My batch sparge efficiency theory was confirmed again

[Beerrific]

This thread could not have come at a better time. I have read every detail in Ken Schwartz's piece on Batch Sparging. Yeah, it made sense to me, but I still don't get the calculations for Batch Sparging as he makes it out to be quite the task. Any one have a simpler method for figuring out what your Grain Bill should be if your are going to Batch Sparge?

Is this the mess of math showing how you should convert your recipe if you are using batch sparging (the one I am thinking of involves derivatives, etc.)?

It is much easier to just take a recipe, use a program like Pro Mash to adjust you base malt to give you the correct OG using your efficiency. Once you get your process down your efficiency shouldn't change that much.

 

[JeffNYC]

Jeff, I think it's pretty difficult to figure out the equilized temp given a certain mash + infusion situation. That's why I think purchasing a software package for this is the best bang for the buck at only $20-25. Beersmith and Beertoolspro both help in this regard.
I would have never guessed that adding 5 gallons at 178F would have brought my grainbed up to 166F. Now that I know it does, you could take a wild guess and say that it may equalize at about half way between the mash temp and your sparge infusion temp. The ratios of grain weight and infusion volume obviously play into it.

To say it another way, if you don't do a specific high temp mash out infusion prior to first runnings AND you only sparge with 168-170F water, your grain bed is really not hitting the sugar soluability sweet spot. A first sparge at 170 would probably get it up to 158F and a second one would probably get it to 162F. Yes, it's increasing a bit, but not as much as you could. That assumed threshold of tannin extraction (170F) is about the grain bed temp, not the infusion water temp.

I use Beersmith, but the default is 168 for both sparges.

 

[Bobby_M]

I think they er on the side of safety. If you infuse water higher than 170 and don't stir right away, there is a chance of hot spots that may pull some tannins. I don't play around though, I dump it in and stir immediately to equalize the temp as fast as possible. I wonder if Beersmith has the flexibility to modify this or not. If not, that's one up for BTP.

 

[FlyGuy]

I wonder if Beersmith has the flexibility to modify this or not.

Yep, you can do it no problem. Just type in the mash-out temp you want to hit, and it will calculate the infusion temp (if it is possible for that volume -- it warns you if not).

 

[Bobby_M]

Man, you're pissing me off now. Here I was trying to justify my blind purchase of BTP and you give me more reason to doubt. ;-)

 

[JeffNYC]

Yep, you can do it no problem. Just type in the mash-out temp you want to hit, and it will calculate the infusion temp (if it is possible for that volume -- it warns you if not).

I choose batch sparge option which does not have a mash out (at least that I can see). If I split into two batch sparges, both are 168. I will do some trial and error to gradually get the first sparge up to 168. Let me know if you see another option or work around on this on Beersmith.

 

[FlyGuy]

I choose batch sparge option which does not have a mash out (at least that I can see). If I split into two batch sparges, both are 168. I will do some trial and error to gradually get the first sparge up to 168. Let me know if you see another option or work around on this on Beersmith.

I don't have the software in front of me at the moment, but if IIRC this should work: select a mash profile with a mash out. Go into the 'Details' of the profile, and check off both the options to designate a batch sparge and to use equal batch sparge volumes. That should do the trick! (If not, let me know and I will check again when I get home with the software in front of me.)

 

[JeffNYC]

Tried that (or at least what I think you are saying). Still gives me a mash out, which I assume means water added to the mash to bring the temperature up to 168. Is that what you are suggesting, for the first "sparge" added to the mash before draining off the first runnings?

I was assuming that the first runnings were drawn off (at mashing temperature), then the sparge #1 and #2 split evenly with #1 bringing the temp up to 168 (to mash out) and the second sparging at 168.

 

[FlyGuy]

Tried that (or at least what I think you are saying). Still gives me a mash out, which I assume means water added to the mash to bring the temperature up to 168. Is that what you are suggesting, for the first "sparge" added to the mash before draining off the first runnings?

I was assuming that the first runnings were drawn off (at mashing temperature), then the sparge #1 and #2 split evenly with #1 bringing the temp up to 168 (to mash out) and the second sparging at 168.

Ah, OK, now I understand better. No, the mash-out is a separate infusion from the sparges, if you intend to perform two equal-sized batch sparges. By default, Beersmith will attempt to perform ONE batch sparge if you have enough room in your mash tun. Otherwise, it will automatically calculate two sparges of equal volume (assuming you have the option enabled in the mash profile).

So, to fix things, all you should have to do is play with the setting that says something like 'batches that fill xx% of the mash tun'. Drop that percentage until you see two sparges appear -- that's it.

I think there is another way to set up the software to do two batch sparges automatically, but I am not certain without having it in front of me. Sorry.

Now, to really confuse things, you could try Bobby's new experiment and do two equal volume batch sparges, but make the first one hotter to raise the temp of the grainbed after you have lautered your first runnings. But I think that might take some manual effort with the software.

Hope that helps!

 

[Bobby_M]

You could just experiment. Getting the sparge infusions up to 180F stands no chance of breaking the 170f barrier once temps equalize. Try that and measure your grainbed temps to give you an idea of how much hotter you "could" go.

 

[JeffNYC]

Bobby_M, just for clarification can you confirm your approach:

Option #1
Two batch sparges (equal in size) with the "mash out" being the sparge #1 (bringing temp to 168). This seems to be what you are suggesting, otherwise one wouldn't need to have sparge #1 at a different temp at sparge #2 as the grains would be brought up to mashout temp with an infusion as below:

The figures:
5 gallon batch
15 lbs of grain
Mash In, 18.75 qt at 171.4 F, 154.0 F, 60 min (1.25 quarts/lb)
Sparge #1, 1.9 gallons (to bring up grain up to 168.0 F)
Sparge #2, 1.9 gallons at 168.0 F


or



Option #2
Mash out as infusion mash, bringing mash to 168 by adding boiling water to the mash, then two batch sparges (equal in size of the remainder)

The figures:
5 gallon batch
15 lbs of grain
Mash In, 16.50 qt at 173.7 F, 154.0 F, 60 min (1.1 quarts/lb)
Mash Out, 7.00 qt 209.1 F, 168.0 F, 10 min
Sparge #1, 1.3 gallons (seem puny for 15 lbs of grain?)
Sparge #2, 1.3 gallons (seem puny for 15 lbs of grain?)

 

[Bobby_M]

Jeff,
You're right, option 2 does leave you with really small infusions if you split the batch in addition to the mash out. I've never used that much grist for a 5 gallon batch though since my OGs are usually in the upper 40's to mid 50's.

I'd suggest option 1 at least for grain bills this large. Otherwise I'd try option 3, mash out plus one large sparge (not split).

 

[JeffNYC]

Thanks. I am targeting 1.075 or so on this beer. Guess I can use less grain assuming a "jump" in efficiency to 75% (or dilute chilled wort to fix) the OG. Heaven forbid if I get 85%!

Very helpful feedback and thoughts in the thread.

 

[miatawnt2b]

This is a very good thread... learned a lot. I have read other conflicting things regarding batch sparge speed. Should I go fast , medium, slow?

Thanks,
-J

 

[Bobby_M]

IMHO, the speed of a batch sparge makes no difference. You want everything to be well saturated but it's nothing a 5 minute stir can't do. After that, you start your vorlauf and the grainbed will set nicely during that short 3-5 minute duration. After that, let it rip.

In fly, it matters.

 

[sleepystevenson]

This has been a great thread to lurk on...

Quick question, does anyone use boiling water to get the mash up to 168 +/- for mashout? (Mash will be at 155 for 60 min)

I was going to use this calculator (http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml), to determine mashout / sparge volume.

Thoughts?

 

[Funkenjaeger]

Quick question, does anyone use boiling water to get the mash up to 168 +/- for mashout? (Mash will be at 155 for 60 min)

From the 4th post in this thread:

Oh, and the mash out volume is whatever volume of boiling water it takes to get me into the upper 160's which I learn from beertoolspro.

This is a great thread, I only have a few AG batches under my belt so my technique is still up in the air anyway, so it's helpful to have a good batch sparging technique to target.

 

[chrisknight]

Mash out, single sparge = 80% (MOSS)
Mash out, double sparge = 86% (MODS)

I did a 10 gallon batch yesterday and hit 80% again using the Mash Out + single sparge. I knew it could have been better because the very last of the sparge runnings was still 1.025. In my MODS (mash out double sparge) trial, the last running was exactly 1.010.

By double sparge, do you mean that you cut your entire sparge volume in 1/2 and sparge 2 times with 1/2 volume each time?

Hmmm... interesting.. I'm going to try this tomorrow... Mash & run mash off? ....Or should I add 1st sparge (1/2 of total sparge water) on top of mash before run off? I have always followed Denny Conn & shot for 2 equal runoffs...
Thanks!

 

[sleepystevenson]

Thanks, Jaeger. This post is so long, i forgot about that by the time i got to the end and posted the question!

 

[ThaDutchMasta]

i think ill try a double sparge on my upcoming IPA thanks for the help all!

 

[tdavisii]

You really experienced guys need to make some videos and put them up here. Seriously. You guys seem to have your S*&t together. Its really hard to understand some of the stuff without seeing it. Just a suggestion if you have the resources. I would be totally willing to donate to a HBT fund of videos if it were to help.

 

[Lil' Sparky]

A few have.

Bobby_M: http://www.youtube.com/bobbyfromnj
Yuri_Rage: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=49645

I'd like to video my brew day using my brew stand, but I'm sad to say I don't have a good digital cam corder.

 

[tdavisii]

That is f*&king awesome. Wish i knew about this before. Thanks.

 

[njnear76]

For those of you guys who don't mill your own... I've been doing Bobby's method and routinely getting 90% efficiency using a 120 minute mash. I think the 5.2ph stabalizer might have played a small factor too.

 

[Bobby_M]

A few have.

Bobby_M: http://www.youtube.com/bobbyfromnj
Yuri_Rage: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=49645

I'd like to video my brew day using my brew stand, but I'm sad to say I don't have a good digital cam corder.

How about a digital camera that takes video clips?

 

[riored4v]

Just noticed that from this thread and whats listed on your site, you seemed to have increased your effeciency from 75% to 88-92% using the NMODS.. am i seeing that correctly?

What all did you change to increase the effeciency, if anything?

 

[Lil' Sparky]

How about a digital camera that takes video clips?

I've got a little Nikon that takes great pics but the videos are poor.

 

[Bobby_M]

I see that this older thread got bumped but I'm not currently advocating a mash out infusion because I found that a no mash out, double sparge produced the same or better efficiency as long as your sparge temp was elevated to about 180F or whatever temp it takes to raise the grainbed near 170F by the second infusion. The method is described at the bottom of this page: www.suebob.com/brew/allgrain.htm

When I posted this thread a while back, I was limiting my sparge infusions to 170F so it makes sense that a hot mash out infusion would boost efficiency. I also think that buying a mill and cranking it down made a difference.

The caveat is, you'll actually lose efficiency if your sparge infusions are less than 1qt per pound. This can easily happen when you do a MODS on a big beer.

 

[riored4v]

I see that this older thread got bumped but I'm not currently advocating a mash out infusion because I found that a no mash out, double sparge produced the same or better efficiency as long as your sparge temp was elevated to about 180F or whatever temp it takes to raise the grainbed near 170F by the second infusion. The method is described at the bottom of this page: www.suebob.com/brew/allgrain.htm

When I posted this thread a while back, I was limiting my sparge infusions to 170F so it makes sense that a hot mash out infusion would boost efficiency. I also think that buying a mill and cranking it down made a difference.

The caveat is, you'll actually lose efficiency if your sparge infusions are less than 1qt per pound. This can easily happen when you do a MODS on a big beer.

thanks

 

[Lil' Sparky]

The caveat is, you'll actually lose efficiency if your sparge infusions are less than 1qt per pound. This can easily happen when you do a MODS on a big beer.

Why do you think?