My mash results seem to differ with everyone elses. what am i missing???

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

as_saturn_ascends

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Messages
68
Reaction score
3
Location
Pocatello
I hear alot of people saying they only use 1 quart of water per lb. of grain and that the grain will absorb about a tenth of the water.

My results are way different. the grain always seems to absorb alot more water. I always calculate with 1.5 quarts per lb. of grain and seem to get lower efficiency than i would like.

I use batch infusion and will usually throw in about 13lbs of grain for a 5 gallon batch. add 4.5 gallons of strike water to 153deg. wait 60 min. drain. add 5.5 gallons of water. at 170deg. wait 10 mins. drain again. I get 7-7.5 gallons of water that i boil down to 5.5 - thats 25% water loss. not 10%

and my efficiency is only about 65%. I crush very well. sometimes maybe too well.

just cant seem to figure out why my grain absorbs so much more water than what i read and why i can't bump my efficiency up to 80%.

I am making some killer beer though. just using more malt than i should have to and getting different results than what everyone else seems to be getting.
 
Sorry I just noticed that I said I mash out at 170deg, but actually i never quite get it that high. i always end up at 165deg.

would getting up above that 170 help alot?
 
In home brewing efficiency isn't really that big of a deal. I average around 70-75% and am very pleased with my wort quality. My last brew, an IPA, I tried a modified mash schedule of 45 minutes @ 147, 30 minutes @ 153, and 10 minutes @ 168. My efficiency going into the kettle ending up being 85%. I believe the reason for such a high efficiency was the the change in temperature, getting both the beta amylase and alpha amylase working for almost equal amounts of time. Since it was an IPA and I wanted a nice dry finish, there was nothing wrong with such a low mash temperature.

If you are making great beer, don't worry about what everyone else is doing! There is absolutely nothing wrong with 65% efficiency. A little bump to 70% would be good but you really don't need to go higher. Also, you don't want to sparge higher than 170 because you can potentially start pulling tannins from the grain husks and can end up with an astringent taste in your beer.
 
I use batch infusion and will usually throw in about 13lbs of grain for a 5 gallon batch. add 4.5 gallons of strike water to 153deg. wait 60 min. drain. add 5.5 gallons of water. at 170deg. wait 10 mins. drain again. I get 7-7.5 gallons of water that i boil down to 5.5 - thats 25% water loss. not 10%

and my efficiency is only about 65%. I crush very well. sometimes maybe too well.

just cant seem to figure out why my grain absorbs so much more water than what i read and why i can't bump my efficiency up to 80%.


Your numbers sound fine and normal to me, except the efficiency... It sounds like you're somehow factoring in the amount of boiloff into the amount of water absorbed by the grain... those are two separate issues. The boiloff you're getting is close to my typical - between 1 and 2 gallons per hour, or nearly 20% per hour when it's a dry but cold day. The important thing to realize is that the only thing boiling off is water, no sugars, so your efficiency is not affected by the amount boiled off. Whether you start with 7 gallons and boil off 2 gallons and have 5 gallons at 1.060 or only boil off 1 gallon and have 6 gallons at 1.050 there's the same amount of sugar in the wort (had to use that as an example since it's an easy 300 gravity units to compare).

I fly sparge, so my system is a bit different than yours, but I noticed a couple things that could be affecting your efficiency:

1) are you stirring like mad after adding your batch sparge infusion? I don't batch sparge, but I've seen in many posts that others say it is very important to stir like mad, wait 10 minutes, then drain.

2) to improve efficiency do 2 batch sparges. So divide the amount you need to sparge with (5.5 gallons water in your example) into 2 different batch sparges (or 2 sparges of 2.75 gallons each, again using your example).
 
I agree with Frodo on this pretty much completely. You did not mention what your pre-boil gravity actually was, so I can't check your efficiency calculations. A 75% efficiency isn't really bad and especially so when batch sparging. The grain absorption should be about 0.2 gallons per pound and using that figure, your runoff wort volume is about right at 7 - 7.5 gallons total based on doughing in with 1.5 qts/lb.

1.5 x 13 / 4 = 4.9 gallons into the mash
4.9 gal - (0.2 gal x 13 lbs) = 2.3 gal out of the mash
2.3 gal + 5.5 gal = 7.8 gal total runoff into the kettle (or 7.4 gal if using 4.5 gal initially)

IME, stirring the mash thoroughly and several times is the key to improving the efficiency. It is also very important to accurately measure your volumes as a relatively small error in measurement will skew the numbers significantly. The best way to get a handle on your lautering efficiency is to do the calculations using the pre-boil volume and gravity.

In the recent past I was accustomed to regularly getting about the same efficiency as your 75% and occasionally upwards of 80%. I fly sparge and always have. Not long ago I began stirring the mash frequently and particularly just prior to beginning the sparge. I vorlaugh for 5-10 minutes after stirring the mash before beginning the slow sparge. This resulted in a huge jump in my efficiency. I have made it standard practice to do it this way ever since and my lautering efficiency has been consistently close to 90% ever since and a few times it has exceeded 90%. Had I not experienced this first hand, I would not have believed it was possible based on many years of falling considerably short of those numbers. The first time it happened, I thought that I had made a mistake in my calcs. It was only after several more batches using the same procedure that I have become convinced. Milling the grist properly and doing a mashout also helps a lot, but I have been consistent with those, so the only other variable was the additional stirring from what I can tell. Stir a lot and stir thoroughly. Let us know if this improves your efficiency. BTW, efficiency has never been a big concern for me. I was perfectly happy with the 75%. IMO, it's much more important to know what to expect than to achieve high numbers.
 
Your water absorption seems right on line with me, don't worry about that. Your low efficiency is definitely down to your sparging technique. When I used to do one big batch sparge of 5+ gallons, I would get 60-65% efficiency. When I split it into two equal sparges, I ended up jumping to 70-75%. It's like if you rinse soap off a glass, you don't just rinse it the one time because there may be residual suds left behind. You probably rinse it a few times, right?

You could also be sparging a little hotter, as you suggested, although it won't get you nearly as much of a bump. The residual sugars are more soluble at higher temperatures, and tannin extraction only becomes a problem above 170 degrees. Most people use 180+ degree sparge water without a problem.
 
I was listening to a brewing network show and the were saying that their beer ends up better when the shoot for 70% efficiency. I don't remember exactly why, but as you extract more and more from the grain I do know that you increase the chance of extracting things like tannins. They thought that their beer just tasted richer when they didn't chase efficiency. As others have said, I would not stress about the efficiency number as much as trying to consistently get the same number from batch to batch.
 
In my latest AG batch, I went for 2qt/# of grain for the mash volume. I used Beer Smith to calculate what I would also need to sparge with, which was just over 2 gallons of water. I'm thinking that I'll mash a little lighter next time, since it wasn't easy to get all the grain into the sparge water at the same time.

Still, I hit about 81% efficiency this way. This is using the BIAB method too.

If I get a larger pot, I could do a full volume mash, without needing to sparge at all. I'm thinking of trying that in one of my coming brews (might be my next AG brew)... Going with the BIAB method does change things up a bit. At least from what I've been reading, and seeing.

Since I'm still pretty new to AG brewing (and brewing in general), I'm still getting the exact process that works best for me down. I do hope to have things more dialed-in within the next few brew days.
 
Ah thanks for all the posts! @Frodo & Catt22 Thanks for the advice on stirring!! I hardly stir my mash at all. usually i'll stir gently when i first add the grains. then again when i do my second sparge. So this may be just the advice i was looking for!!

Im not worried about efficiency when it comes to boiling. or how much water i lose there. Just during mashing. I will use 10 gallons of water and end up with 7.5 gallons going into the boil.

mjohnson thats interesting about that brew network show. My beers always do come out tasting fantastic! I was wondering about that. if they tasted better because my efficiency was low or if they would taste better at a higher efficiency. I think you may be on to something when it comes to getting that real drinkablility and refreshing snap!

Man thanks everyone! I will brew up my Crazy Mountain Man Amber Ale today and let you know if the stirring improves it that much and bumping my sparge water up to 168.

Thanks!!!
 
as_saturn_ascends, I had just assumed that you stirred the grain enough to ensure you didn't have any dough-balls in it... That will kill your efficiency like nothing else. Use enough water, in the mash, so that you can get the dough-balls out fairly fast, or as fast as possible. Do spend the time to make sure you've gotten rid of them, then let it mash... I check mine two, or three, more times once the balls are all broken up, giving it a stir each time. Check the water temp too, so that you don't go too low. Depending on the ambient air temp, you might want to insulate what you're mashing in (if a pot)... I'm planning on getting some reflective insulation to go around my brew pots before my next batch. That should help to keep the temps more stable.
 
You're welcome. Seriously, listen to the backlog of Brew Strong and the Jamil show on the Brewing Network - you'll learn a ton.

Sounds like you have your process dialed in pretty well. Just a suggestion: pick a beer that you like and get to where you can replicate it with the numbers you're using now, then start tweaking to get higher efficiency and see if you can tell the difference in the beer. That would be interesting to test out.

Good luck and happy brewing.
 
Ah thanks for all the posts! @Frodo & Catt22 Thanks for the advice on stirring!! I hardly stir my mash at all. usually i'll stir gently when i first add the grains. then again when i do my second sparge. So this may be just the advice i was looking for!!

You are almost certainly in for a big surprise today! Do not fear stirring the mash. Vorlaugh a gallon or two before running off the wort and you'll be good to go!
 
ahh thanks everyone! My efficiency did raise. Havent done the math yet, but was planning for a 6.7% brew and got an 7.3% brew. So my efficiency went up alot just by stirring the mash really well. Downside is I used too much water and instead got a 6 gallon batch at 6%

Still a solid brew and now ill have more of it:D can't beat that i guess.
 
ahh thanks everyone! My efficiency did raise. Havent done the math yet, but was planning for a 6.7% brew and got an 7.3% brew. So my efficiency went up alot just by stirring the mash really well. Downside is I used too much water and instead got a 6 gallon batch at 6%

Still a solid brew and now ill have more of it:D can't beat that i guess.

Good for you! I would guess that brought you up over 80%. Give us the grain bill and your pre-boil volume so we can see what you actually got efficiency wise. I'm curious about what your actual efficiency was on this batch.

You could have very easily boiled longer to reduce the volume, but if you do that you must hold off on the hop additions so as not to exceed the desired bittering level. This is another good reason to measure the pre-boil volume accurately. You can also top up with water before the end of the boil if you ae somewhat short on the desired volume.
 
Okay my grain bill was 15lbs. I mashed with 5.5 gallons 155deg then mashed out with 5.5 gallons 168deg.

I actually ended up with 9.5 gallons pre-boil volume. I was really worried about this. I boiled it for 138mins total. longest boil i've ever done and ever will do. I love that 90 min boil. but at least got it down to exactly 6 gallons.

my SG was 1.061
beerformulator.com calculated that at 5 gallons i should have been at 1.065

This batch will be interesting. Im using Nottingham for the first time. I usually always use safale US-05 and love love love that yeast.

I was a little sloppy this time around. I definitely should have used less water in the mash so that i could nail my post boil volume.

I would be interested in knowing what you think.
 
How did you get your mash/sparge water volumes? Figuring 1.5-2qt/# would have made the mash at 22.5-30 quarts of mash water. Then whatever you would have needed to sparge with to get your total pre-boil volume.

Personally, I've had really good results using the calculator built into Beer Smith for the water volumes.
 
I just used figures in my head. its almost exactly the same everytime i make a batch. Usually 4.5 - 5.5 gallons mash water. then 4.5 gallons sparge water. I am using a few extra pounds of grain this time and thought it might help efficiency to use more water. So i didnt even go by the beerformulator.com suggestions which always seem low to me. in this case 5.3 gal mash and 3 gal sparge.
 
I suspect that your volume measurements may be off considerably. You put 11 gallons into the mash. About 3 gallons should have been lost to grain absorption giving you a yield of about 8 gallons. You got 9.5 out of the mash. That's a large discrepancy. This would skew the efficiency calculation dramatically.

The theoretical max yield at 36 pppg should have been: 36 x 15 / 8.13 = 66.4 pre-boil gravity or using a 9.5 gal pre-boil volume 56.8

You got 61 x 6 / 9.5 = 38.5

38.5/56.8 x 100 = 67.8%

What makes me question your volume measurements is that you got way more out of the mash than should be normally expected.
 
That is exactly what i was thinking as well. Usually i lose 2-3 gallons in the mash. How funny usually the last thing i have trouble with is mash volume. lol oh well at least i know what to do different next time. This beer is already smelling delicious and fermenting away! Cant wait to drink it.
 
Back
Top