My first steps into of BIAB/AG. Please help me get started.

[bigken462]

This will be my second post here in BIAB. I think I'm ready to take the plunge to the life beyond extract. Unfortunately, time will not permit me to purchase a custom made bag in time to use this weekend. I'm hoping I can find a alternative paint strainer or other brew bag at the LHBS to get me by for now until I have a chance to order from our friend here on BIAB. This weekend will be my only off weekend for the next two weeks so I gotta use my free time as I have it.

I have a few questions that I hope you guys can help me iron out before I make the 65 mile trip to the brew shop in the morning or Saturday.

My goal is to make a Blue Moon clone - providing this can be fermented at ale temperatures. If this requires lagering, all bets are off and i'll need to go back to the drawing board. I have a 6 and 6.5 gallon carboy that will be freed up by Saturday to use.

1. What would be the minimum size bag to get me by using a 15 gallon BK?

On searching for a Blue Moon clone, I only came back with a few thousand hits. Can anyone point me to a tried and true, no fuss recipe that is good to use? If this recipe is too much for a new BIAB brewer, perhaps a Kolsch or some other low cost brew.

My trial version of Beersmith has expired and unfortunately I don't think I'll have the extra funds to get it this pay period. So I will have to depend on data obtained here.

2. Can anyone provide a link or post with the recipe for step by step instructions with volumes and temps etc.

Equipment wise, I have a choice to two burners - low and high output.
15 gallon BK that I plan to use (also have a 28qt and 120qt pots with baskets if these are needed for other tasks such as dunk sparging etc) otherwise I just plan on using the one 15 gallon.

As for boil conditions? I'll be inside a heated garage. Normal boil off rates I would suppose for a 60qt (16.75" x 15.75") kettle.

Once I make it to time to boil, Im comfortable with that process, just need any recipe-specific instructions with hop additions etc.

3. What items do I need on hand as a bail out plan? Type of DME and how much etc?

4. I could use some clarification on how to determine mash efficiency so I will know how much DME to add in case I come in low etc.

It's not critical that I get this by Saturday as I have plenty other chores to keep me busy, lol, but if I can get a good solid plan together by Friday night, I would like to give it a go.

All the best,

 

[RM-MN]

First off, I would not advise you to make a Blue Moon clone as your first BIAB brew. Blue Moon is a wheat beer and unless you have your own grain mill, getting wheat milled fine enough to be the best for BIAB is difficult and without it milled fine, your efficiency will suffer badly and you will likely be disillusioned about BIAB and quit.

Secondly, can I be so bold as to suggest you do a 2 1/2 gallon batch to start? You could pick up a paint strainer bag at a hardware store or somewhere like Home Depot that will fit your 28 qt pot very nicely or a bag at the LHBS. With the smaller batch size, handling the bag of grains becomes a one hand exercise. Later on you will know what to watch for and the bigger batch size will be simple.

I don't know what your boil off rate will be. I do my batches on the kitchen stove and have very fine temperature control so I only boil off half a gallon. You will likely boil off more. I get to start with about 3 1/2 gallons (in a 5 gallon pot) and then use a small sparge step to get my proper pre-boil amount. You could do that and use more water for sparging or you could start with more water in the bigger (28 qt) pot and do no-sparge BIAB.

The quality of the crush is the major determining factor in your efficiency. If you can get the grain milled very fine or double milled you won't need any DME. I wouldn't worry much about your efficiency on this batch anyway, even if your OG is low, you still will have beer. Choose almost any all grain recipe that doesn't contain wheat or rye that you think sounds good and go for it.

 

[newnick]

You can get a sheer curtain made of Viole fabric at Walmart prett cheap. It won't be the shape of a bag but you can lay it out flat and put the grains on it and bunch up the outide fabric and lower it into the pot and let the extra hang out around the pot. If you have a sewing machine you can make a bag like a pillow case to fit your pot.
I'd just pick up a kit at the brewstore and try it out for the first attemp. If at all possible have the grains double crushed or just crushed finely.
I wouldn't worry about adjusting the batch with DME.
This is a decent calculator to figure out how much water you'll need.
http://www.simplebiabcalculator.com/

 

[bigken462]

I never gave a thought to the type of grain which could cause problems. Hummm, I'm not stuck on Blue Moon at all, it was just one of those beers on my list to try. Seems like I used Bavarian wheat in my Kolsch so maybe I need to reconsider that too.

I haven't given doing a half batch size much thought. I might need to revisit the drawing board a lil. No doubt I want it to be successful, but I don't want to be wasteful because of not doing my homework before hand.

Bout to get off work and call this work week over. Guess I'll sleep on this a lil while till I see which recipe might work better.

Thanks much,

 

[soccerdad]

+1 for Newnick's idea. That is, if you wanna go 5G. Get the voile curtain, drape it over and into the kettle -- just keep it away from any flame, and then get it sown after this first brew. And double crush the grain!

The strainer bag in a smaller kettle and a half batch is perfectly legit .. I do a lot of small BIAB batches and the only pain is equal work for half beer.

 

[wilserbrewer]

creative idea, multiple paint strainers in a large kettle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVE8vr6pRXU

 

[bigken462]

Figured if I was going to do this right, there was no use in cutting corners. I sucked it up and pulled the lever to buy BeerSmith and the correct bags. I have 5 gallons of beer I bottled last week, 5 to rack today, and 5 more to rack next weekend so I guess that will keep me busy for a lil while. At least I have no excuse to say there is nothing to drink around here. lol

So I guess this gives me a little extra time to come up with a better recipe. lol

 

[bigken462]

Wilserbrewer, the first order for new customers comes with a free 15lb sack of grains and hops right? Lol

 

[wilserbrewer]

Wilserbrewer, the first order for new customers comes with a free 15lb sack of grains and hops right? Lol

Absolutely! Sorry, pick up only, no shipping. Just bring me half the beer back when it is finished and you got a deal!

 

[JR_Brewer]

Doesn't look like anyone has answered questions 3 and 4 yet, so let me take a crack at it.

I assume you're using a brewing app of some sort, you should enter your basic all grain recipe and assume an efficiency of about 75%. Note your original gravity (OG). Then, using the same app, drop your efficiency to 50% (kind of a worse case scenario), and then see how much DME you need to add to get your OG back up to where it needs to be. Make sense?

As far as determining efficiency of your mash, try this at brewer's friend. Be sure to correct for temperature... that is, wort at mash temperature will not give you an accurate gravity reading using a hydrometer. Brewer's friend has a correction for this.

Hopefully this helps. Cheers!

 

[bigken462]

Thanks for the replies guys.

As I enter recipes into Beersmith, is there any alterations to the recipe that is specific to BIAB, or are they all considered the same as any other AG recipe?

 

[bigken462]

This looks pretty easy. Not sure if I have all the correct data plugged into BeerSmith regarding my pot.

I guessed a boil off rate at 1.5hr
.5 gallon loss to fermentation/bottling
1 gallon loss to trub



Cream of Three Crops

Cream Ale (6 A)



Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 8.26 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
End of Boil Vol: 6.76 gal
Final Bottling Vol: 5.00 gal
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage


Date: 31 Jan 2014
Brewer: Ken Taylor
Asst Brewer:
Equipment: 15 gallon kettle
Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 85.1 %
Taste Rating: 30.0


5 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 61.1 %
2 lbs 8.0 oz Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 2 27.8 %
1 lbs Rice, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 3 11.1 %
0.50 oz Crystal [3.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 5.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 9.3 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 ml] Yeast 6 -


Est Original Gravity: 1.042 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.007 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.6 %
Bitterness: 15.2 IBUs
Est Color: 2.7 SRM

Measured Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.7 %
Calories: 151.6 kcal/12oz


Mash Profile

Mash Name: BIAB, Light Body
Sparge Water: 0.00 gal
Sparge Temperature: 168.1 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE


Total Grain Weight: 9 lbs
Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Tun Temperature: 72.0 F
Mash PH: 5.20



Saccharification Add 35.68 qt of water at 154.5 F 147.9 F 90 min
Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 7 min 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: If steeping, remove grains, and prepare to boil wort
Mash Notes: Brew in a bag method where the full boil volume is mashed within the boil vessel and then the grains are withdrawn at the end of the mash. No active sparging is required. This is a light body beer profile.



Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Bottle
Pressure/Weight: 3.93 oz
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 70.0 F
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage


Volumes of CO2: 2.3
Carbonation Used: Bottle with 3.93 oz Corn Sugar
Age for: 30.00 days
Storage Temperature: 65.0 F


Am I even close with this?

Ken

 

[ronjonacron]

Something else to add for brewing software. When i ger a recipe idea and im away from my home computer i use brewtoad. Its the new version of hopville. Its completely online.so you can pull it up anywhere.


Sent from my VS920 4G using Home Brew mobile app

 

[newnick]

Looks like a little to much water to me. I think 7 to 7.5 gallons to start would be enough.

 

[RM-MN]

Looks like a little to much water to me. I think 7 to 7.5 gallons to start would be enough.

I agree. Brewsmith want you to start with 8.26 gallons of water. The after boil amount is 6.76. The wort into the fermenter is 5.5 gallon. What happens to the 1.26 gallons? Do you just dump it out? That wort could be mostly beer if you fermented it.

I'll start with about 6.5 gallons in my 7.5 gallon pot which leaves just enough room for the grains. I'll probably lose half a gallon to the grain so I'll do a sparge step to replace that. That leaves me with 6.5 gallon preboil, 5.25 post boil and it all goes into the fermenter. I bottle about 5 gallons.

Beersmith also has you doing a mash out but you don't need that with BIAB, only with fly sparging which you won't be doing. When the mash period is over, pull the bag out and turn the heat on while the bag is draining.

The listed boil time is 90 minutes. I would only do 60. You don't have any pilsner malt and your pale malt is well modified so there will be minimal DMS to worry about. Heck, some people have had success with only a 30 minute boil.

When your wort is cooled and ready to pitch the yeast be sure to measure the volume of wort you collected and use your hydrometer to check your OG. These two measurements will let you determine your brewhouse efficiency so you can make adjustments to your recipes in the future to account for the differences in efficiency. Your recipe assumes a brewhouse efficiency of 72% which is a good starting place. With my way of milling the grain and a small sparge, I set the software for 80% efficiency and most of the time I still get a higher OG than planned which means my efficiency is over 80%.

 

[bigken462]

Thanks much,

I had plugged the 90 min boil time into Beersmith based from reading the first few post to this thread. If 60 is just as good, that's certainly better. It's also nice to see that I can take the mash out stage from the picture as that's one less thing to worry about.

I think the extra volume is from the 1 gallon I allocated it for trub loss and .5 gallon for fermentation loss. I did that w/o really thinking about the need to increase the grain bill to offset the difference. But even doing so, the profile looks good to me as for the , Color, IBU and ABV for my taste.

The last two extract batches I did where I used Whirlfloc, the beer was crystal clean, but by the time I got down to the trub, I still had a gallon or so to go before hitting my 5.5 gallon mark on the carboy. I know many people simply say just dump it in, but my heart sinks when I see that beautiful clear beer turn to crude oil. lol

I have these ingredients being shipped to the house today. The HBS was happy to double mill them when I requested. They seemed eager to be helpful. Too bad they are not 65 miles closer. lol

The only thing I have not done any reading on is water chemistry and how to adjust for PH problems - if any. I've always just used water straight out of the tap.

Also, BeerSmith has a place to enter the package date from the yeast, but the only date I can see on a spare pack of US-05 is the expiration date. Is this the date I'm supposed to enter?

All the best,

 

[RM-MN]

Thanks much,

I had plugged the 90 min boil time into Beersmith based from reading the first few post to this thread. If 60 is just as good, that's certainly better. It's also nice to see that I can take the mash out stage from the picture as that's one less thing to worry about.

I think the extra volume is from the 1 gallon I allocated it for trub loss and .5 gallon for fermentation loss. I did that w/o really thinking about the need to increase the grain bill to offset the difference. But even doing so, the profile looks good to me as for the , Color, IBU and ABV for my taste.

The last two extract batches I did where I used Whirlfloc, the beer was crystal clean, but by the time I got down to the trub, I still had a gallon or so to go before hitting my 5.5 gallon mark on the carboy. I know many people simply say just dump it in, but my heart sinks when I see that beautiful clear beer turn to crude oil. lol

I have these ingredients being shipped to the house today. The HBS was happy to double mill them when I requested. They seemed eager to be helpful. Too bad they are not 65 miles closer. lol

The only thing I have not done any reading on is water chemistry and how to adjust for PH problems - if any. I've always just used water straight out of the tap.

Also, BeerSmith has a place to enter the package date from the yeast, but the only date I can see on a spare pack of US-05 is the expiration date. Is this the date I'm supposed to enter?

All the best,

I'd still just dump it all in. It bothers me more to dump out that trub and think how much of it is wort that would make beer, knowing that by the time the ferment is over and the yeast has settled I'll have clear beer anyway, about a gallon more than you would.

For at least this batch, if I didn't have a pH meter or a full water report, I wouldn't worry much about the water chemistry. Without either of those it would be just a shot in the dark.

I haven't used BeerSmith so I don't know about the yeast date.

 

[wilserbrewer]

All good advice above! You surely are leaving no stones unturned researching this first AG batch. I think you wlll look back and chuckle once you see first hand how simple it can be.

With such a moderate gravity batch, I would be careful using too much water, and also tossing a gallon of trub / wort. You could end up with very light near beer.

Just my opinion, but I would prefer to see you only netting 4.5 gallons of decent beer, rather than 6.75 gallons post boil of watery beer. The 3 crop recipe is already pretty light and likely wouldn't fair well with an extra 1 1/2 gallons of water.

Topping up post boil with a little water as needed would be better than 20% excess!

Cheers !

Boil longer to reduce, or top up with water as needed till you find the comfort zone....

 

[bigken462]

Thanks much guys. I'll go in and edit those boil volumes. Looking forward to seeing the mailman leave a few goodies on the porch. I did not take that into account when I purchased my grains and stuck to the amounts listed in the initial recipe.

Since I had a gallon boil off with the turkey frier, I'm going to assume there will be at least that much, perhaps a bit more in the 15 gallon pot, so I'm going to leave the boil off at 1.5 gallons. Do ya'll think that's a good ballpark guess?

Wilserbrewer, you're correct, my weakness is that I like to over-engineer something and research ever possible variable. I can't stand going in flying by the seat of my pants. As age progress, I get forgetful and like to have a check-off list per say. You should see my scuba diving and backpacking trip checklist. lol

 

[wilserbrewer]

I like to over-engineer something and research ever possible variable. I can't stand going in flying by the seat of my pants. As age progress, I get forgetful and like to have a check-off list per say. lol

Boil off will vary widely with boil intensity and weather conditions, a low boil might boil off 1 gallon, while a vigorous boil will boil off 3 plus, sorry no help beyond that.

Yea, I'm an engineer as well, but have spent many years in the field seeing how things get done as opposed to how they were over designed and planned, and have learned to appreciate a simple approach.

Sometimes people get so wrapped in the numbers they lose sight of the obvious, grandpa didn't have beer smith...hahaha

All that said, finish with 6" in that kettle!
Or just shy of 6 gallons! Ok 5.7 gal. at flame out temp, or 5.5 gallons at room temp.
Cheers!

 

[bigken462]

Got the ingredients in today. Hope to lite the fire Wed or Thursday.

I have a quick question about correcting low efficiency and just making sure I have a plan to quickly go to if I fubar this up.

If by chance my gravity reading following the mashing is lower than the target given by BrewSmith for the pre-boil volume noted, would this be the time to correct it using DME?

Also, when you are using DME to correct a gravity problem, do you simply just add it in and stir good, or boil it in some water? It seems to me that the heat from the previous steeping would be enough to dissolve the DME. I'm guessing if for some reason you had to add this after the boil, you would need to first boil it in some water prior to adding it to the wort?

I did a test 60 minute boil today to re oxidize my pot after scrubbing the aluminum down. Keeping a decent size 2-3" boil, I lost just a tad over 2 gallons. I doubt it would be anywhere near that much during a actual boil with wort, but at least I have a worst case ball park figure. I would imagine it would be closer to 1.5 gal using reduced heat during a actual boil.

I was hoping to get to test how well this pot holds heat, but it was well past time to hit the sack before work. Ugggg It should be illegal for a off weekend to go by so fast.

Anyway, how do you guys correct your OG when using DME when boiling off volume is not a option.

*Edit*

Ok, after doing some reading, I think I know how to do this. I've cut, copied and pasted a few things to print out and keep in my notes. If you guys can, will you read over this to see if I got this correct.

To correct low gravity from poor efficiency when boil off is not an option.

Example:

Target gravity is 1.086

Actual Gravity is 1.065

Gravity loss is 1.021 or about 20 points.

DME has 45 gravity units “Gu/LB” of DME

To figure out how much DME you need to use, use this equation:

1.086 OG x 5 gallon recipe = 430 GU (86 points X 5 gallons = 430GU)
1.020 loss x 5 = 100 GU lost (20 points X 5 gallons =100GU)
100 GU / (45 GU/lb DME) = 2.22 lbs DME (100/45 = 2.22 lbs of DME)

However, if you mix this to water, you will still be diluting your concentration. You must also mix this amount to the same specific gravity of your wort. In the example above, the 2.2 lbs of DME must be mixed in a 1.086 mixture, or you can simply add extra DME to account for the water.

Use the below equation by using the determined amount of DME that you found from above. (2.2lbs)

1.086 => 86 gravity points
86GP / 45 ppg = 1.9111 lbs/gallon
1.911 x 0.25 gallons = 0.478 lbs in one quart of water.
Or just call it half a pound.

Use 2.2+0.5 = 2.7 lbs of DME in 1 quart of water. If you can't dissolve everything add another quart of water and another half pound of DME.

Sure as I've done this, watch there be a calculator built in BS somewhere to do this. lol

 

[wilserbrewer]

Yes, above reasoning is sound, no need to dissolve DME in water, you can add directly to the wort in the kettle.

You could also take a preboil sample, CHILL and take a gravity reading, then boil to a target volume to yield the correct FG and time the late addition hops to the end of the boil.

 

[bigken462]

I appreciate the feedback. Extracts have been so foolproof, they kind of spoil ya going into AG.

Hope to see the mailman today with a oversized skeeter net in a box. lol

 

[bigken462]

The significance of this picture is not so much what's in it, but what's not.

Garage is prepped, all I gotta do is fill the kettle and light the fire.

I appreciate ya'lls help getting me here.

 

[RM-MN]

I appreciate the feedback. Extracts have been so foolproof, they kind of spoil ya going into AG.

Hope to see the mailman today with a oversized skeeter net in a box. lol

After you've done a few AG BIAB you'll discover that they aren't all that much more difficult to do than extract but a bit less expensive and will open more options.

 

[bigken462]

I’m still learning how to plug this stuff into Brewsmith, but it looks like I did well on my efficiency.

I used the recipe I posted above.

Measured out 8.30 gallons of water

90 minute mash at 152-154 degrees.

Initially, I used 11.25 quarts of water per Brewsmith. I guess the small diameter of the paint strainer bag was limiting the area that the grains could mash in, so I elected to add in one additional gallon.

This seemed to make it nice and soupy. I mashed for 90 minutes. In the mean time, I filled up a pot with water and sit it on my heater to be heating up. It was a perfect 154 degrees when it got time to sparge with.

I poured the wort into the brew kettle then filled the mash tun up with the remainder of water – minus 1 gallon and did a dunk sparge for 10-15 minutes. I then placed the grains in a basket and used the last gallon of water to sparge with. I pressed and squeezed the grains to get the last bit of useable wort out of.

Pre-boil gravity was 1.042 (Beersmith estimated that it should have been 1.032)

I boiled for 60 minutes per schedule, then chilled to 60*

Initially I used a paint strainer bag to filter the trub with, but when I seen how much was in there I said to heck with it and dumped it all in. I hit the final boil volume on the money at 5.5 gallons, and since I seen my gravity would allow some top off I made the split decision to top off to 6 gallons. I’m sure this will make a mess in the airlock bucket and blow off tube.

I was out of Oxygen in my tanks, so I improvised by using some from my decompression scuba tank. The first stage reg is much to fast to use by itself, so I grabbed my air regulator that I use with my airbrush and oxygenated for a few minutes. Worked fine in a pinch.

Looking back, I could have tossed the trub, and topped off with fresh water and probably hit the 1.042 target gravity, but I figured why intentionally dilute good beer. lol

Gravity prior to pitching yeast was 1.050 (Beersmith estimated it should have been 1.042)

All is all a good day. I twisted my back a lil yesterday and so it was sore and stiff as hell today. Toward the end, I was getting a lil sloppy and need to correct my process. My hands were numb from rinsing things off after washing, back was hurting and beginning to get pressed with time on clean up before having to get my nephew from school. But still, I got 6 gallons of beer that I hope to see bubbling pretty soon and 5 that I need to bottle today, but that’s not happening. lol

Hope ya'll have a good weekend coming up.

 

[mr_rogers]

I think it's great how precise you are with your beer making process. It reminds me a lot of my own first time doing BIAB. I'm not sure if you had a similar experience, but I found that a lot of the brewing process, as far as numbers are concerned has to do with your specific equipment/ and brewing conditions. I asked questions about nearly every tricky predicament I could fathom myself in. But In the end I found that brewers learn so much about their equipment and what process is best for them through simply brewing. Take lots of notes and try to refine your process with each new batch. But most of all, try to remember that even the batches that go horribly wrong will still (probably) be beer, and you usually learn more on the batches that you botch a little bit!

Keep up the good brewing man!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[bigken462]

Appreciate it sir. On the way to pick up my lil nephew from school this afternoon, I was thinking to myself about needing to bottle up a batch of Mirror Pond that is finished, when it suddenly occurred to me that the genius that I am, managed to choose his only bottling bucket to ferment today's batch in when I had two empty glass carboys that I could have used.

For the past two-three batches I had kept thinking to myself that I would almost rather not deal with cleaning and carrying a glass jug around when I had a bucket to use with a handle. lol

So much for proper preplanning. Facepalm moment! Lol.

 

[newnick]

Congrats on your first BIAB all grain batch, sounds like it worked out pretty well. I work with alot of engineers and a few of them make beer. I'd really like to go watch them on brewday just for kicks.

 

[bigken462]

Would like to give a shout out to Wilserbrewer. Received my order today of his BIAB bags. They appear well made and I look forward to using them soon.

My single and only complaint is that the big bag resembles a size 10X pair of granny panties - which was exactly what my crew members thought I was holding up in my hand when I opened the package tonight at work.

Perhaps the next one I order will be embroidered with the words "Hot Stuff Inside" lol

 

[wilserbrewer]

I have the day glow pink para cord I could have used for the draw string?

 

[bigken462]

Hey guys, for those that use a hop spider, do ya'll take the bag off when not in use for cleaning, or just spray it off good with the water hose and leave it be? I picked up the clamp with all the other plumbing stuff at Lowes. Not sure if it's rust resistant or not.

 

[RM-MN]

I believe that the clamp you have is stainless steel but the adjusting screw may not be and might rust. Some do, some don't.

I'd empty and rinse the bag. It's going to go into the boiling wort for the next batch so it shouldn't need to be exceptionally clean.