My first time using a yeast cake

[lx302]

Let me pose another senario.
How does a brew pub control their yeast and do they reuse? Don't they reuse the same yeast in the fermentors since they are brewing the same beer over and over? Or do they have a way to filter out the slurry from the yeast before so?

 

[Got Trub?]

The argument that just dumping the wort onto the yeast cake causes off flavors is a good argument. But if you are making the same beer or something close I don't see much of a problem unless it is way over pitched.

From what I have read too is that you need to put a higher gravity beer on top of whatever the yeast just fermented, is this correct?

I have a 1.0645 Porter that I want to dump a 1.1 Russian Imperial Stout onto. I think that I will wash the yeast anyways just because I don't want to take up extra room in the primary with extra trub.

I just think you wouldn't want to go from a 1.1 RIS to a 1.040 Light Ale.

This would be cruelty to yeast!

Those poor creatures in your 1.0645 Porter have given their all to ferment that beer. They are tired and beat up. For something as big as a 1.1 RIS I would brew something around 1.040 to get a batch of supremely healthy yeast ready to tackle that bad boy!

GT

 

[humann_brewing]

This would be cruelty to yeast!

Those poor creatures in your 1.0645 Porter have given their all to ferment that beer. They are tired and beat up. For something as big as a 1.1 RIS I would brew something around 1.040 to get a batch of supremely healthy yeast ready to tackle that bad boy!

GT

What if I washed the yeast and make a starter with the washed yeast and let them chew on some 1.040 wort for a couple of days?

P.S. You'll have to excuse me, I am a super newbie at re-using yeast, in fact this is my first time.

 

[Bob]

Bob,

I read the Wiki article. So it stated using a yeast cake is overpitching.
OK, so if I use the example in the article 228ml of slurry would be an average amount used for a mid specific gravity brew. That equals to about 7.7 oz of slurry or 1 cup,taken from the primary and then you can pitch that into your wort using a clean primary.
So to clarify, this should be just as effective as a yeast starter and not as bad as using the full yeast cake?

100% correct! Using an actively-fermenting starter or fresh krauesen beer is as effective, though dilution can be a problem.

Cheers!

Bob

 

[Bob]

What NQ3X is saying about yeast production and the flavors it creates makes sense, but wouldn't that also put a lot more emphasis on your yeast starters as a potential for off favors, which in my opinion are often over looked.

That supposes that you must always use a starter when pitching harvested yeast. You don't. You can pitch the slurry directly into the fresh wort. It's a lot easier than building up a starter!

I would also think that over pitching is more relevant in some styles than others. If you are using a pretty neutral yeast it probably won't be as big of a deal and may help attenuation (assuming you want that) but then again if you want neutral yeast you could just pitch a $1 dry yeast so you don't save much.

100% true! Overpitching is disaster in pale lager beers and English and Belgian ales, not so much in Bock or Imperial Stout. In the first case, the styles will reveal the slightest flaw in fermentation - and one of the classic results of overpitching is autolysis, according to Noonan. In the second, overpitching prevents the secretion of the esters so crucial to Belgian and English ales. In the third/fourth, the flavors classic to the styles will mask the byproducts of a flawed ferment.

How does a brew pub control their yeast and do they reuse? Don't they reuse the same yeast in the fermentors since they are brewing the same beer over and over? Or do they have a way to filter out the slurry from the yeast before so?

Every brewery in which I worked repitched yeast, often out to dozens of generations. Not washed, not processed in any way; just taken from the cone of a fermenter and pitched into the fresh wort. The trick is to recognize what good yeast looks, feels, smells and tastes like, and to recognize the qualities of a quality ferment.

Some breweries have sophisticated (or not) laboratories dedicated to yeast management, in which they propagate the strain, acid-wash the yeast, do cell counts with methylene blue, the whole shebang. Those breweries can pitch the same yeast basically indefinitely, hundreds if not thousands of generations.

Cheers!

Bob

 

[Got Trub?]

What if I washed the yeast and make a starter with the washed yeast and let them chew on some 1.040 wort for a couple of days?

P.S. You'll have to excuse me, I am a super newbie at re-using yeast, in fact this is my first time.

That would work much better. That is what I do when repitching "normal" beers and have to wait a few days before I brew again. I brew a lot of lower gravity beers and frequently keg and brew the same day. On those occasions I just repitch an appropriate amount of slurry. But again those are 1.038-1.050 SG beers.

You are going to need a big starter - about 3-4 liters worth.

GT

 

[fratermus]

Simply, a thing which looks dirty is dirty.

This really does surprise me. I believe this approach is reduced to the point of distortion.

Is a culture on a petri dish dirty? Sure looks dirty. Really gross. Better open it up and clean it. Biological (and microbiological) processes are not always pretty to look at. It does not follow that they are therefore contaminated.

In other words, I deliberately intend to lead newb onlookers down the path of cleanliness. Cleanliness is not misleading; it's good brewing practice.

Do we encourage the newb to reach in and scrub out all that dirty-looking braun hefe while it's fermenting? Looks dirty. Must be dirty. Or would that actually make matters worse?

I mean to say, really; how long does it take to harvest the yeast and clean the fermenter? Ten minutes? I can do it in five. Even a newb has the gear to successfully harvest yeast today to pitch tomorrow; every kitchen has the hardware, and sanitizer is a staple in any home brewery. All it takes is the will to apply good practices.

Not every failure to follow the guidance you have provided is attributable to laziness or lack of willpower. We make choices in our homebrewing, and not all these choices would be right for commercial clients.

I argue it is more likely that a newb is more likely to microbially contaminate the next batch by yeast washing than by pitching onto the cake. Is the increased chance of contamination through handling worth getting the new wort away from the old trub and krausen? That is a decision the homebrewer makes.

I have no dog in this fight. I don't repitch (the AW batch experiment at the top of this thread notwithstanding) and I don't wash yeast.

In a commercial setting, where time is money, if you suggest a brewer knock out into an uncleaned fermenter, you'd be laughed out of the brewery.

Sure, same as if we recommened fermenting in buckets, cooling with fountain pumps, pitching a smackpack, using more than one strain of yeast in the brewhouse. Horses for courses.

Tell me, we homebrewers, who can take the time and effort to make our beer the best it can possibly be, why on earth are we suggesting the skipping of steps which are part and parcel of good, wise brewing practice? What is saved by skipping steps? Where's the pressure?

There is a diminishing returns issue when advancing from "beer I like to brew and consume on my table" to "the best it can possibly be".

Why are people using extracts when they could be doing AG?
Why are they priming with sugar when they could be krausening?
Why aren't they counterpressure filling their bottles?
Why aren't they using conicals?
Why aren't they [using my pet technology]?

It boggles the mind that the same person who painstakingly applies good brewing practice in every other respect will just skip harvesting and cleaning the fermenter when they take no time and little effort to perform.

If one boggled every time a homebrewer deviates (productively or counterproductively) from commercial processes then one would be a full--time boggler.

 

[RBlagojevich]

fratermus: it seems to me like you're arguing over a relatively insignificant point. The main argument against pitching onto the yeast cake isn't about cleanliness; it's about the fact that in order to produce certain delicious flavors, yeasts need to grow and reproduce.

 

[fratermus]

The main argument against pitching onto the yeast cake isn't about cleanliness; it's about the fact that in order to produce certain delicious flavors, yeasts need to grow and reproduce.

That is exactly my point.

 

[Bob]

This really does surprise me. I believe this approach is reduced to the point of distortion.

Is a culture on a petri dish dirty? Sure looks dirty. Really gross. Better open it up and clean it. Biological (and microbiological) processes are not always pretty to look at. It does not follow that they are therefore contaminated.

Do we encourage the newb to reach in and scrub out all that dirty-looking braun hefe while it's fermenting? Looks dirty. Must be dirty. Or would that actually make matters worse?

Now you're distorting the importance of cleanliness by using rather silly examples. I clearly wrote about cleaning equipment after you're through using it. Not cleaning something halfway through.

Not every failure to follow the guidance you have provided is attributable to laziness or lack of willpower. We make choices in our homebrewing, and not all these choices would be right for commercial clients.

When the choice is between following good, solid brewing practice as recommended by homebrewing authorities as well as commercial brewing practice and not following those practices, you have to admit there is no real choice at all. What opting to omit the practices amounts to is an arbitrary assignment of verbiage. Yes, you could call it 'lazy', and I have done.

You are correct that not all commercial practices are appropriate for home brewers. But to argue that in this instance is pure folly - we're talking about keeping equipment clean and proper yeast management, two of the most basic, most seminal aspects of brewing. There are no real options there.

I argue it is more likely that a newb is more likely to microbially contaminate the next batch by yeast washing than by pitching onto the cake. Is the increased chance of contamination through handling worth getting the new wort away from the old trub and krausen? That is a decision the homebrewer makes.

I don't necessarily disagree. I do argue, however, that with care any brewer at any level of skill can harvest yeast from a wide-mouthed container. Washing doesn't enter into the practice I've outlined, as I keep saying.

There is a diminishing returns issue when advancing from "beer I like to brew and consume on my table" to "the best it can possibly be".

If you're not going to make it the best it can possibly be, I don't understand the point of even starting. Where's the joy in mediocrity? "Look at this half-arsed beer I made! Ain't it so-so!" What's the point? It's like starting to build a boat and purposefully leaving leaks in.

Maybe that's the disconnect here - I don't understand the point of deliberately not pursuing excellence, for whatever reason.

Why are people using extracts when they could be doing AG?

I'm sorry, but this argument is obfuscation. The source of the fermentables does not necessarily have any bearing on the finished beer. I've had - and brewed - world-class extract beers that weren't merely as good as - they were better than AG beers. Pursuit of excellence transcends whether you or Mr Briess mashed your grain.

Why are they priming with sugar when they could be krausening?

Because one technique isn't quantifiably 'better' than the other. Again, bollocks.

Why aren't they counterpressure filling their bottles?
Why aren't they using conicals?
Why aren't they [using my pet technology]?

Now you're really grasping at straws, as well as avoiding my central points. None of those things will quantifiably brew better beer. Clean equipment and properly-conducted yeast management will demonstrably make better beer than dirty equipment and bad fermentation practices, every single time.

If one boggled every time a homebrewer deviates (productively or counterproductively) from commercial processes then one would be a full--time boggler.

You misunderstand me. One boggles when an otherwise seasoned brewer does something deliberately against good brewing practice.

Note I didn't write 'homebrewer' or 'probrewer'; I wrote 'brewer'. Good brewing practice, at the very basic levels about which I've been writing in this thread, transcends brewery size. Equipment needs to be clean whether your fermenters are 1 gallon or 150bbl. Yeast needs to be managed whether you're fermenting a Jalapeno Imperial IPA for your own table or a fairly neutral American Amber Ale for a fifteen-state distribution network.

All I'm saying is that a wise brewer does not needlessly throw over thousands of years of brewery experience. There are countless generations of brewers behind us, all mumuring 'keep your stuff clean' and 'have a care with that brown slimy stuff'. If you just chuck that stuff out the window, you're not being innovative, you're not choosing another path, you're deliberately doing something against all those years of experience. That's not 'cool'; in the best case, it's flippant, in the worst, it's bleedin' stupid.

I'm gratified we are keeping this debate civil. I have no real dog in this fight either, other than a keen desire to help people brew the best beers and be the best brewers they can be. I'm not married to The Davis Technique or anything.

Respectfully,

Bob

 

[ipscman]

You have been a great help. One question: I have cups of clean looking slurry in the fridge in steilized canning jars. Do I need to warm the slurry to pitching temperate (room temp for an English Bitter) or just pitch it cold (est. 35 degrees) as is?

???

Thanks for investing the time for so many of us newbies.

Mark

 

[Got Trub?]

You want your yeast to be as close to the wort temperature as possible to avoid thermal shock. I have heard within 5F is OK, I usually shoot for within about 2F. It is probably less of a problem going from cold yeast into warm wort then the other way but I would still avoid stressing them out.

GT

 

[Bob]

+1. +/- 5 degrees F is best. You can pitch cold yeast into relatively warm wort, but it will stress the little beasties.

Bob

 

[MBM30075]

Ok, newbie home brewer here. I've read this whole post, but I'm still confused as to the "proper" (at least according to NQ3X) technique to re-use yeast. I'm currently brewing a Dunkelweizen and plan to follow it up with... (drum roll, please) a Dunkelweizen. I really like this style and want to do exactly the same batch next time. I used a $7 Wyeast slap pack (#3068) to start this batch, and would love to get the same yeast at no cost for my next batch. So, assuming I don't simply pitch my next batch's wort on top of the yeast cake, how do I go about re-using the yeast? Also, I'm assuming that the best case scenario for re-using yeast is doing the same batch type back-to-back, right?

Thanks for the help!

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Ok, newbie home brewer here. I've read this whole post, but I'm still confused as to the "proper" (at least according to NQ3X) technique to re-use yeast. I'm currently brewing a Dunkelweizen and plan to follow it up with... (drum roll, please) a Dunkelweizen. I really like this style and want to do exactly the same batch next time. I used a $7 Wyeast slap pack (#3068) to start this batch, and would love to get the same yeast at no cost for my next batch. So, assuming I don't simply pitch my next batch's wort on top of the yeast cake, how do I go about re-using the yeast? Also, I'm assuming that the best case scenario for re-using yeast is doing the same batch type back-to-back, right?

Thanks for the help!

People are discussing various degrees of technology here, it seems Im a noob myself, so feel free to disregard what I say. My opinion based on what I have read in the past in this forum is that most people here would say Same beer, same hops, just dump your new wort on the previous yeast cake. It might not be absolutely perfec practice, but people here do it all the time with good results.

 

[PSmurf78]

Tried this last night after listening to jamil's american barley wine episode where he talked about reusing a cake to kick off a big barley wine.

I made a scaled down version of his, with an OG north of 1.1 (Didn't know you could dissolve 9 lbs of DME and a pound of corn sugar in 3 or so gallons of water)

This was intended to go on a Pacman yeast cake from an IPA that had been sitting for about 2 weeks in the primary. Once i transferred the IPA into a carboy, I then used a sterile fine SS mesh and poured the yeast slurry into a sterile container. This caught a lot of the larger gunk sitting at the bottom.

Once the barley wine was finished, I added about 2-2.5 cups of the slurry mix, which btw looked very uniform in color and texture, back to the new wort. I did clean out the primary bucket to get rid of all the previous gunk. This was about 9PM last night.

Initial activity started to show up about 10:30 PM, and by this morning, the thing was raging.

Even if it's not the best, it should be interesting experiment. I was okay with it going on the IPA cake because I used quite a bit of warrior and cascade (and a little amarillo) hops in the beer in an attempt to help combat the sweetness (and a pound of corn sugar to dry it out more).

 

[Bob]

Ok, newbie home brewer here. I've read this whole post, but I'm still confused as to the "proper" (at least according to NQ3X) technique to re-use yeast. I'm currently brewing a Dunkelweizen and plan to follow it up with... (drum roll, please) a Dunkelweizen. I really like this style and want to do exactly the same batch next time. I used a $7 Wyeast slap pack (#3068) to start this batch, and would love to get the same yeast at no cost for my next batch. So, assuming I don't simply pitch my next batch's wort on top of the yeast cake, how do I go about re-using the yeast? Also, I'm assuming that the best case scenario for re-using yeast is doing the same batch type back-to-back, right?

Thanks for the help!

Sure thing. Have a look at the short article I wrote in the HBT Wiki on yeast pitching. That'll give you the background on exactly why I say what I say, as well as help you calculate how much slurry to pitch.

Harvesting slurry is as easy as anything. All you need is:

- a few glass jam or Mason jars with lids
- a stainless-steel scoop (a tablespoon from your kitchen drawer is good enough)
- sanitizer

Clean and sanitize all equipment. Carefully scoop slurry from your fermenter into the jars. Fill 2/3 of the jar with slurry. Affix lid. Place in fridge. Use within a week or so.

That's it!

(Oh, and clean your fermenter. )

Cheers!

Bob

 

[MBM30075]

Let me try this one last time :

According to what you've written (and pointed me to), I should do the following to correctly re-use my yeast:

1. Rack my current batch of Dunkel to the bottling bucket
2. My Dunkel batches are supposed to start at about 1.052-1.056, so that's 13 or 14 degrees Plato.
3. If a 12 Plato brew requires 227 mL of slurry, then I need between 8.23 oz. (227 mL / 12 Degrees Plato * 13 Degrees Plato / 30 mL per ounce) and 8.87 oz. (227 mL / 12 Degrees Plato * 14 Degrees Plato / 30 mL per ounce) of slurry.
4. If I sanitize my glass measuring cup and stainless steel measuring spoon (is plastic OK, too?), then I can harvest to a little bit above the 1 cup line.
5. Assuming my wort for my next batch is pretty much ready (i.e., cooling in ice bath) when I'm racking the first batch to the bottling bucket, how long can I leave the harvested slurry out without having to worry about contamination? Should I sanitize a bucket filter and cover it with that? Do I have time to clean and sanitize my fermenting bucket in the meantime?

Does the harvested slurry get pitched on top of the wort just like I would pitch the Wyeast slap pack?

Am I missing anything else, or do I have the concept down pretty well?

 

[Bob]

Let me try this one last time :

According to what you've written (and pointed me to), I should do the following to correctly re-use my yeast:

1. Rack my current batch of Dunkel to the bottling bucket
2. My Dunkel batches are supposed to start at about 1.052-1.056, so that's 13 or 14 degrees Plato.
3. If a 12 Plato brew requires 227 mL of slurry, then I need between 8.23 oz. (227 mL / 12 Degrees Plato * 13 Degrees Plato / 30 mL per ounce) and 8.87 oz. (227 mL / 12 Degrees Plato * 14 Degrees Plato / 30 mL per ounce) of slurry.
4. If I sanitize my glass measuring cup and stainless steel measuring spoon (is plastic OK, too?), then I can harvest to a little bit above the 1 cup line.
5. Assuming my wort for my next batch is pretty much ready (i.e., cooling in ice bath) when I'm racking the first batch to the bottling bucket, how long can I leave the harvested slurry out without having to worry about contamination? Should I sanitize a bucket filter and cover it with that? Do I have time to clean and sanitize my fermenting bucket in the meantime?

Does the harvested slurry get pitched on top of the wort just like I would pitch the Wyeast slap pack?

Am I missing anything else, or do I have the concept down pretty well?

You have the concept nailed.

Harvest slightly more than you have calculated as 'necessary', just in case, and save it in a sealed, sanitary container in the fridge. You never know. In fact, you can harvest quite a lot and have a go at the process described in the Yeast Washing sticky. Even if it doesn't work out, you've got the yeast you want in your second batch of Dunkleweizen, and can have another go when that beer is finished, applying the lessons learnt this time round.

You shouldn't leave it uncovered. Cover the container until you're ready to pitch, and pitch just as though you were pitching a fresh smack-pack. Covering the glass measuring cup can be as simple as a piece of sanitized aluminum foil or plastic wrap. You're using it within minutes, so you don't need to seal it tightly; you just need to keep airborne nasties from falling in.

And yes, clean that nasty-looking fermenter. I know, technically it's clean, but fermenters fouled with gunk make me cringe.

Cheers!

Bob

 

[Baja_Brewer]

Well, this teaches me a little something about something. Excellent things to learn, Ive been meaning to start washing yeast, and now I know what to do if I have a slurry cake. Thanks for all the great info Bob!

 

[MBM30075]

If I wanted to keep some on hand, how many 8 1/2 ounce "batches" of yeast could I harvest? How long do they keep? I saw you say "use within a week." Is there any way to extend their life?

Thanks!

 

[Bob]

To extend life, consider following the excellent advice in the Yeast Washing sticky.

Harvested slurry loses approximately 25% viability every seven days. The 8 oz you harvest today is worth 6 oz a week from now, and 4 oz in a fortnight. You dig?

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Roo_Dr]

Newb here - this thread makes for interesting reading.

Moved the latest brew (a Hall & Woodhouse "Badger Best Bitter", England) to secondary today, and in a moment of weakness decided to cook up another brew (unhopped liquid extract + sprayed malt + crystal + flaked barley + hops, hoping for a Shepherd Neame "Spitfire", England, like product).

Well, the temptation to pitch straight onto the yeast cake left from the last brew was too great...

I learn by doing, if it goes wrong I don't do it again, and try a different way.

So 2 hours later - the primary is going crazy!! A more ferocious fermentation than any past brew, but a lot, lot, faster.

My question to the learned majority:

What happens next?!

 

[brown_dog_us]

Those sound like tasty brews! I'll be by in a few weeks for a pint.

Pitching on the cake doesn't change the process at all. Once it is done fermenting you bottle or keg a usual.

 

[Beerzoid]

I too fell victim to temptation this weekend. This is the first time I've pitched onto a yeast cake, I couldn't justify not using all that sweet Pacman yeast.


My only concern is the yeast cake was from a Brutal Bitter clone (6oz hops) and I pitched a Porter on it. So hopefully it doesn't turn out too hoppy.

 

[coyote]

pitch the slurry directly into the fresh wort. It's a lot easier than building up a starter!...

100% true! Overpitching is disaster in pale lager beers and English and Belgian ales, not so much in Bock or Imperial Stout...In the second, overpitching prevents the secretion of the esters so crucial to Belgian and English ales.

Bob

if you oxygenate the new wort, won't SOME of the yeasts propagate and give you the esters for the Belgian ales?

Thanks!