My Electric Brewery

[HumulusHead]

Hello All

I have recently been thinking about upgrading my equipment to accommodate 10 gallon batches. I currently brew in my garage using a propane fish cooker. This has been working just fine, but I find that I mostly brew during the winter time and I really want to be able to brew with the door closed. So with those 2 "wants" in mind, I have decided to start slowly putting together an electric brewery.

This thread will most likely be just a place to store my thoughts for now since I can't afford to fully jump into this right away (according to my wife). But once I start, I will try to keep a build update thing going. I have always wanted to do that!

My goal for this brewery is to be able to brew 10 gallon batches, use only electricity for heat source, keep costs low, and keep design simple. I am planning to do this without any pumps right away. I am going to design my system to be able to be upgraded easily in the future to the max of what I will need. I know that I will not be wanting to brew more than 10 gallon batches on this system.

I currently have 3 15.5 gallon kegs sitting around, so I plan to use them. I really only want to use 2 though. One for my HLT and one for my BK.

I have a 10 gallon cooler mash tun with false bottom that I LOVE. I have had great results with it even in cold weather. According to a chart I saw from Bobby, I should be able to brew up to 1.060 OG batches in the cooler at 10 gallon batches (1.25qts/gal). I don't plan on ever wanting to brew a 10 gal batch of big beer. I generally brew beers that top out around 1.060 at this point anyways, its the beer that I enjoy most!

So I have started sort of a parts list/to do list/idea list/dream list, I really like lists.

Garage Upgrades I will need/want to do a few things in the garage to make this possible.
-Brew Stand. I need to build some sort of brew stand to hold everything. This thing will most likely be designed last, so I can brew a few times on some tables I have to so I can decide which permanent stand configuration I would want.
-Edited 2/2/15 Electrical Supply. I will be adding a 30amp 240v outlet in my garage. Decided I just want to run one 5500watt element at a time. My utility room shares a wall with the garage so the wire running should be quite simple. Plan to put a 30A240V non-gfci breaker in the panel. Run 10/3 wire from breaker. 30A outlet in garage. 50A spa panel (possibly incorp'd in control panel?) wired to a 30A plug that plugs in outlet. I will be GFCI protected.
-Throwing around the idea of adding a drain in the garage somehow for a sink so that I can chill in the garage (already have tap in garage) and wash in a utility sink that I could add too.
-Vent hood? Would this be necessary? My garage is a tuck-under style and is below my master bedroom and is fully insulated. I would think I would want to add a vent hood??

Brew Items The good stuff!

HLT
-Make out of Keg
-4500w element DIY
-Some sort of temp probe
-Valve
-Sight gauge

Boil Kettle
-Make out of keg
-5500w element DIY
-Valve
-Sight gauge (would this be a bad idea on a BK? I really want one on it to hit my volumes better)
-Analog temp probe to monitor cooling progress

Mash Tun
-Plan to keep using my 10 gallon cooler with false bottom. Love it, and I have been getting real good at keeping temps on it.
-This is where I plan to save alot of money. Not doing a HERMS system, at least right now (but will be able to upgrade later if I really want, but not wanted right now). I will not need to buy herms coil, pumps, etc for this.
-Temp probe.

Control Panel
-Going to be similar to this wiring diagram. I will be adding a plug port for the RTD sensor though, so I can switch which RTD the PID will read.

MISC
-Wanting to incorporate a RO system so I can stop buying 9 gallons of DI water every brew day


I will add to this post as things progress and as my plans change, which they will a million times I am sure!

I apologize for the lengthy read, but I like putting my thoughts to paper (or the web I guess?).

If anyone has any comments or suggestions feel free to let me know! Otherwise just wish me luck on this endeavor!

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Sink is easy if you have an attached garage....

http://www.saniflo.com/product-details-for-sanishower\

...as an example. Simple 5 gal bucket with a sump pump does the same thing if you are a bit redneck. Pump it into an adjacent laundry sink vent (or kitchen sink vent).

50 amp plug and twin 5500 amp elements seems overkill. It is not the total amperage as much as your intended use. In your scenario you are more likely to be using 110V 20 amp and 5500 amp 220v simultaneously. Maybe another 15 amp 110V circuit.

So, spa panel with two extra breakers is a great. 30 amp 220 plug...boiler. left leg, 20 amp 110. Right leg, 15 amp 110.

If you later go full monty with a 50 amp control panel, no issue. ?Wire and Spa panel are there.

 

[HumulusHead]

I'm gonna use this for my parts list of items I've bought so far

220V Wiring
-L14-30R receptacle ($10.99 ebay)
-25LF 10-3 wire ($36.37 HD)
-Square D homeline 30amp breaker ($8.65 HD)

BK Parts
-keg (FREE!)
-weldless keg sight kit ($19.99 bargain fittings)
-Weldless bulkhead kit. SS 3 piece ball valve. SS 1/2" hose barb outside. SS 90* elbow inside. ($25.95 bargain fittings)
-Wirlpool / Side pickup with 1/2" compression fittings ($19.99 bargain fittings)
-I need to layoff ordering things when I've had a few homebrews... prob could have sourced these parts cheaper...

HLT Parts
-keg (FREE!)
-PT100 RTD probe ($9.99 amazon)

Control Panel Parts
-Enclosure with a couple possibly usable switches ($56 ebay)
-Mypin TD4 PID w/ 25A SSR and heatsink ($35.99 amazon)
-7 ea LED lights, 3 ea 2way switches, 1 ea buzzer/alarm, 1 ea lighted pushbutton, 1 ea 110v coil, 2 ea 220v coils, amp/volt meter ($65 HBT classifieds)
-Spa Panel 50A 240V ($38.99 ebay)
-6 ea 8 position terminal blocks ($10.78 ebay)
-2 ea 40mm PC Fans w/ Grills ($8.55 ebay)
-heat sink compound ($2.88 ebay)
-15w 12v transformer (for PC fans) ($9.99 ebay)
-8 ea 1000ohm 1w resistors ($2.90 ebay)
-2 ea 30A 240V relays ($15.96 ebay)
-estop ($7.46 amazon)
-3 position selector switch ($6.35 amazon)


Tools/Misc
-Klein Tools Step Bit ($60 HD)



THINGS NEEDED
-All wire for inside CP
-some various 30amp locking plugs/receps
-inline fuses
-

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Would you be reccomending not using a 5500w element in my HLT then? Or what would the 110v20A be used for?

I understand what you are saying about splitting the wiring to accomodate a max 50A usage. Then installing a 30A outlet because that is all I will need. But then I'm confused as to what the 110V20A leg would be used for?

Yeah, a 2000 W 110V element in the HLT can do a 100 degree rise in 10-12 gallons in about 45 minutes on a 32 degree day with top off the cooler. So why do big there? That is your 20 amp leg. Element, controller, wiring, simple switch are much less expensive.

 

[HumulusHead]

Well ****!

I like it. Also keeps the plan going of not ruining any future updgrades. With this idea I should be able to just add in the neccessary pieces to the control panel and update the 30A outlet to a 50A outlet right?

Now what I don't get is what would be in my BK? I would like the 5500w element in there I think?!?

This is the part that is confusing to me. You say the 30A220V would split into 20A110V and 15A110V. To me it seems like those together would be 35A??

 

[Bobby_M]

It doesn't sound like running the 50 amp circuit is that big of a deal. I would never recommend a 120v element unless absolutely limited like in a rental situation. 50amp vs 30 amp is whether you want run two big elements at the same time. On a normal brew day it is not necessary because the hlt will be up to temp by the time you need to boil.

 

[HumulusHead]

It doesn't sound like running the 50 amp circuit is that big of a deal. I would never recommend a 120v element unless absolutely limited like in a rental situation. 50amp vs 30 amp is whether you want run two big elements at the same time. On a normal brew day it is not necessary because the hlt will be up to temp by the time you need to boil.

So you think I'd be fine with 2 220v elements and a 30 amp panel? As long as I don't fire both at the same time?

Would you say go with a 5500w element in the HLT or would that be considered overkill/unnecessary expense?

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Well ****!

I like it. Also keeps the plan going of not ruining any future updgrades. With this idea I should be able to just add in the neccessary pieces to the control panel and update the 30A outlet to a 50A outlet right?

Now what I don't get is what would be in my BK? I would like the 5500w element in there I think?!?

This is the part that is confusing to me. You say the 30A220V would split into 20A110V and 15A110V. To me it seems like those together would be 35A??

Your Spa panel remains the same 50-70 AMP GFCI. then two 110 circuits and 220V circuit.

I was just taking about a simple 20amp outlet and timer for eHLT.

A 15 amp circuit for the pump and lights.

220V circuit for the boiler.

You have to decide HOW analog are you. The HLT can so be a dumb, I mean really dumb, box. Your goal is to make hot water that is not too hot for the vessel...and other control is gravy.

Boiler needs to be controllable to adjust the boil.

Pump...wel that can be a lightswitch or a PID controlled master piece that makes it the heart of you system. Lots of room in between those extremes.

 

[HumulusHead]

Your Spa panel remains the same 50-70 AMP GFCI. then two 110 circuits and 220V circuit.

I was just taking about a simple 20amp outlet and timer for eHLT.

A 15 amp circuit for the pump and lights.

220V circuit for the boiler.

You have to decide HOW analog are you. The HLT can so be a dumb, I mean really dumb, box. Your goal is to make hot water that is not too hot for the vessel...and other control is gravy.

Boiler needs to be controllable to adjust the boil.

Pump...wel that can be a lightswitch or a PID controlled master piece that makes it the heart of you system. Lots of room in between those extremes.

Ah I see what you are saying now.

I would prefer that everything goes thru one control panel cable so that I can take it with me if I move, like just plug in the one power cable to the dedicated outlet and go.

I only want the elements to be "smart" enough to hold a one set constant temp. Like 160* strike water and 212* boil.

Or is this whole idea starting to sound like I should scrap a control panel idea due to under utilization?

 

[HumulusHead]

Ah I see what you are saying now.

I would prefer that everything goes thru one control panel cable so that I can take it with me if I move, like just plug in the one power cable to the dedicated outlet and go.

I only want the elements to be "smart" enough to hold a one set constant temp. Like 160* strike water and 212* boil.

Or is this whole idea starting to sound like I should scrap a control panel idea due to under utilization?

After re reading this post I realize I CAN get all that power to the control panel from that single outlet. Dumb me.

 

[augiedoggy]

So you think I'd be fine with 2 220v elements and a 30 amp panel? As long as I don't fire both at the same time?

Would you say go with a 5500w element in the HLT or would that be considered overkill/unnecessary expense?

That's what I have... only I use 2 4500w elements which is plenty for 5-10 Fallon brews... I can also run my 1000w RIMs tube at the same time as either of my bigger elements...50amp is only needed if your going to make an 8-9 hr day out of back to back batches...heating water for the next batch while your still boiling the other..

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm actually brewing an imperial chocolate oatmeal stout right now with my 30a setup... as you can see I even power my glycol chiller and heaters for some of my fermentors off the same circuit.
I use cheap 24v DC pumps so they don't draw much and the pods and such attached draw less than 1/2amp together...

 

[augiedoggy]

I can't seem to get a good pic of the boil here but this is between 6.5-7 gallons boiling with the element set to 70% in manual pwm mode... its a very intense boil. 75% produces the same with 11.4-12 gallons

 

[Onkel_Udo]

I only want the elements to be "smart" enough to hold a one set constant temp. Like 160* strike water and 212* boil.

Or is this whole idea starting to sound like I should scrap a control panel idea due to under utilization?

So honestly, now a spa panel sounds less useful and a simple 50 amp GFCI breaker in the main panel and a 50 amp outlet is you best bet.

At that point you enclosure and what you put in it is completely at your discretion. The overall cost difference is in the wire (+- $40) and the breaker (-$20 from a spa panel) and outlet...not sure the price difference fot that and the wire to go with it.

 

[BigFloppy]

For RO system, join your local saltwater / reef club, there's always deals with people selling up/out

 

[augiedoggy]

So honestly, now a spa panel sounds less useful and a simple 50 amp GFCI breaker in the main panel and a 50 amp outlet is you best bet.

At that point you enclosure and what you put in it is completely at your discretion. The overall cost difference is in the wire (+- $40) and the breaker (-$20 from a spa panel) and outlet...not sure the price difference fot that and the wire to go with it.

Both methods have advantages Spa panel with gfci is $50 vs just a gfci breaker for your main panel costing $80+. ( different type of breaker)..plus having a main disconnect near the panel can be nice... Either way will work though

 

[augiedoggy]

For RO system, join your local saltwater / reef club, there's always deals with people selling up/out

I bought a "max water" to system on eBay just over a year ago for my reef tank... About $120 shipped and it works very well... I don't really ever use it for my beer though. I may some day but the few beers I have used it for were lacking since I did not add the correct minerals and salts back in.

 

[HumulusHead]

For RO system, join your local saltwater / reef club, there's always deals with people selling up/out

What would my local saltwater club be

I'm just playing wit ya. I think the closest ocean to me is the pacific. Maybe. Or the Atlantic? Damn I ain't sure.

 

[HumulusHead]

I can't seem to get a good pic of the boil here but this is between 6.5-7 gallons boiling with the element set to 70% in manual pwm mode... its a very intense boil. 75% produces the same with 11.4-12 gallons

I'm not sure what the PWM means. But you can get over 10 gallons to boil with 4500w element? I may be over engineering my setup.

And you can run 4500w + a 1000w rims together? Well that would actually fully change my mind on ever upgrading to a herms system and just do exactly what you did... I can imagine that a 1000w rims would actually be plenty to keep a mash at temp. I was always thinking of a herms setup.

 

[LandoLincoln]

So you think I'd be fine with 2 220v elements and a 30 amp panel? As long as I don't fire both at the same time?

Would you say go with a 5500w element in the HLT or would that be considered overkill/unnecessary expense?

Yeah, you could do it. But the cost to run bigger wiring for a 50a panel vs. a 30a panel is not that great, so if you're doing it, may as well do it right the first time. 50a wiring can handle a 30a panel just fine, but not the other way around.

I'm glad I have the capability to run both elements at the same time. I heat my strike water with my BK and my sparge water with my HLT. Plus I can run back-to-back brew sessions if I want to. I don't do it that much, but it's nice to know I can.

 

[HumulusHead]

Yeah, you could do it. But the cost to run bigger wiring for a 50a panel vs. a 30a panel is not that great, so if you're doing it, may as well do it right the first time. 50a wiring can handle a 30a panel just fine, but not the other way around.



I'm glad I have the capability to run both elements at the same time. I heat my strike water with my BK and my sparge water with my HLT. Plus I can run back-to-back brew sessions if I want to. I don't do it that much, but it's nice to know I can.

Why do you heat your sparge water in your BK? Larger element than your HLT?

 

[HumulusHead]

Why do you heat your sparge water in your BK? Larger element than your HLT?

Stoke in BK I meant

 

[HumulusHead]

Stoke in BK I meant

****! Strike in BK I meant all along. Dcufikng iPhone is a piece of tsih

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm not sure what the PWM means. But you can get over 10 gallons to boil with 4500w element? I may be over engineering my setup.

And you can run 4500w + a 1000w rims together? Well that would actually fully change my mind on ever upgrading to a herms system and just do exactly what you did... I can imagine that a 1000w rims would actually be plenty to keep a mash at temp. I was always thinking of a herms setup.

4500w is PLENTY for boiling 11-12 gallons... like I said I never go over 75% powercycle in pwm (pulse width modulation) Which basically turns the element on and off super fast to produce different power levels of heat coming from the element.)
Basically there is two types of power control for these elements one is variable resistance which actually raises and lowers the voltage to the element and pwm (fast switching) pids use pwm to control temps, better pids also have "manual mode" where you can set a value between 1-100 which + power level... example if the pid is in manual mode and set to 70% its on for 70% of each second and power is switched off the other 30% of each second... (unless someone messed up the cycle time settings in the pids setup).
Hopefully this helps you understand things a bit more..
My first setup was a herms and I only used a 25Ft coil and didnt have god water circulation in my HLT so the performance was very slow and poor compared to my rims setup which is dead on....

 

[augiedoggy]

Yeah, you could do it. But the cost to run bigger wiring for a 50a panel vs. a 30a panel is not that great, so if you're doing it, may as well do it right the first time. 50a wiring can handle a 30a panel just fine, but not the other way around.

I'm glad I have the capability to run both elements at the same time. I heat my strike water with my BK and my sparge water with my HLT. Plus I can run back-to-back brew sessions if I want to. I don't do it that much, but it's nice to know I can.

You also dont want to have too many amps being drawn off a service that cant safely handle it... some people like myself live in an older home with 100a service... with a 60a hot tub which cycles itself on and off for maintenance and a saltwater reeftank competing for power another 50amp circuit is not a good idea even if I wanted to spend the additional $50-75 for the larger wire and fight with fishing it through my walls...(a lot more work than a single 10g romex setup) and I dont even use electric for the stove or dyer like some do... of course it you setup some sort of system to prevent someone from running one while the other is going that would work I guess...

 

[Onkel_Udo]

of course it you setup some sort of system to prevent someone from running one while the other is going that would work I guess...

There are lots of ways to accomplish this but the simplest is to pull the handle on the hot tub's spa panel and slap padlock (or even just a zip tie) through the lock-out.

 

[HumulusHead]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1422542775.367019.jpg

I'm thinking of going this route from PJ. Would it be fine though to sub 4500 watt elements instead of the 5500w elements and still use this same schematic? My instincts say yes

I'll prob wire it for the pumps since I'm doing it.

Also, would one PID be enough to control both elements? And is this the "good" PID that shows the PWM?

 

[HumulusHead]

View attachment 252338

I'm thinking of going this route from PJ. Would it be fine though to sub 4500 watt elements instead of the 5500w elements and still use this same schematic? My instincts say yes

I'll prob wire it for the pumps since I'm doing it.

Also, would one PID be enough to control both elements? And is this the "good" PID that shows the PWM?

Would this setup only allow one thermometer? I guess I could install 2 therms and just make sure the correct one is plugged in depending on whether I'm using the bk or HLT. That sounds like I'd be asking for issues tho...

 

[augiedoggy]

There are lots of ways to accomplish this but the simplest is to pull the handle on the hot tub's spa panel and slap padlock (or even just a zip tie) through the lock-out.

the main issue is that is the lines in my hot tub with start freezing within a few hoursand God forbid I forget to turn it back on. but its a non issue really since I don't need anything more than the 30 amp circuit I have now

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm not sure which one of the units in PJs diagrams has manual mode but the mypin td4 models do have manual modethat's what I use and yes you can substitute a 4500 watt element instead of a 5500 watt without changing the wiring