I see this topic a lot regarding elements rusting in brew kettles. My new electric brewery has been through 9 batches. The element rusted on the first and I could care less. Beer tastes great! I don't know if that will always be the case, but right now it's good.
My heating element rusts and I don't care.
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iijakii
Well-Known Member
Eh, the pipes feeding your water supply are likely all rusted to **** as well. No big deal.
Been electric brewing for 8 or 9 years. My element bases are rusted and nasty looking. I have never tasted any off flavored. YMMV.
Only thing I've read is the rust when in contact with acidic chemicals (some/most wort?) can release toxic chemicals into the beer/wort.
This isn't an issue with water in your household pipes since the pH is neutral.
Not sure how critical this really is, but just a heads up!
This isn't an issue with water in your household pipes since the pH is neutral.
Not sure how critical this really is, but just a heads up!
UndeadFred
Well-Known Member
Rust (iron oxide) is toxic? Now copper if turned green from acid exposure can make compounds that are harmful but I have never heard that about iron... I used a food grade paint on my $5 close out elements and they have been fine.. It I hadn't bought that paint for an unrelated project I wouldn't have bothered.
Only thing I've read is the rust when in contact with acidic chemicals (some/most wort?) can release toxic chemicals into the beer/wort.
This isn't an issue with water in your household pipes since the pH is neutral.
Not sure how critical this really is, but just a heads up!
If you are assuming every municipal water source and well water source is neutral at 7 PH then your assumption is wrong.
I've seen plenty of rusty cast iron water mains....
Been to a few places with a ton of iron in the water, stained the sinks and toilets something awful, never thought it was a health hazard?
I understand iron is not so good for brewing, but the question is how much is introduced from an element base?
Been to a few places with a ton of iron in the water, stained the sinks and toilets something awful, never thought it was a health hazard?
I understand iron is not so good for brewing, but the question is how much is introduced from an element base?
processhead
Well-Known Member
IMHO, All-SS heating elements are a solution searching for a problem. Minor rust on the element base is not an issue unless you want to make it one.
Rhumbline
Well-Known Member
So... I'm the only one who read the title to the tune of "Jimmy cracked corn"?
Disappointing...
Disappointing...
This could be debated, but I'd say generally rusted pipes etc are not a hazard since you're dealing with cold relatively neutral water (so nothing gets stripped off and/or reacts).
Though the facts are there, how much of an issue this REALLY is seems to be unknown.
At the end of the day I went with the SS base because I needed an element and the option was available (for basically the same price). I've seen some older setups that didn't have the option at the time. If the elements already in place and the beer tastes good, maybe it's not worth fixing?
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Im shocked the beer tastes good...I know water from a tap with mentioned rust stains doesnt... I guess its subjective...
The iron certainly wont hurt you your body and the yeast can usually benefit from it.... they used to spray total cereal with so much iron it would actually flow toward a magnet if a magnet were put into a bowl full of water with some total in it.
The iron certainly wont hurt you your body and the yeast can usually benefit from it.... they used to spray total cereal with so much iron it would actually flow toward a magnet if a magnet were put into a bowl full of water with some total in it.
I don't understand why anyone would go substandard with food equipment. Maybe a few years ago there was no choice. But today multiple vendors sell SS based elements. They only cost a few bucks... So why not switch?
-BD
-BD
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I would have to agree..
I'm a pretty Frugal guy and I had no issues shelling out the $40 for a new all stainless setup.... There are lead free brass based 4500w elements for as little as $15 shipped on ebay...
Small price to pay for a possible huge improvement in the quality of my beers.
people often spend much more here for much less practical reasons.... I cant help but think of a $300 "blichmann" kettle with a rusty element mounted in it here and laugh thinking of the irony... (no pun intended)
I saw a special once where they made beer with pond water that was perfectly safe to drink too since the process kills the germs in the water but I still have no intention of sourcing my brewing water from the toilet either despite it being "perfectly safe" to do so...I guess I would like to avoid rusty stuff in my boil kettle for the same superficial reasons...
processhead
Well-Known Member
Consider that the vast majority of the heating elements currently in use by brewers are not SS water heater elements. Every one of these elements is intended for use in potable water systems in peoples homes and businesses.
To suggest they are somehow not "food grade" is inaccurate.
I can understand the bling factor of a nice shiny, all-SS system. Were I to start my build all over from scratch, I might even pony up for a SS element.
I am not laying this on Brundog in any-way. But to imply that a bit of rust on an element base will somehow mess up a brewer's batch is a real stretch of the imagination.
If you are worried about off flavors in your beer, rule out the easy stuff first, like sub-standard sanitation, poor quality ingredients, or improper brewing techniques.
processhead
Well-Known Member
Iron that affects the taste of water is usually in a soluble form and is often not even visible.
While rusty water certainly affects the appearance, it is iron oxide, not iron. Iron oxide at least can be filtered or settled out before you brew with it.
If the water tastes OK, regardless of the appearance, it is probably just fine to brew with.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
The thing is those hot water tank manufacturers dont recommend drinking or cooking from their tanks.. as well as the CDC, EPA and other government agencies.. mainly for reasons like lead from pipes after the tank and other heavy metals that can accumulate in them. It a gray area... there is another recent thread on this that got derailed but hit on some of this.
Im fairly sure the standard hot water tank elements are not technically certified as food grade if I remember another thread on this a while back...
I have an incolony stainless ripple with a stainless base and I assure you its NOT shiny or even bright.... But its also not corroding and disolving into my beer...
Are any of the elements utilized by homebrewers "technically certified as food grade"?
Who would certify this type of thing? I have never seen an element claiming to be "food grade".
FuzzeWuzze
I Love DIY
And you likely never will, because it probably costs money. As said even the standard Camco elements will never be listed as food grade, why would the company waste time and effort when its not their intended purpose. As others have said your not supposed to use your hot water for cooking, many people don't even know that fact, mostly to reduce lead from pipes but there are other contaminants as well.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
True, but the "NEW" all stainless elements camco and other are selling were supposedly manufactured specifically for food grade applications such as brewing... Unlike the standard water heater elements...
Here is an exert form the electric brewery.com site...
"We use the Camco #02963 5500W 240VAC ultra low watt density (ULWD) RIPP element (new premium stainless steel models specifically made for beer brewing are now used in our Heating Element Kits shown in the picture at left). This heating element has proven to be very popular amongst home brewers with electric setups. All Camco elements are UL listed for USA/Canada. One element provides enough heat to bring a typical 10-20 gallon batch to a boil within a reasonable time frame.
The element is ultra-low watt density (ULWD) which means that the heat produced per square inch along the element is very low which reduces the chance of scorching or caramelizing the boiling wort. These elements are typically folded over on themselves making ...."
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
The same agencies that approve anything else like a cooler or a pump? I think fuzzy hit the nail on the head.... There has to be enough demand to justify paying for such certifications otherwise its just not worth it to the manufacturer.. Theres something to be said for the fact that you wont find regular steel components in direct contact with beer or wort in any commercial brewery...
processhead
Well-Known Member
What can be said about the use of carbon steel in a commercial brewery relates more to minimizing down-time and avoiding system maintenance rather than it's affect on beer flavor.
I will grant you that no brewery today would intentionally build a system based entirely on carbon steel components. Remember, that we don't have to go too far back in brewing history to a time when mash-tuns, kettles, and fermenters were constructed of wood, stone, copper, brass, vitrified carbon steel and other materials. Those breweries brewed good beer in spite of this fact.
Modern materials like SS in today's commercial breweries have made reduced maintenance, operational efficiency, and yes quality control, better than in the past.
processhead
Well-Known Member
I suspect electricbrewery.com's statement has more to do with the demand for their product by home brewers, rather than any specific certification of the element for brewing or food use. You can be the judge.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
yes that was mentioned... they dont say they were certified for food use but rather that they were made for that use... I have every reason to believe thats true.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
yes, and they used lead in its construction too... Which was shown to be the cause of many health concerns later so that doesnt really mean much except they were limited by what they had and what they knew at the time... They also cooked with unlined copper pots and utensils which are now outlawed from being used in many countries for food contact in anything but beer brewing and they put mercury on cuts and wounds because they didnt know better.
Who knows how good the beer really was then? Were you around? Ive read that there was some pretty nasty stuff being made and sold back in the day.. look at all the ingredients like molasses that were so commonly used to mask flavors but not used so much anymore? I read the Germans didnt even understand what yeast was when they wrote their purity law... I imagine they didnt have too many strains to choose from then..
anyone reading this thread is better off than they were in knowing that while the iron wont hurt them they they can avoid the rust and eventual failure completely if they choose with a small $40 investment in a stainless element...
NathPowe
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This thread is now inane to me. You are justifying using low quality equipment, which just does not compute to me. But hey, it's a free country so build and brew what you like. Just don't be offended if someone takes a pass on your brew because they aren't keen on the equipment which made it.
-BD
-BD
Here you go stainless at a solid price, solves all the issues.
This summer I met a cousin in law that brews too. He was super excited that I did but was bummed out he didn't have any homebrew on hand to share with me. After looking at his system I'm super happy he didn't. Bleach and Iron and Brass everywhere and fermenting in something pretty positive use to hold oil.
This summer I met a cousin in law that brews too. He was super excited that I did but was bummed out he didn't have any homebrew on hand to share with me. After looking at his system I'm super happy he didn't. Bleach and Iron and Brass everywhere and fermenting in something pretty positive use to hold oil.
Did you hear banjos playing in the background?
j/k
Cheers
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
yeah I looked at those too... the only issue is they are not ULWD.... They are more like this, which has a lead free brass base and what I have been using for my HLT element for 2 years now... http://www.ebay.com/itm/200909059093?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT.
Now if they came out with a ripple element for those kind of prices that would be nice...
Something to be mentioned... All the brass sold for plumbing use today is of the lead free variety that used to only be found in California.. I read somewhere that up to 8% lead can be used in it but I believe that was false.... I believe they were actually confusing the standards for the newer "lead free" solder which has much more lead init than the new brass. That said the element base in my HLT (which only sees water) is my only current brass component
Yea pretty sure these are the same ones Ebrew.Supply stocks. they are 304 and seem to be well built. The ebay guy sells ripple but they are more like you were saying at $27 a pop
http://www.ebay.com/itm/240v-5500w-...hash=item4af3b4b9c6:m:mdIyL6EqEyF1ASEItqojG9g
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
This summer I met a cousin in law that brews too. He was super excited that I did but was bummed out he didn't have any homebrew on hand to share with me. After looking at his system I'm super happy he didn't. Bleach and Iron and Brass everywhere and fermenting in something pretty positive use to hold oil.
That brew would give a whole new meaning to the word "Schlitz" as it passed through the body...
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
thats still a great deal! I see he has the 4500w ones too! I am limited to 4500w because A its more than enough and has a lower watt density than the 5500w element of the same demensions and
B, I only have a 30a service and I like to run my 1800w rims at the same time as my 4500w HLT so I bought one from spike brewing through Kals website for $40+ which works well.
I noticed those elements look longer? I wonder what the dimensions are?
4500w
I bought the straight 5500w ones from him for my system. Im still building and have yet to use them yet but I dont think I will have any issues.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
yeah I found it as you were typing...
they appear longer though... wish he stated the dimensions.I am willing to bet they are in fact the same ones Ebrew sells... You can almost guarantee that if a company works with a chinese manufacturer that same product will end up being sold direct from china without as much markup... good for the consumer , not so good for the distributors. I see ebrews elements have a black terminal block but thats likely something to do with a contract that ebrew has with the manufacturer stating they cannot sell that exact product direct...
