look on my beer, that's all.

I kinda know what you mean. One year we went backpacking . My nephew had to have that blue butter. Fresh trout cooked in blue butter played mind games . It didnt look very good and I dont think it tasted as good as it usually did. However if you closed your eyes and tried that butter youd never know. Our minds are powerful persuasive things .

 

[wepeeler]

Man how you guys getting that amazing look.... damn I want to just take that beer and call it mine.

My grist bill usually goes like this -> 70% 2-Row, 20% Wheat (Weierman?), 10% Flaked Oats + 3~5% of Acidulated.

I heard some cold crash for shorter time, but I believe that that the haze is from permenat haze, that can't be removed by long time crashing. I also heard Weldwerks and Monkish usually takes 24~28 days to finish their beer, so I think crashing long time shouldn't be a problem.

What should be the problem

That grain bill is perfect for haze. Mash at 156 for 60 min.

It's your yeast and/or cold crashing. I stopped cold crashing, and I don't get any yeasty flavor. Just let it ferment for 14 days at least to completion. I use wyeast 1318 regularly, but if you can't get wyeast, can you get White Labs? I've used Cali 001 and Burlington from them with great success.

 

[Jag75]

If you haven't tried GY054 Vermont IPA give it a shot . Fantastic yeast . I dont cold crash either .

 

[Mer-man]

I will step up and be the big jerk in this thread and say IT IS WRONG to say appearance is the most important element. This type of thinking always sends me on a tirade about how our community is really starting to go off the deep end with certain hipster ways of thinking. Please excuse the following rant as I don't mean to target anyone and just want to shout at the world.

I wasn't there when the NEIPA style was made, nor have I researched how every style was made (too lazy), but I will bet $1 right now that in the entire history of brewing that not one successful brewer ever put appearance as their number one priority when trying to create a new recipe. To me this is like saying that when it comes to dining out, plating is the most important factor of a meal. You know when visuals are the most important factor? When the product is consumed visually like with cameras or televisions.

If consumers are actually going to a pub loaded with NEIPAs and rating them based on appearance FIRST then it might be that I've finally gotten old enough where the world doesn't make any sense to me anymore. Does this mean that if I can brew a beer that looks just like a stout with black rice (I have no idea if this would work) and I nail the perfect appearance that I have a chance to win consumers to my beer because of that appearance? How in the heck have we as brewers gotten so far off the map that we obsess over appearance over taste. Appearance is almost always (maybe always) the byproduct of process that you had to undergo to get the taste you wanted. The goal isn't the haze, it's the taste. If you happen to get haze along the way it is allowed because the process and ingredients can often lead to haze.

If you're trying to win contests and the judges are critical of the appearance then I can see why you might try to alter your recipe or steps. But if it is true that appearance is only 3 points out of 50 then I'd really like to question why anyone thinks appearance is the most important element in just about any style.

Again, sorry for the rant and I don't mean to target anyone specifically in this rant.

Sinamar, mate

 

[wepeeler]

The goal isn't the haze, it's the taste. If you happen to get haze along the way it is allowed because the process and ingredients can often lead to haze.

If you're trying to win contests and the judges are critical of the appearance then I can see why you might try to alter your recipe or steps. But if it is true that appearance is only 3 points out of 50 then I'd really like to question why anyone thinks appearance is the most important element in just about any style.

Appearance is what sells to masses at this point in time. New England has become fascinated with the haze craze the past 5 years, and I see it in every brewery I go to. Haze sells. Trust me, I've had my share of crappy hazy beers, but people often taste with their eyes. Is it "correct"? No. But brewers are being forced to make these haze bombs as it's what the people want. If you lined up 2 ipas nowadays in a brewery, 10/10 people would buy the hazy beer vs the clear beer. Haze may be a byproduct, but it doesn't mean it's a lazy beer. Not nowadays anyways. If you wait for the beer to clear out, it tastes completely different.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I think the haze is mostly a byproduct of the process, not the goal. And most beer drinkers would agree taste is far, far more important than appearance. But the haze has become synonymous with NEIPAs so I could understand why commercial brewers would care. I remember going to a new brewery in my area over Christmas and had their NEIPA, which wasn't too impressive. I was chatting with the guy next to me and said I wasn't that impressed and he made a comment that it wasn't even very hazy. Taste is by many accounts our weakest sense, so if you're trying to sell a beer to the masses nailing aroma and appearance definitely wouldn't hurt in their drive to win customers.

Off-topic, but to the point of the thread OP I think yeast makes a big difference in haze. I've been trying NEIPAs lately and my first 2 batches I didn't use a lot of flaked stuff or do an early biotrans dry hop. My 2nd batch I actually didn't use any flaked and they both were very hazy. Not orange juice hazy, but a very hazy gold color. The first one was in the keg for about 3 weeks before kicking I think and never dropped clear.

 

[motosapiens]

I'm using WLP067, or some random drags from neipa. Can't get wyeast in this country, so just trying to use the best one in my hands. My usual brewing ipa goes like this.

1.Mash high, lauter and sparge.

2.No bittering hops usually, 4~6oz of hopstand at 160~170F

3.Ferment for 1 week

4.Dry hop at day 3~4, 6~10oz, loose.

5.Cold crash for 3~4 days.

i would recommend putting half the dry hops in after 48 hours if you are pitching a nice healthy yeast, then wait another 5 days for the other half. This in my experience is part of what leads to haze (and delicious juicy flavors which are 198349813 more important than haze).

I would also recommend not cold crashing. That's going to precipitate some of the haze out.

with london esb yeast I ferment at 67 degrees for 2 days, then bump up the temp 1 degree per day to 73 degrees. I believe the fairly warm ferment also causes more haze. Certainly the regular IPA I accidentally heated up to 80 during fermentation was never did get clear.

I have also tried neipa with other yeasts, such as the sam adams strain, and they were quite clear, and tasty, but not really as juicy. So if you are not using the right yeast, you may not get the right results.

In my experience, the process that produces the haze also produces the juicy delicious flavor, so I just try to make it taste right, and let everything else happen.