My Electric Brewery

[HumulusHead]

I think I will need for sure 2 PIDs. Maybe three. not true anymore. 1 PID

One for the boiler. Want this one to have manual mode so I can dial in a good boil. Not to hold it at a certain temp like I previously imagined.

One for HLT. This one I just want a PID that will raise to and hold at a certain temp.

Maybe one for the mash tun? This would allow me to monitor temp and allow for future use. Future use would be a rims application. I'd be set up to do either rims or herms this way. This PID I would want to raise to and hold at a certain temp is all.

Would using 3 PIDs be overkill? Is there a better/more economical way to go about doing what I mean to do?

 

[LandoLincoln]

Why do you heat your strike water in your BK? Larger element than your HLT?

I heat my strike water in my BK for a number of reasons.

1) My strike water usually is a mixture of distilled water and tap water, since my water is pretty crappy. I don't use that same mixture for my sparge water because distilled water is kinda pricey and I don't need distilled water for the sparging process. So it's good to have the strike water and sparge water separated.
2) I add a number of chemical additions to the strike water that I don't add to the sparge water, so this helps to keep them separate as well.
3) My strike water needs to be about 20° above my target mash temperature, because by the time I'm done transferring the water to the MLT and stirring in the grains, it loses about 20°. My HLT temperature needs to be about 3° above my target mash because experience tells me that this is where it needs to be set in order to keep my mash temperature where I need it to be when I'm recirculating the mash through the HERMS coil inside the HLT. Since those temps are quite different, it's good to have them heating in different vessels.

There is a workaround to this which only uses the HLT heating element. You COULD do the following:
1) Put your strike water in your MLT and begin to recirculate it through the HERMS coil.
2) Put your sparge water in your HLT and begin to heat it up to the proper mash temps (or a few degrees above it) and recirculate that water back into the top of the HLT to prevent temp striation.
3) Once your strike water gets up to temp, then add your grains and stir them. You'll probably lose 5-10°, but the HERMS coil should bring it back up to the proper target temp in 5-10 minutes.

Which way is better? Eh. I cannot say. I think my way takes less time, but I'm not positive about that. I get around 94% mash efficiency with my way and I'm very pleased with that number.

 

[HumulusHead]

So I now realize that I need to put a 30 amp breaker in the main electrical box since everything else is going to be based off of 30 amp.

2 questions now arise.

Can I still use the 50amp spa panel from HD? Or do I need to find a 30 amp one. It appears that there is not a 30 amp spa panel?

Also, when I run a search on HD website for 30 amp breaker, it shows 2 different options. A single pole and a 2 pole breaker. Can I use the single pole breaker?

 

[augiedoggy]

So I now realize that I need to put a 30 amp breaker in the main electrical box since everything else is going to be based off of 30 amp.

2 questions now arise.

Can I still use the 50amp spa panel from HD? Or do I need to find a 30 amp one. It appears that there is not a 30 amp spa panel?

Also, when I run a search on HD website for 30 amp breaker, it shows 2 different options. A single pole and a 2 pole breaker. Can I use the single pole breaker?

your only using the spa panel for its gfci protection so as long as its 30a or larger it will work fine for this function... they only make them in 50 and 60a versions btw... just be sure to use a 30a main breaker if you have 10g wiring.

 

[HumulusHead]

I updated my original post with some changes that I will be implementing.

I have settled on the design of my control panel. Pretty much identical to one PJ designed

I also decided that I will be doing 30 amp wiring. I decided I will not need that capabilities of 50 amp in the near future. If I ever need that, I will have a different house by then anyways.

Going to go with 2 camco 5500w elements, maybe overkill, but they are the same cost as the 4500w elements so why not.


I finally ordered some parts! Thats my good news of the day!

I'm not jumping in too deep yet, so I haven't ordered anything to start the actual electric part yet though.

I ordered a 3 piece ball valve, sight glass, and pickup tube. At least now I should be able to convert a keg to a keggle and be able to brew a few batches in it on propane for now. I have just been so sick of doing 6.5 gallon boils in a 7.5 gallon pot! Sooo many boilovers that I can't wait to keep in my past!

I'm going to install the 30 amp service in about a month. My dad will be coming to visit and will help me then.

Before then I hope to start on the control panel. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how all the different parts within the control panel work, pretty much why I'm taking it so slow.

 

[HumulusHead]

Question for all you guys.

I am going to start putting some holes in my Keggle later this week, and I would prefer to not screw that up.

i will be going all weldless.

I bought a $60 step bit from HD. What a rip! But I wanted a good quality one. it is still in packaging tho in case i should return it and get a different tool.

Here are my options on how to put holes in the keg.

Step bit
Harbor freight punches
Greenlee punches.

i know that greenlee are the best, but I cant get over how expensive they are. And i will need different sizes to install things like ball valves, sight gauge, temp probe, and elements. Thats potentially 4 different size holes!

Would i be ok with a step bit? I'd be fine trying the HF punches, i can get a whole set for like $25. Reviews make it sound like they would be fine for the few holes i need. Would rather not drop the money on 4 different greenlee punches.

What does everyone think?

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Step bits work fine, it has been my experience that the better quality bits dull just as fast as the cheaper ones. I would go for the cheaper bit just from experience and don't forget the cutting oil. Just personal preference on my part, but I would seriously consider Tri-Clover mounted elements - much easier to remove and clean. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Hex23]

Question for all you guys.

I am going to start putting some holes in my Keggle later this week, and I would prefer to not screw that up.

i will be going all weldless.

I bought a $60 step bit from HD. What a rip! But I wanted a good quality one. it is still in packaging tho in case i should return it and get a different tool.

Here are my options on how to put holes in the keg.

Step bit
Harbor freight punches
Greenlee punches.

i know that greenlee are the best, but I cant get over how expensive they are. And i will need different sizes to install things like ball valves, sight gauge, temp probe, and elements. Thats potentially 4 different size holes!

Would i be ok with a step bit? I'd be fine trying the HF punches, i can get a whole set for like $25. Reviews make it sound like they would be fine for the few holes i need. Would rather not drop the money on 4 different greenlee punches.

What does everyone think?

The HF punches aren't fantastic. I never did use them for my SS kettles, just for the control panel steel. After about 4-5 holes (even with liberal amounts of cutting oil), they started wearing to the point that they were creating sharp edges on the hole. Maybe that was due to the softness and thickness of the panel metal and they might have done better on my kettles? For my kettles I tried to plan ahead with my hardware so that I limited the number of hole sizes. Since I installed a BoilCoil and some 1/2 NPT stuff, I only needed 5/8 and 13/16. I searched the lowest cost Greenlee punches I could find. Still, I agree they were a little pricey. But the hole they left was super clean. I've never used a step bit, but I did not want to have to deal with burrs.

 

[schematix]

Step bits work fine, it has been my experience that the better quality bits dull just as fast as the cheaper ones. I would go for the cheaper bit just from experience and don't forget the cutting oil. Just personal preference on my part, but I would seriously consider Tri-Clover mounted elements - much easier to remove and clean. Just my 2 cents.

I respectfully, but completely disagree with this. I used to buy a new $8-10 HF step bit each time I would need to cut a hole in metal because they didn't last but for one job. They will cut maybe 10 holes before they go to the garbage, and those last few cuts are a struggle.

When i drilled my Blichmanns (13 new holes) I bought the $50 Irwin cobalt step bit. It did all 13 holes and the last one was as easy and smooth as the first. I just used it the other day and it was still like brand new.

The HF bit i used to cut a single 1 1/4" hole in my control panel doesn't have any titanium left on the 1" and 1 1/4" steps. Wasn't a nice cut either.

No matter what though, you absolutely have to use cutting oil. Go buy the $5 bottle from lowes or home depot. I have even been known to put a drop of vegetable oil on something in a pinch. Oil makes a world of difference.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Yes, step bits are fine for this application. But you were probably wise to purchase a better quality one than a cheap HF one.

 

[HumulusHead]

Ok sweet! I think I'll just carefully work with the step bit I have. I will need to pick up some cutting oil though, I do not have any.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes, step bits are fine for this application. But you were probably wise to purchase a better quality one than a cheap HF one.

I Used harbor frieght bits which cut through the stainless like a knife through hot butter with wd40 (not proper cutting oil I know) once I realized that you need to run the drill at a very slow speed... I destroyed another bit in about 5 seconds by drilling too fast.... Then drilled 7 holes with another bit with no noticeable wear through the gold colored nitride plating... If you don't have a variable speed drill don't waste your time or money trying step bits...

 

[huntb]

I think I will need for sure 2 PIDs. Maybe three.

One for the boiler. Want this one to have manual mode so I can dial in a good boil. Not to hold it at a certain temp like I previously imagined.

One for HLT. This one I just want a PID that will raise to and hold at a certain temp.

Maybe one for the mash tun? This would allow me to monitor temp and allow for future use. Future use would be a rims application. I'd be set up to do either rims or herms this way. This PID I would want to raise to and hold at a certain temp is all.

Would using 3 PIDs be overkill? Is there a better/more economical way to go about doing what I mean to do?

Don't buy a PID if you are only going to use it for manual mode... get one of these, it's much more practical and awesomer.

Click Me

 

[TungstenBeer]

Don't buy a PID if you are only going to use it for manual mode... get one of these, it's much more practical and awesomer.

Click Me

... as long as you're OK with not having a temp readout on your display.

 

[HumulusHead]

I do like those. But I'm gonna go with one PID that I will use to control both HLT and BK. HLT will require temp control.

I need to update my op more!

 

[HumulusHead]

Just ordered myself a control panel enclosure off ebay!

Got this one for $56

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=201219909225

Was hoping to find a better deal, but hopefully I can re use some of the controls that come with this. The layout of the holes should work just fine, at least I think so right now. Will have to add a couple more holes prob, but that's ok. Really like the style of this enclosure.

Also got the seller to throw in a couple 30A plugs to sweeten the deal!

 

[TungstenBeer]

Just ordered myself a control panel enclosure off ebay!

Got this one for $56

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=201219909225

Was hoping to find a better deal, but hopefully I can re use some of the controls that come with this. The layout of the holes should work just fine, at least I think so right now. Will have to add a couple more holes prob, but that's ok. Really like the style of this enclosure.

Also got the seller to throw in a couple 30A plugs to sweeten the deal!

Nice! From an aesthetics standpoint, I really like those sloped enclosures.

 

[HumulusHead]

Nice! From an aesthetics standpoint, I really like those sloped enclosures.

I do too, saw somebody's in the control panel forum and had to find one ha.

Hopefully there is enough room inside it to wire easily

 

[HumulusHead]

Quick question for anyone:

I found a 2 pole GFCI breaker that I can put in my main breaker panel on ebay for $45! With that I could skip the spa panel and a couple of the spendy plugs/recepticles

Problem is, the GFCI breaker is 50 amp, but my setup will be based off 30 amp. Is it bad to have that much "extra room" or should that be ok?

Its a really smoking deal on a GFCI breaker, so I don't wanna pass on it!

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Quick question for anyone:

I found a 2 pole GFCI breaker that I can put in my main breaker panel on ebay for $45! With that I could skip the spa panel and a couple of the spendy plugs/recepticles

Problem is, the GFCI breaker is 50 amp, but my setup will be based off 30 amp. Is it bad to have that much "extra room" or should that be ok?

Its a really smoking deal on a GFCI breaker, so I don't wanna pass on it!

Breakers protect the wire, not the device. this means that you have to wire for 50 amp and likely that additional wire cost will offest the cost difference for a plan old 30 AMP GFCI. 6 gauge wire ain't cheap and I am pretty sure you will need three strands of it.

 

[cantrell00]

Just one man's opinion but unless you intend to run the BK & HLT at the same time, you only need 2 temp probes & 1 PID...

1 probe in the brew kettle (really nice to see temps drop while chilling, whirlpool hopping at set temps, etc.. )

1 probe at the inlet to your MLT from your HERMS. This will regulate your HLT temp while recirculating and sparging.

It really doesn't need to be anymore complicated (or expensive) as that.

You can monitor the temp of the HLT & MLT with a simple $15.00 dial thermometer for reference points on the HERMS.

 

[HumulusHead]

Just one man's opinion but unless you intend to run the BK & HLT at the same time, you only need 2 temp probes & 1 PID...

1 probe in the brew kettle (really nice to see temps drop while chilling, whirlpool hopping at set temps, etc.. )

1 probe at the inlet to your MLT from your HERMS. This will regulate your HLT temp while recirculating and sparging.

It really doesn't need to be anymore complicated (or expensive) as that.

You can monitor the temp of the HLT & MLT with a simple $15.00 dial thermometer for reference points on the HERMS.

You gave me a good idea here.

First off, at this point, I will not be doing any HERMS system, though I will want to in the future.

But the idea you gave me is this.

You are right, I only DO need to go with one pid. I could really have as many thermometers as I want and just plug/unplug the right ones when needed. I was going to skip having on in the BK, but now I think i will put on in there. I agree that it would be nice to monitor temps for chilling, I like that idea.

I going to do a minimum of 2 probes at this point. 1 in the HLT (for the PID to read and control my strike/sparge water, still will be batch sparging) and 1 in the MLT to monitor the temp in the mash. I could either add another probe or just use the same one from the MLT. I know I will be mounting the probe for the HLT, but can't decide if I want to mount the one in the MLT. If I don't mount the one in the MLT it'll be as easy as pulling the probe out of the mash and setting in the BK! Or I could add a 3rd probe and mount all 3 in their respective vessels.

Regardless of which way I go, I agree, I can def go with just one PID!

 

[HumulusHead]

Breakers protect the wire, not the device. this means that you have to wire for 50 amp and likely that additional wire cost will offest the cost difference for a plan old 30 AMP GFCI. 6 gauge wire ain't cheap and I am pretty sure you will need three strands of it.

Ok thanks for the advice.

Crunched some numbers and you are right.

At this point it'll be the most economical to buy a 30 amp breaker and use a spa panel.

Unless I can find a good deal on a 30 amp Square D Homeline GFCI 2 pole...

 

[HumulusHead]

I updated the OP again in case anyone wants to know. Will start a section including all my costs and such.

 

[cantrell00]

You gave me a good idea here.

First off, at this point, I will not be doing any HERMS system, though I will want to in the future.

But the idea you gave me is this.

You are right, I only DO need to go with one pid. I could really have as many thermometers as I want and just plug/unplug the right ones when needed. I was going to skip having on in the BK, but now I think i will put on in there. I agree that it would be nice to monitor temps for chilling, I like that idea.

I going to do a minimum of 2 probes at this point. 1 in the HLT (for the PID to read and control my strike/sparge water, still will be batch sparging) and 1 in the MLT to monitor the temp in the mash. I could either add another probe or just use the same one from the MLT. I know I will be mounting the probe for the HLT, but can't decide if I want to mount the one in the MLT. If I don't mount the one in the MLT it'll be as easy as pulling the probe out of the mash and setting in the BK! Or I could add a 3rd probe and mount all 3 in their respective vessels.

Regardless of which way I go, I agree, I can def go with just one PID!

When you go HERMS you will find that having the PID reading the wort returning to your HLT to be the best place for your PID to measure.

If you place it at the inlet to the MLT the PID can assess any thermal losses post HLT.

The least effective place in my system for the PID to measure temps was the mash or the MLT drain.

All just FYI. You will need to tailor it to your setup obviously. Just passing on my experiences with it..

 

[HumulusHead]

When you go HERMS you will find that having the PID reading the wort returning to your HLT to be the best place for your PID to measure.

If you place it at the inlet to the MLT the PID can assess any thermal losses post HLT.

The least effective place in my system for the PID to measure temps was the mash or the MLT drain.

All just FYI. You will need to tailor it to your setup obviously. Just passing on my experiences with it..

I appreciate the advice! This will probably be the route I go in the future. Just am not able to incur the costs of HERMS at this point.

When I do though, I will use my current PID but configured for just the herms aspect. Then I would like to add a dial control for the BK.

 

[LandoLincoln]

You are right, I only DO need to go with one pid. I could really have as many thermometers as I want and just plug/unplug the right ones when needed.

That would work GREAT if thermo probes didn't need temperature correction. But a lot of them do.

 

[cantrell00]

That would work GREAT if thermo probes didn't need temperature correction. But a lot of them do.

This is undoubtedly true overall but my two Auber RTD's read the same... Certainly within a degree of each other.

The HLT probe is the one that is critical though. The brew kettle probe is really just a reference point.

 

[HumulusHead]

That would work GREAT if thermo probes didn't need temperature correction. But a lot of them do.

Ah good call. Didn't think of this.

I'd like to have accurate readings of my MLT and HLT using one probe for each. May need to go back to my previous idea of getting a 2nd PID.

 

[augiedoggy]

Are we still talking about $200 for 2 auber pids and sensors with shipping or $50 for thier functional equivalent from eBay or amazon?
Because I would recommend spending $100 on 2 mypin pids, 2 rtd pt100 sensors and the coil and fittings for your herms since you mentioned you don't have the extra money to waste.
The rtd sensors on aubers site are in no way superior to the same ones made in the same factories in China which auber stocks locally and marks up for this reason...

I can comment on how much better the pids really are but I have 4 mypin pids and all work flawlessly and have for over a year.
I f I haven't mentioned it yet you would want a ta4 for the hlt since you don't need manual mode and a td4 for the boil kettle... Td4 models run about $26 with shipping and the ta4 as little as $20 they are the same except one has manual mode option built in.