My Founders Brewing Co Story

[AdamWiz]

So in other words.........you still can't make a legitimate argument as to why it needs to be kept secret. And you can claim you're not being political all you want, I know conservative talk when I hear it. Tell me I'm wrong - tell me you're not a GOP voter and I'll eat my hat.

 

[MisterTipsy]

So in other words.........you still can't make a legitimate argument as to why it needs to be kept secret. And you can claim you're not being political all you want, I know conservative talk when I hear it. Tell me I'm wrong - tell me you're not a GOP voter and I'll eat my hat.

Start eating your hat and stop making ridiculous assumptions. I don't support a political party and don't even vote.

Let's say I'm a home brewer and have the recipe for beer X. I can make beer X for 25 cents a bottle. It costs me $3 per bottle to buy it in the store. Guess what? I'm not buying beer X anymore and thank you so much for giving me your recipe so I no longer have to pay outrages prices for your beer!

I'll be sure to post the recipe on the internet so even more people can make your beer and not buy it in the store. I'll even post a copy of the private emails you sent me and tell the beer making community how cool you are, but I still don't see myself buying your beer anymore. Thanks a lot, SUCKER!!!

P.S. - beer X tastes better when I brew it

 

[AdamWiz]

Start eating your hat and stop making ridiculous assumptions.

Wasn't talking about you. Although I am done with that angle anyway - I shouldn't have gone there.

Let's say I'm a home brewer and have the recipe for beer X. I can make beer X for 25 cents a bottle. It costs me $3 per bottle to buy it in the store. Guess what? I'm not buying beer X anymore and thank you so much for giving me your recipe so I no longer have to pay outrages prices for your beer!

I'll be sure to post the recipe on the internet so even more people can make your beer and not buy it in the store. I'll even post a copy of the private emails you sent me and tell the beer making community how cool you are, but I still don't see myself buying your beer anymore. Thanks a lot, SUCKER!!!

P.S. - beer X tastes better when I brew it

This is the first legitimate argument I have heard, although still not really convinced - by nature, people who make their own beer are not going to buy as much of their beer in the first place. In fact, as a homebrewer the only beers I buy regularly other than sours are beers that I am trying to make something similar to. Then I buy more to compare my test batches to, and more to have people taste side-by-side once I have come close. So when it is all said and done, by the time I am successful at cloning a beer I have bought far more of it than I otherwise would have. How many people on this board alone have recipes for Hopslam? Yet it still never sits on the shelf more than a few days without being sold out. How many people have Pliny Recipes (provided directly by Vinny, BTW)? Yet people far and wide still pine for it and even pay inflated prices on the internet. I could give 100 other examples - so while the logic for your argument is sound, in real life it just doesn't seem to happen like that. Plus, the recipe in question is from a one-off beer that they are done making - thus they obviously have no plans to sell me any more of it anyway. If I wanted to buy some right now, I couldn't.

 

[MisterTipsy]

Show me one instance where a brewery gave out a recipe and their sales increased as a result.

Tell me why a business would want to decrease demand for their product? Some breweries like Russian River have more demand than supply and they don't intend to expand anytime soon. It's a good problem to have. They see no problem giving away their recipes because it doesn't interfere with their successful business model.

Founders, on the other hand is a brewery that could be as large as Sam Adams someday. They want to get bigger. They have investors who want returns on their investment. They don't think it's wise to give away their recipes. They want to do things to increase sales, not decrease them. They aren't in a position to satisfy a demand that they can't fill because they have the capacity to fill it.

Open your own business someday and give away all the things that make your business viable and let me know how that works out for you.

 

[AdamWiz]

How many people on this board alone have recipes for Hopslam? Yet it still never sits on the shelf more than a few days without being sold out.

Bell's is WAY bigger and more successful than Founders. I mean, we're talking about the biggest true craft brewery east of the Mississippi (sorry Sam Adams). And their 2 top selling beers BY FAR(Oberon and Two Hearted) both have the recipes out there. Doesn't seen to have hurt them much, judging by the gigantic new brewhouse they just opened. They put the Two Hearted recipe in "Zymurgy" themselves, for crying out loud. And they have helped a lot of people who contact them about homebrew versions of Oberon. So don't give me the "It's OK for a small brewery but not for a gig, successful, expanding one" argument. I'm not saying releasing the recipe would increase sales - just that it wouldn't really decrease them either.

Plus, the recipe in question is from a one-off beer that they are done making - thus they obviously have no plans to sell me any more of it anyway. If I wanted to buy some right now, I couldn't.

So explain to me how I would be taking food out of their investors' mouths by homebrewing a beer THEY NO LONGER SELL and never even bottled in the first place. Bell's isn't afraid of people brewing their two top sellers, yet Founders should be afraid of us brewing a one-off?

 

[MisterTipsy]

Who are you to say they will never brew it again? For all you know they have plans to make cashew brown or whatever it's called and produce it regularly.

Regarding the remainder of your post, I think you have a comprehension problem and I no longer have the patience to solve it for you.

Bottom line - not all breweries are the same. Just because one brewery does something, it doesn't mean other breweries should to do the same thing. Every brewery has their own set of goals. If they think giving away their recipes might interfere with those goals, then you shouldn't be too surprised.

 

[Jukas]

Start eating your hat and stop making ridiculous assumptions. I don't support a political party and don't even vote.

Let's say I'm a home brewer and have the recipe for beer X. I can make beer X for 25 cents a bottle. It costs me $3 per bottle to buy it in the store. Guess what? I'm not buying beer X anymore and thank you so much for giving me your recipe so I no longer have to pay outrages prices for your beer!

I'll be sure to post the recipe on the internet so even more people can make your beer and not buy it in the store. I'll even post a copy of the private emails you sent me and tell the beer making community how cool you are, but I still don't see myself buying your beer anymore. Thanks a lot, SUCKER!!!

P.S. - beer X tastes better when I brew it

Seems highly legitimate. I mean Vinnie gives away not just processes but entire recipe's, including his flagship beers(PtE, PtY, Supplication, Consecration etc).

Because of his generosity to homebrewers Russian River Brewpub is a total ghost town (Said by no one, ever). The pub is always packed, and even local bottle shops have a hard time keeping some of their beers in stock.

Just because some brewers choose to give away their knowledge, recipe and process doesn't mean others have to. I (and the OP I'm sure) would have liked it if Founders had been willing to answer our question but they're certainly not required to. I do however think the cheesy canned response is doing their PR department a disservice.

 

[MisterTipsy]

Like I said, more demand than supply is a good problem to have.

 

[olefattguy]

Google is your friend:
"COMMERCIAL DESCRIPTION
Imperial Brown Ale. Aged in maple syrup–bourbon barrels for 287 days in the caves beneath Grand Rapids. Crushed cashews are added into the fermenters and the barrels—and you won’t doubt it when you try it. "

Now how hard was that? Stop pestering the brewer about stuff that already is out there.

 

[MisterTipsy]

It's not like adding nuts to a beer is some complex riddle either. There are only a few ways to do it. Pick one and brew the damn beer.

 

[Jukas]

Like I said, more demand than supply is a good problem to have.

Except other breweries like Bells, Lagunitas and Stone doing the same thing kind of shoots a hole in that argument.

Look I'm not saying they have to give out a process or a recipe, my only point was I took the time to write you, as a fan of your product to ask you a specific question. You can take the 2 minutes to write back and say sorry we've made a business decision not to share. Sending a copy/paste canned response is poor marketing & PR.

 

[MisterTipsy]

It wasn't an argument. It was simply a statement that explains why RR doesn't have a problem giving a way their recipes.

It doesn't mean a brewery should only give out their recipes if they have a higher demand than supply.

Now we are back to the circular argument of Brewery XYZ does it, so other breweries should too which is complete non-sense.

 

[MisterTipsy]

ooops...double post

The response from Founders wouldn't have hurt my feelings if that is how they responded to my email. Yes, it's a canned response. So what? It's professional and it tells you what you need to know.

Do you really need a custom letter made just for you that says their recipe is a secret? Maybe you feel you deserve some free Founders' schwag as a consolation prize for not getting their recipe? Maybe some coupons for free beer? Perhaps a T-shirt?

 

[Rundownhouse]

So in other words.........you still can't make a legitimate argument as to why it needs to be kept secret.

You shouldn't try to argue this angle. There are lots of reasons NOT to do something, starting with "It takes effort." You should be the one supplying reasons that they SHOULD publish their recipes. Like most things in this world, the answer is, "Inertia."

Bell's is WAY bigger and more successful than Founders. I mean, we're talking about the biggest true craft brewery east of the Mississippi (sorry Sam Adams). And their 2 top selling beers BY FAR(Oberon and Two Hearted) both have the recipes out there. Doesn't seen to have hurt them much, judging by the gigantic new brewhouse they just opened.

I'd love to see you give this little speech to the guys at Northern Brewer, who spent time and effort cloning Two-Hearted, marketing it, selling it, and then got presented with a cease-and-desist from Bell's.

The "legitimate" arguments for a brewery not providing recipes can begin and end with, "Its not worth the effort," right up until YOU provide some reasoned arguments for why it would be in their net benefit. One step down the ladder from whining about not being given a recipe is whining about not being given an explanation for not being given a recipe.

It turns out, you're not entitled to either.

 

[Andrewtherooster]

Founders has always been pretty tight-lipped about this sort of stuff. No surprise. I like their beers, but I guess I don't understand the hype. They all taste and feel very similar to me.

 

[MisterTipsy]

Founders has always been pretty tight-lipped about this sort of stuff. No surprise. I like their beers, but I guess I don't understand the hype. They all taste and feel very similar to me.

I'm waiting for a nitpicker to say Cerise tastes nothing like Devil Dancer. Therefore, your statement is invalid.

But, I'm not saying it, because I understand what you mean.

I've tried several Founders beers and all of them are solid. My only complaint about the brewery is their limited edition brews are waaaaay too limited and are basically impossible to get.

 

[biochemedic]

Let's say I'm a home brewer and have the recipe for beer X. I can make beer X for 25 cents a bottle. It costs me $3 per bottle to buy it in the store. Guess what? I'm not buying beer X anymore and thank you so much for giving me your recipe so I no longer have to pay outrages prices for your beer!

I'll be sure to post the recipe on the internet so even more people can make your beer and not buy it in the store. I'll even post a copy of the private emails you sent me and tell the beer making community how cool you are, but I still don't see myself buying your beer anymore. Thanks a lot, SUCKER!!!

On the contrary, when Spike from Terrapin Brewing personally responded to an e-mail with hints on how to brew their Gamma Ray Wheatwine (ie, grain proportions and yeast suggestion -- the hop strains and IBU levels are listed on their website), I was extremely grateful and have used his ideas to successfully brew my first Hefeweizen. Eventually, it will help me clone Gamma Ray, but I'll still buy Gamma Ray whenever I find it in the store...

Not only that, I'm even more likely than I was before to buy other Terrapin brews as well...

 

[Jukas]

The response from Founders wouldn't have hurt my feelings if that is how they responded to my email. Yes, it's a canned response. So what? It's professional and it tells you what you need to know.

Fyi, I never said it hurt my feelings, I said I thought it was a poor PR move and they could have done better.

Do you really need a custom letter made just for you that says their recipe is a secret? Maybe you feel you deserve some free Founders' schwag as a consolation prize for not getting their recipe? Maybe some coupons for free beer? Perhaps a T-shirt?

Seriously? No I don't feel Founders owes me anything, nor did I display any sense of entitlement about anything. I think you're seriously reaching on a non sequitur.

Go look at Founder's twitter page, they have people dedicated to social media, and interacting with their consumers. They could very easily have had that same person reply to the email with a simple one paragraph response that would have taken them all of sixty seconds to type rather than a 5 second copy/paste.

Dehumanizing communications only lends to alienating consumers, it's their right to communicate in such a way, it just may or may not be in their best interest.

 

[MisterTipsy]

Fyi, I never said it hurt my feelings, I said I thought it was a poor PR move and they could have done better.

Dehumanizing communications only lends to alienating consumers, it's their right to communicate in such a way, it just may or may not be in their best interest.

If you feel alienated as a potential customer because you didn't get a custom made response, you are definitely taking it personally. You feel disrespected as a potential customer because they didn't take the time to write a letter especially for you. If that's not taking it personally, I don't know what is.

Fortunately for Founders, you can't buy their beer or stop buying it simply because they sent you a canned response. When they get around to distributing in CA, don't buy their beer. That will really teach them a lesson in PR.

You definitely aren't taking it as personally as the OP. I'd like to read his huffy puffy letter that he sent Founders after he didn't get what he wanted. I'm sure it's pure gold.

 

[MisterTipsy]

Not only that, I'm even more likely than I was before to buy other Terrapin brews as well...

You're a good man who understands the concept of reciprocity.

Kudos to you, Sir !

 

[iambeer]

It seems to me the response pasted in the original post is perfectly polite and professional. And it does answer the questions asked. It is not 'fired back' and it's certainly not 'dehumanized. communication'.

At one of the spectrum the complainers think protected information which helps ensure the company's continued success should be freely available. They even try to justify that giving away their recipe will help sales (good luck convincing any serious person with that). On the other end of this cyclic argument they criticize the brewery's PR practices. Seriously. Really.

It's hard to believe the comments brought up in this thread about this excellent brewery.

 

[Jukas]

If you feel alienated as a potential customer because you didn't get a custom made response, you are definitely taking it personally. You feel disrespected as a potential customer because they didn't take the time to write a letter especially for you. If that's not taking it personally, I don't know what is.

Fortunately for Founders, you can't buy their beer or stop buying it simply because they sent you a canned response. When they get around to distributing in CA, don't buy their beer. That will really teach them a lesson in PR.

You definitely aren't taking it as personally as the OP. I'd like to read his huffy puffy letter that he sent Founders after he didn't get what he wanted. I'm sure it's pure gold.

I'm not taking it personally at all. I never once said I felt disrespected or alienated. Stop putting words in my mouth (fingers) and try re-reading what I actually posted.

In my reply to their canned answer, I said...

Michelle,

While I understand, I was hoping Founders would follow Stone's suit and be willing to share a reasonable facsimile home brew recipe.

Until Fonders can distribute to CA I guess I'll just have to retort with sadpanda.

Doesn't really seem like I felt disrespected, or alienated or that I communicated a way to indicate that they owed my anything does it?

 

[MisterTipsy]

I'm not taking it personally at all. I never once said I felt disrespected or alienated. Stop putting words in my mouth (fingers) and try re-reading what I actually posted.

In my reply to their canned answer, I said...

Doesn't really seem like I felt disrespected, or alienated or that I communicated a way to indicate that they owed my anything does it?

but you also said

Dehumanizing communications only lends to alienating consumers, it's their right to communicate in such a way, it just may or may not be in their best interest.

So according to you, they alienate consumers, but not you, the person who made the claim. Got it.

 

[Jukas]

but you also said

Dehumanizing communications only lends to alienating consumers, it's their right to communicate in such a way, it just may or may not be in their best interest.

So according to you, they alienate consumers, but not you, the person who made the claim. Got it.

lends to != guaranteed to. It's true I said it, and it's true I believe it. However in this particular case I have so little interaction with Founders (since I can only get it through trades) that I'm not likely to see that kind of continued interaction from them that could lead to alienating me as a consumer. Perhaps I should have stated that clearer.

Though from what others have said, it seems that style of communication mostly seems happens via email. Either way, we're down to circular semantics now. You believe it's perfectly acceptable and professional for them to reply he way they did (and technically it is) and I believe (solely in my opinion) they could do better in their communication with consumers.

 

[MisterTipsy]

Sounds good to me. I'm now almost convinced you didn't take it personally.

The OP is a different story.....

 

[govner1]

It seems to me that a lot of good brewing time has been wasted on an insignificant issue!

 

[caber2615]

The OP is a different story.....

...Or did you take this thread personally? Jeez...it’s still going? 9 pages later?

I posted over 2 weeks ago that they replied back to me with actual information about the process rather than a canned response. My response to them must have been "gold" since it worked...and by the way, they sent me a t-shirt and stickers too.

You will be likely be devastated to hear that my 5 gallon batch of Cashew Mountain Brown is now fermenting. I am currently researching marketing opportunities to put Founders out of business with it...

 

[iambeer]

I am currently researching marketing opportunities to put Founders out of business with it...

Wonderful!

 

[JordanThomas]

LOL, good luck putting them out of business (I know it was a joke...). Care to share the recipe and process for introducing the cashews?!?!?

 

[caber2615]

Care to share the recipe and process for introducing the cashews?!?!?

They crush up an "insane" amount of cashews and introduce them in fermentation vessels and the maple barrells they age it in.