My Electric Brewery

[TungstenBeer]

Thanks! I don't know why I never thought of that. Anyway I'd be getting the 120vac coil version, but thanks again!

 

[HumulusHead]

So I'm at the stage where I have almost everything I need to complete my control panel sans wiring. Which I will pick up once I get my control panel put together.

I picked up a couple relays to take place of my bulky contactors to make things fit better in my box.

Now I'm just debating my initial design. Ugh.

As of right now I have 1 PID that will control my HLT so that my strike and sparge water will be at exact temps. That was my main goal of this whole thing. That PID will also control the BK via a selector switch.

Question is, should I just add one maybe two more PIDs while I have the box under construction anyways? I have the money available so that's not an issue. Just honestly not sure I could benefit too much from the added PIDs. I know I'll want a 2nd one in the future to control rims/herms. Looking more towards a rims system at this point. So I'll most likely incorporate for sure a 2nd PID into my system.

But a 3rd PID? Is it necessary? My initial PID can control HLT and then BK. This could be split into 2 PIDs but I figure why not just kill 2 birds with 1 stone?? 2nd PID can be used for controlling Rims option in future.

If you remember, I'm not going for full auto here. Just want more precision and ease when reaching/keeping temps. That's why I'm still even debating on adding rims/herms

Anybody have an opinion on this? What would you guys do?

 

[augiedoggy]

If you have a pid for HLT control now you would use that same pid for herms control since its the temp of the hlt that controls herms output temps ultimately.

I would say if you intend on going with a rims then yes I would add a second pid... the boil kettle can easily be controlled with an ssvr and a potentiometer or a pid with manual mode... There are some advantages of the pid here like setting a temp just below boiling and setting the alarm to prevent an unnoticed boilover but depending on whether your old school and are frustrated by pushing a few buttons vs turning a knob the advantages may not outweigh your preference here. (This is a highly debated and defended topic by both sides)

 

[HumulusHead]

If you have a pid for HLT control now you would use that same pid for herms control since its the temp of the hlt that controls herms output temps ultimately.

Well maybe I would want to go herms then if I am thinking about this correctly.

Is this how herms works?

Coil in HLT. Mash water pumped through coil. HLT PID is set to mash temp (say you are mashing at 150, so set HLT PID to 150). Mash stays at 150 degrees?

If that is how it works, a guy really would only need one PID and could control all three processes?!?! 2 would be more convenient i suppose tho

 

[HumulusHead]

Well maybe I would want to go herms then if I am thinking about this correctly.

Is this how herms works?

Coil in HLT. Mash water pumped through coil. HLT PID is set to mash temp (say you are mashing at 150, so set HLT PID to 150). Mash stays at 150 degrees?

If that is how it works, a guy really would only need one PID and could control all three processes?!?! 2 would be more convenient i suppose tho

So if this is the case, you really wouldnt be monitoring the mash temp via a PID?? at least not the PID that is controlling the HLT. Sound correct?

 

[augiedoggy]

double post...

 

[augiedoggy]

Well maybe I would want to go herms then if I am thinking about this correctly.

Is this how herms works?

Coil in HLT. Mash water pumped through coil. HLT PID is set to mash temp (say you are mashing at 150, so set HLT PID to 150). Mash stays at 150 degrees?

If that is how it works, a guy really would only need one PID and could control all three processes?!?! 2 would be more convenient i suppose tho

Yes thats exactly how it works... I started with two that actually controlled elements and one that was just being used to monitor temps of my mashtun output for reference.
keep in mind you also have to come up with a way to recirculat the water around in your HLT or you develop hot spots and uneven water temps in the hlt...

 

[iijakii]

Yup, once you get your temperature delta figured out there's really no need for a PID in the MLT. Might have to set HLT to 152 to get 150 in the mash for instance, but once you have that heat-loss figured out it's pretty static.

I'd go ahead and do a second just incase you run a RIMS like you mentioned. It's also nice to have one in the BK I find for heating water, knowing how close to boil you are, etc. Not necessary, but it's convenient. I know how slippery a slope all of this is though. One minute you have a single PID setup with home depot toggle switches and the next you're running three PIDs, illuminated push buttons and everything is ****in' stainless bling.

...not that it's happened to me multiple times or anything...

 

[HumulusHead]

Yup, once you get your temperature delta figured out there's really no need for a PID in the MLT. Might have to set HLT to 152 to get 150 in the mash for instance, but once you have that heat-loss figured out it's pretty static.

I'd go ahead and do a second just incase you run a RIMS like you mentioned. It's also nice to have one in the BK I find for heating water, knowing how close to boil you are, etc. Not necessary, but it's convenient. I know how slippery a slope all of this is though. One minute you have a single PID setup with home depot toggle switches and the next you're running three PIDs, illuminated push buttons and everything is ****in' stainless bling.

...not that it's happened to me multiple times or anything...

I hear ya there. My initial idea of this was to make it super cheap and simple. The more I look into all the options the more I want. I gotta keep pulling myself back to keep inline with my initial plan.

The more I think about it the more the herms option interests me, but I flip back and forth between herms and rims daily it feels like. But those options will be decided in the future any ways.

I think I'm gonna settle on one PID for the HLT and one PID for the BK. The PID on the BK will be my splurge item since I could really control it just fine from the HLT PID. Who knows. Maybe I'll do just that and use the 2nd PID for just monitoring.

I'm definitely not going to do a third. Don't even have the room on my CP to do a third anyways.

Slippery slope sure is right man

 

[HumulusHead]

Yes thats exactly how it works... I started with two that actually controlled elements and one that was just being used to monitor temps of my mashtun output for reference.

keep in mind you also have to come up with a way to recirculat the water around in your HLT or you develop hot spots and uneven water temps in the hlt...

Would you even recommend recirculating in the HLT if not doing a herms setup right away?

If I do need to do some sort of recirc I'm going to be using them small dc pumps you use

 

[iijakii]

There's no point in recirculating the HLT unless youre using it to heat the mash in some manner. Just stir it every once in awhile while heating. Otherwhise your probe might read 150F but closer to the element its 170. Pump isnt needed for that.

 

[schematix]

I recirculate my HLT with my RIMS set up. I've seen 20 degree stratifications before from top to bottom when I had the same kettle on propane. Now there is none.

 

[cantrell00]

I recirculate my HLT with my RIMS set up. I've seen 20 degree stratifications before from top to bottom when I had the same kettle on propane. Now there is none.

Me too. Except mine is electric.

 

[schematix]

Me too. Except mine is electric.

I run electric now. Temp probe is in the recirc loop. Works fantastic.

 

[HumulusHead]

Its been a while since I've updated this, but that is due to lack of work being done on my setup I got some money so I've been acquiring a few parts here and there that I've needed, and will be updating my price cost post.

Hopefully this weekend i can get the wiring to the garage done, since I have finally settled on a way I want to do that.

I will be running 30A220V to my garage from the main breaker panel. 30A breaker in main panel. HHNG outlet in garage. Then I will be wiring my spa panel in-line to save on some costs. Will be buying a 35' generator extension cord I found on ebay. Cheapest thing i could find. Its about 2 bucks a foot and comes with the correct plugs on each end. I will splice in the spa panel about 5 feet from the outlet, and will hang that on the wall near the outlet. I will then have about 30 feet of cable going to my control panel. I decided i wanted to go this long because I am going to be brewing next to the garage door so that I don't need to worry about moisture problems.

There will be a flanged outlet on my CP. The power cord will have nema locking connectors on both ends, for future owners if that ever happens. From the CP out, i will be using the aviation connectors that augie pointed me too. nice and cheap!! and waterproof!!

after I run the wiring, I hope to start wiring up my CP, since I believe i have everything i need, except for the wire. I'm going to pick that up at HD this weekend if I get around to wiring this bad boy up.

I've pretty much landed on my final decision on how i will be controlling the whole system. I have been waffling since I started this thread, but I think i've decided now.

My control panel will have 2 mypin PIDs with 25A SSRs and heatsinks. One PID will control HLT and one PID will control the BK. I have decided that I will go HERMS in the future so I have set my system up in prep for that. I will eventually install a coil in the HLT and I will be recircing the HLT somehow (havent decided this yet) so that the HLT temp will essentially be the Mash temp when the mash is circulating.

I bought 2 small DC computer fans for air circ in my CP. One will blow in and one will suck out. Directly in line with each other accross the heatsinks in the CP. I bought a small DC transformer that will power these.

I will be using 30A 3 pin aviation connectors found on ebay for my element power out of the CP. I am basing my element power to be exactly like kals, but i will incorporate waterproof 30A 3 pin aviation connectors at the outlet box at the kettles. This way all cords will be detachable from my kettles AND from my CP.

I just decided that I will be adding pumps pretty much right away, but will be going with the cheap tan pumps from ebay. I will also outfit the whole setup with QDs and tubing. I am going to use 2 of these pumps, and I will design it so i can detach and attach the hoses to perform my various transfer needs.

I ended up deciding to go with pumps instead of my initial plans of doing a three tier system based largely on really wanting to incorporate CIP. I'm really excited for this feature!!!

 

[HumulusHead]

if your talking about the wiring to your switches,indicators and pids you can get it at radioshack in a three color kit (18awg is more than enough for the 1/2amp load ) Pump wiring should be 14 awg. You can get multiple thicknesses at home depot... including the 12 or 10 awg for the element wiring. I bought 10awg there myself for my latest panel since it will generate less heat and be less likely to "loosen at the connection points" as people have told me has happened to thiers... technically if the insulation is of the correct type you can use 12 awg and some say even 14awg (I wouldnt) for the 18-23 amp element load.

Then of course you also have the "wire kit" from harbor freight which is about $40 and has all the wire you should need if you dont care about color... There is no certifications on the wire though so many here believe its dangerous since the insulation type and value is unknown... Then again there isnt much that everyone here does agree on so... I used a lot of this wire in my main brew panel built over a year ago and had it apart to add something last week... The wiring all looks as good as the day it was installed despite being told it would turn white and have the insulation fall of in short order.

I did source my heavy wire from the home depot for my latest build though because I plan on selling it.

I have a question for you, or really anybody that happens to read this thread ha.

I want to know if I am in the right on my thinking here.

I bought a DC transformer. The line in side says something like 110v 5 amps. Not positive on that, but its close enough for my question. Am i right thinking that I can hook that directly to one leg of my 220v 30amp and to the negative line? I guess i read somewhere that something will only draw as much as it was rated for? That sounds great, but I want to know for sure before I go messing with large power like this.

I assume that if this is fine, I can add say a 5 amp fuse in there just to be safe, but I want to make sure that generally an object will only draw as much as it is designed for.

I have this same question for all of my smaller things in the panel that are not rated for the full 30 amps, like switches and lights.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

I have a question for you, or really anybody that happens to read this thread ha.

I want to know if I am in the right on my thinking here.

I bought a DC transformer. The line in side says something like 110v 5 amps. Not positive on that, but its close enough for my question. Am i right thinking that I can hook that directly to one leg of my 220v 30amp and to the negative line? I guess i read somewhere that something will only draw as much as it was rated for? That sounds great, but I want to know for sure before I go messing with large power like this.

I assume that if this is fine, I can add say a 5 amp fuse in there just to be safe, but I want to make sure that generally an object will only draw as much as it is designed for.

I have this same question for all of my smaller things in the panel that are not rated for the full 30 amps, like switches and lights.

As long as you mean the neutral when you say "negative line" then, yes. the only place this can cause a problem is an imbalance that can trip the GFCI but the variables are so many, the only way to know is to try.

 

[HumulusHead]

As long as you mean the neutral when you say "negative line" then, yes. the only place this can cause a problem is an imbalance that can trip the GFCI but the variables are so many, the only way to know is to try.

Yes that's what I mean ha. See! I should be careful about this stuff!

But finding out by trying is not what I hope happens ha....

Another question for you. I'm running an estop like pj usually does. It's an estop button with some resistors that supposedly leaks "a little" current to trip the breaker. Does this mean it should trip my spa panel? Or my main breaker? Leaking a little current to trip a breaker sounds like it may be dangerous???

Is there another way to go about this? Or is it perfectly normal to do it this way?

 

[HumulusHead]

@onkel_udo @augiedoggy @iijakii I am going to need to brew a batch for you guys, amongst others, after this project is complete. I owe you guys many thanks

 

[HumulusHead]

@onkel_udo @augiedoggy @iijakii I am going to need to brew a batch for you guys, amongst others, after this project is complete. I owe you guys many thanks

I thought adding the @ symbol would tag people, but it doesn't seem to be working from my phone

 

[augiedoggy]

@onkel_udo @augiedoggy @iijakii I am going to need to brew a batch for you guys, amongst others, after this project is complete. I owe you guys many thanks

I appreciate the props, Just trying to pay it forward and share what I have learned to help others who were I was a couple years ago..

Testing your emergency stop should be perfectly safe. Its my understanding the resistors make it even safer although perhaps I have that wrong?
I wired my e stop to my main power so it just works to kill my main power relay instead of tripping my gfci since theres no real mechanics to stop the emergency stop is more of an "OH crap" kill switch than anything for these setups... If someone was being electrocuted it would almost always be all over before the estop could help unfortunately

 

[HumulusHead]

I appreciate the props, Just trying to pay it forward and share what I have learned to help others who were I was a couple years ago..

Testing your emergency stop should be perfectly safe. Its my understanding the resistors make it even safer although perhaps I have that wrong?
I wired my e stop to my main power so it just works to kill my main power relay instead of tripping my gfci since theres no real mechanics to stop the emergency stop is more of an "OH crap" kill switch than anything for these setups... If someone was being electrocuted it would almost always be all over before the estop could help unfortunately

I would prefer to just tie my estop in to the main power, but someone told me (Kal maybe?) that you need a switch capable of doing that??? The switch I have, and most I found, are rated for far less than the 30a it could possibly see

 

[HumulusHead]

I mean I guess I am tying it into the main power I just have the resistors inline with the switch.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Yes that's what I mean ha. See! I should be careful about this stuff!

But finding out by trying is not what I hope happens ha....

The problem is that the transformer is running off just one leg...what is it being used for and what else if being used simultaneously when it is being used. This is where the imbalance that can trip the GFCI can come from. It is rare, but If your GFCI is particularly sensitive (usually means they are not that great) it could trip every time to turn on the item while your element is one too.

 

[HumulusHead]

The problem is that the transformer is running off just one leg...what is it being used for and what else if being used simultaneously when it is being used. This is where the imbalance that can trip the GFCI can come from. It is rare, but If your GFCI is particularly sensitive (usually means they are not that great) it could trip every time to turn on the item while your element is one too.

Eesh I hope that's not my case! That sounds like a pain in the ass!

 

[HumulusHead]

Does anyone install a coil in their BK for chilling just like one would in a HLT? Is there any reasons why someone wouldn't do this?

 

[augiedoggy]

I would prefer to just tie my estop in to the main power, but someone told me (Kal maybe?) that you need a switch capable of doing that??? The switch I have, and most I found, are rated for far less than the 30a it could possibly see

I use a switch that controls the power to my pid as well as my 24v powersupply which powers all my coils for my relays so in essence once I kill the 1 amp circuit that powers everything the rest shuts off with it.

 

[HumulusHead]

I use a switch that controls the power to my pid as well as my 24v powersupply which powers all my coils for my relays so in essence once I kill the 1 amp circuit that powers everything the rest shuts off with it.

I really like that idea!

Though I don't have 24v contactors. I have 220v ones. So I would need a 220v switch to do this.

Is this the reason you went with 24v contactors?

 

[HumulusHead]

So basically the way I have the estop setup right now is when you throw the estop, it trips the gfci. This would be different then cutting the power right? I want a way to cut all the power, not so much throw the gfci.

Like was mentioned earlier, by the time something truly electrocuting would happen, I wouldn't be able to throw the damn thing anyways. I want to have a quick access to kill the power, but also as like a fail safe. Like once I pull the estop out, I know the system is live.

 

[HumulusHead]

I have a switch incorporated into my system that turns on the PID. If I just replace that switch with my estop would I get what I'm looking for?

This action would happen:
Pull estop. Turns on PID. Power is then able to be sent from PID to elements. So if PID is off, the elements can't be on. Is that right?

I'll also have a switch after the PID that will either allow power or not to an element.