Multi-step saccrification rests

[Lost1anguage]

I used that very same chart. I found it on palmers website. But he clearly states that those are the optimal ranges for conversion. Clearly there is still some conversion outside those ranges no?

I mean isn't that why single infusion mashes aim for 148-156, because it's right in the middle, and you get both?

Also while there were other differences from the last batch of mashing in the cooler to this batch of direct heat mashing in a kettle, I'm not quite sold that the additional rests didn't get me a bit more efficiency. I used to get BH of 75% with my old setup and this time I got 80%. Doesn't mean you're wrong however, I'm fully open to the notion that I clearly have less of expertise than I think I do.

UPDATE:

I checked this morning and still no change. Its been another few days and I'm still at 1.060 (from 1.096 and expecting 1.018 with WLP099 super high grav). We're over a week at this point since pitching.

Someone else brought up under-pitching yeast. I think this is likely the next best step is to cook up another starter and pitch more before I seek some other remedy. Do I put that new yeast into the primary or should I rack it off to a secondary?

Anyone have input on a plan B if that proves faulty?

 

[Yooper]

I used that very same chart. I found it on palmers website. But he clearly states that those are the optimal ranges for conversion. Clearly there is still some conversion outside those ranges no?

I mean isn't that why single infusion mashes aim for 148-156, because it's right in the middle, and you get both?

Also while there were other differences from the last batch of mashing in the cooler to this batch of direct heat mashing in a kettle, I'm not quite sold that the additional rests didn't get me a bit more efficiency. I used to get BH of 75% with my old setup and this time I got 80%. Doesn't mean you're wrong however, I'm fully open to the notion that I clearly have less of expertise than I think I do.

UPDATE:

I checked this morning and still no change. Its been another few days and I'm still at 1.060 (from 1.096 and expecting 1.018 with WLP099 super high grav). We're over a week at this point since pitching.

Someone else brought up under-pitching yeast. I think this is likely the next best step is to cook up another starter and pitch more before I seek some other remedy. Do I put that new yeast into the primary or should I rack it off to a secondary?

Anyone have input on a plan B if that proves faulty?

Yep, you've got the right idea on the mash and temperatures. And, even if you do something like accidentally get the mash at 165 during dough-in, the enzymes don't immediately deactivate. It takes a bit of time to thoroughly denature the enzymes. A too-low temperature won't denature anything- it's when you go too high. That's why you can't do the alpha amylase rest first, then drop to beta amylase temperatures.

Ideally, you'd use a very active yeast cake to get this baby going again. Say, racking onto a yeast cake from a smaller beer or a big big starter at high krausen or just after. It does seem like underpitching is a problem. Did you aerate your wort well?

 

[mbobhat]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/File:Beta_amylase_activity.gif

This if from HBTs very own wiki and the same as the book i mentioned and is what I was talking about. It shows you the relative lifetime of beta amylase at a certain temperature.

Wiki page has the rest:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/The_Theory_of_Mashing

I think no one argues that the enzyme chart isn't valid, it is just more complicated when you do individual rests.

 

[Yooper]

I just had a crazy thought- can you double check your hydrometer in plain water to make sure it's not reading 10 or 20 points high? Your OG was very high, and now your current SG is very high and it'd be just a way to confirm your reading.

Also, can you post up your recipe? We can look and make sure that the ingredients you have should be fully fermentable with that mash schedule.

Are you sure you stayed at 140-145 for at least 40 minutes, and then at 156-160 for at least 20 minutes? Often, cooler mashes take longer for conversion and I just wanted to make sure that it would have had enough time to fully convert.

 

[Beergnomes]

In a few months I'll be doing my first step mash on a Belgian Witbier so this is interesting but re-pitching sounds like the answer. I've never had to re pitch but I have roused. The batch in fermenter now is being a tad sluggish in secondary because I set Temp control at 67 and the yeast I used preferred 68-75. Roused and set temp to 68. I always tell husband the simple answer is usually the correct answer. Works great when it comes to cars but I suppose that might not necessarily be the case with brewing. Good luck, hope I don't have issues when I do my step mash.

 

[dobe12]

And yes I have loads to learn but my gravity continues to slowly drop during secondary. Have I misunderstood that final gravity is when it stops dropping all together? Btw I am asking earnestly not being a smart arse.

I don't think we're on the same page here. I'm not talking about complete time from brew day to drinking. I'm talking about active fermentation and the beer reaches final gravity.

Your beer should stay on the yeast until active fermentation stops or until you get the same gravity reading over several days and even then probably a little longer for the yeast to clean up biproducts. My SOP is to leave the beer sit for 3 weeks then rack to a keg. I don't even bother checking the gravity until then... assuming I did see signs of fermentation with the first 12-48hrs.

Again, in most cases (not all, but most) active fermentation, meaning the gravity is dropping, should be complete within 7 days. It does not take yeast 2-3 weeks to ferment all the sugars out of a beer. Even for lagers, it doesn't take that long. If your beers take that long to reach their final gravity, I and others here would agree there is a problem. This isn't just me talking about my experiences, but science.

You may want to read a little more about this topic from a guy who knows a lot more than I.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-4.html

 

[Lost1anguage]

I don't have an oxygenation system, but I did transfer from the kettle to a bucket then from the bucket to the carboy. I have this odd obsession (correctly or incorrectly) with separating as much of the trub from the wort as I can so I loose as little as necessary and keep the brewhouse efficiency as close to the mash efficiency as I can. So I mean I think I aerated enough, when I go from vessel to vessel, I spray along the sides of the bucket/carboy so the surface area exposed is quite large. I mean my understanding of aeration is that once you reach a certain density/saturation of oxygen via agitation, you need additional tools (O2 stone, etc) to break that cap.

I did stay in the 140s for at least 40 minutes and was in the 158-160 range for at least 25 minutes. Plus I spent a few minutes getting from beta to alpha and from alpha to mashout. My kettle covers 3 gas burner on my stove, and is a bit slower than a propane burner.

Someone else said something about a time limit to the enzymes before they are useless. Is that accurate? Do the enzymes actually deactivate after a certain amount of time, what causes this?

I'll double check the hydrometer when I get home tonight!

My recipe called to mash:

9 lbs of pale 2 row
1.5 lbs of crystal 20l
1 lb of amber malt
1 lb of honey malt
1 lb of munich 10l
1/2 lb of flaked oats
1/2 lb of wheat malt
1/2 lb of rice hulls

 

[Beergnomes]

I don't think we're on the same page here. I'm not talking about complete time from brew day to drinking. I'm talking about active fermentation and the beer reaches final gravity.

Your beer should stay on the yeast until active fermentation stops or until you get the same gravity reading over several days and even then probably a little longer for the yeast to clean up biproducts. My SOP is to leave the beer sit for 3 weeks then rack to a keg. I don't even bother checking the gravity until then... assuming I did see signs of fermentation with the first 12-48hrs.

Again, in most cases (not all, but most) active fermentation, meaning the gravity is dropping, should be complete within 7 days. It does not take yeast 2-3 weeks to ferment all the sugars out of a beer. Even for lagers, it doesn't take that long. If your beers take that long to reach their final gravity, I and others here would agree there is a problem. This isn't just me talking about my experiences, but science.

You may want to read a little more about this topic from a guy who knows a lot more than I.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-4.html

If I start with a gravity of 16 brix 1.063 and hit 9 brix 1.036 after active I will still be dropping during secondary. Yes or no? All I meant was my beers need the 2 weeks in secondary to finish dropping down to final. I check often and find I tend to drop .001 every 2 days after active. Granted not the problem with attenuation that the original post is clearly having so I am off topic and mute.

 

[Yooper]

If I start with a gravity of 16 brix 1.063 and hit 9 brix 1.036 after active I will still be dropping during secondary. Yes or no? All I meant was my beers need the 2 weeks in secondary to finish dropping down to final. I check often and find I tend to drop .001 every 2 days after active. Granted not the problem with attenuation that the original post is clearly having so I am off topic and mute.

My beers will reach FG in 3-5 days usually, but lagers can take as long as 7-10 days.

A beer shouldn't drop any more after it's done, although the last few points may go a bit slower. If it's more than 10 days and your beer is still dropping gravity points, something is wrong. Either it's underpitched, underaerated, too cold, etc, or otherwise stressed.

and a beer should NEVER drop gravity further in the bottle (except for those 2 points you added when you added priming sugar). A beer should be completely finished, no longer dropping any SG points, and clear (or at least starting to clear) before bottling.

Taking weeks to get to a FG means fermentation issues that should be addressed, but beyond the scope of this thread to troubleshoot this right now. If you'd like to start your own thread in the "fermentation and yeast" area on this subject, I'm sure you'd get a lot of helpful responses and input!

 

[dobe12]

If I start with a gravity of 16 brix 1.063 and hit 9 brix 1.036 after active I will still be dropping during secondary. Yes or no? All I meant was my beers need the 2 weeks in secondary to finish dropping down to final. I check often and find I tend to drop .001 every 2 days after active. Granted not the problem with attenuation that the original post is clearly having so I am off topic and mute.

Sounds like your pulling it off of the yeast too early. You shouldn't rack to secondary until primary fermentation is complete... which in most cases shouldn't be any more than 4-7 days. EDIT: primary fermentation should be complete in 4-7 days, but it's a good idea to keep the beer on the yeast for a bit longer to clean up any unwanted biproducts.

And I'm going to completely agree with all Yooper said above this post.

 

[Denny]

I used that very same chart. I found it on palmers website. But he clearly states that those are the optimal ranges for conversion. Clearly there is still some conversion outside those ranges no?

I mean isn't that why single infusion mashes aim for 148-156, because it's right in the middle, and you get both?

Also while there were other differences from the last batch of mashing in the cooler to this batch of direct heat mashing in a kettle, I'm not quite sold that the additional rests didn't get me a bit more efficiency. I used to get BH of 75% with my old setup and this time I got 80%. Doesn't mean you're wrong however, I'm fully open to the notion that I clearly have less of expertise than I think I do.

UPDATE:

I checked this morning and still no change. Its been another few days and I'm still at 1.060 (from 1.096 and expecting 1.018 with WLP099 super high grav). We're over a week at this point since pitching.

Someone else brought up under-pitching yeast. I think this is likely the next best step is to cook up another starter and pitch more before I seek some other remedy. Do I put that new yeast into the primary or should I rack it off to a secondary?

Anyone have input on a plan B if that proves faulty?

Before you do that, you should try a forced ferment test to see if there are really fermentables in there for more yeast to work on.

 

[atoughram]

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Words to live by folks!

 

[Lost1anguage]

Before you do that, you should try a forced ferment test to see if there are really fermentables in there for more yeast to work on.

How do I do one of those?

 

[Denny]

How do I do one of those?

Put some of the fermenting beer into a container. Add a LOT of yeast...even bread yeast will work. Put it in a warm place and let it go. You"re not trying to make beer here. You're trying to find the outer limit that it will ferment to. If the gravity drops after a few days, then you know you have fermentables left. If it doesn't, adding more yeast to the main batch won't help.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fast_Ferment_Test

 

[Beergnomes]

Sounds like your pulling it off of the yeast too early. You shouldn't rack to secondary until primary fermentation is complete... which in most cases shouldn't be any more than 4-7 days. EDIT: primary fermentation should be complete in 4-7 days, but it's a good idea to keep the beer on the yeast for a bit longer to clean up any unwanted biproducts.

And I'm going to completely agree with all Yooper said above this post.

Ok lol, last time, I never said I was having issues, quite the contrary, my beers take off within 24 hrs, generally finish brew day at 6 pm then check activity in morning. I double pitch fresh smack packs into slightly higher gravity. I have an aeration system and a Blichmann Therminator. 1st beer was a 1.059 (approximate since the refractometer had not been properly calibrated) and hit 1.029 within a week and dropped to 1.025 in secondary. I have a 14 gal conical so secondary for me is a small dump at 10 days which is consistent for a British ESB. 2nd beer was a 1.058 and hit 1.032 within one week and dropped to 1.029 in secondary. 3rd beer 1.063 and hit 1.036 within one week and I expect to finish it soon. I check all gravities with a northern brewers calculator to properly adjust for alcohol since I use a refractometer. All three beers have same style, same grain bill, different, hops, different yeasts and mash temps that vary from 154-156 all slight variances as an experiment to see what gives results I am looking for. I never said that my beers were still dropping in the bottle, only that I have read that some bottle conditioned beers can drop .001 -.002 My BIG mistake was being inaccurate as to what is considered final gravity. My apologies. I was considering final as to mean done dropping completely. I have a racking arm so I check and sample a lot. Thanks for all the knowledgable in put. I recently brought my first beer (floor malted Maris otter base, British cask ale yeast) at 5 weeks in the bottle to my local liquor store where it was sampled by several brew junkies and a craft brew distributor. They loved it so I have since entered it in a British Beer Fest Competition. I may not get it all right just yet but I will be attending Siebel online intermediate in May and since I grew up in Germany and am fluent, I am striving for finishing at Weihenstephan. I am focusing on one style presently. British ales. I don' t attempt anything without days/weeks of study first so I am studying for the step mash I will be doing on my Wit.

 

[stpug]

Beergnomes, out of curiosity, have you measured any of your final gravity with a hydrometer? It would be interesting to see how well your corrected refractometer gravities and a hydrometer match up - even if you only did it for one beer.

I also use a refractometer but have never seen FGs that high for what I would consider "firm" beers. It seems that they would show quite sweet if they were indeed that FG.

 

[dobe12]

Ok lol, last time, I never said I was having issues, quite the contrary, my beers take off within 24 hrs, generally finish brew day at 6 pm then check activity in morning. I double pitch fresh smack packs into slightly higher gravity. I have an aeration system and a Blichmann Therminator. 1st beer was a 1.059 (approximate since the refractometer had not been properly calibrated) and hit 1.029 within a week and dropped to 1.025 in secondary. I have a 14 gal conical so secondary for me is a small dump at 10 days which is consistent for a British ESB. 2nd beer was a 1.058 and hit 1.032 within one week and dropped to 1.029 in secondary. 3rd beer 1.063 and hit 1.036 within one week and I expect to finish it soon. I check all gravities with a northern brewers calculator to properly adjust for alcohol since I use a refractometer. All three beers have same style, same grain bill, different, hops, different yeasts and mash temps that vary from 154-156 all slight variances as an experiment to see what gives results I am looking for. I never said that my beers were still dropping in the bottle, only that I have read that some bottle conditioned beers can drop .001 -.002 My BIG mistake was being inaccurate as to what is considered final gravity. My apologies. I was considering final as to mean done dropping completely. I have a racking arm so I check and sample a lot. Thanks for all the knowledgable in put. I recently brought my first beer (floor malted Maris otter base, British cask ale yeast) at 5 weeks in the bottle to my local liquor store where it was sampled by several brew junkies and a craft brew distributor. They loved it so I have since entered it in a British Beer Fest Competition. I may not get it all right just yet but I will be attending Siebel online intermediate in May and since I grew up in Germany and am fluent, I am striving for finishing at Weihenstephan. I am focusing on one style presently. British ales. I don' t attempt anything without days/weeks of study first so I am studying for the step mash I will be doing on my Wit.

We're not communicating right here and I'm starting to think we never will.

The topic we're discussing is whether fermentation should take days or weeks. It should only take days. If it takes weeks, there's something wrong. And by fermentation, I mean yeast taking the wort's original gravity down to the final gravity. This process is not a long 2-3 week process. It should only be taking 4-6 days.... again I'll reference Palmers book,
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-4.html

EXAMPLE: You say your beer went from 1.059 to 1.029 over a week. My point is this is not normal. Something is wrong here. Either there is a fermentation issue, a calculation issue, or your mashing at very high temps and creating a very unfermentable wort. This could be a result of bad temperature readings.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I'm simply trying to explain that it should not take weeks to reach final gravity.

EDIT: Your example above of 1.059 dropping to 1.029 is about 50% attenuation. That is extremely low for any yeast, even within 7 days. I'm simply suggesting there is a problem somewhere. It could be a simple calculation problem or maybe something larger like an issue with fermentation conditions or even your grist.... and then there's mash temp. Lots of places this could be an issue.

 

[IvanBrew]

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I'm simply trying to explain that it should not take weeks to reach final gravity.

FWIW, I agree...

Flavor will continue to change beyond (sometimes well beyond) the first week to 10 days, but the beer should definitely hit FG within that timeframe. I typically see vigorous fermentation in 12-24 hours and hit FG (or very near) within 3-5 days.

 

[Beergnomes]

Beergnomes, out of curiosity, have you measured any of your final gravity with a hydrometer? It would be interesting to see how well your corrected refractometer gravities and a hydrometer match up - even if you only did it for one beer.

I also use a refractometer but have never seen FGs that high for what I would consider "firm" beers. It seems that they would show quite sweet if they were indeed that FG.

Once the calculator converted the first one it had a final of 1.005 and an abv of just over 7, definitely not sweet. Clean finish. The second after calculator converted to 1.009 just over 6 abv I still have 2 weeks before it's 4 weeks in the bottle so we will see how she tastes pretty soon. The first one really turned out nice. Tested it blind side by side with landlords since similar profile and my test subjects liked mine better but they were very close. Turned out bright even though I used no filtering agents or whirling. Too stingy to use my hydrometer but I admit I need to bust it out and start familiarizing myself to it.

 

[stpug]

Okay, those were uncorrected gravities you posted above. I missed that fact.

I have been collecting a hydrometer reading along with my corrected refractometer reading for my own comparative purposes, and have been seeing great correspondence.

 

[fearwig]

I don't hit final gravity in 7 days ever. My current ales are in primary for 7-10 days then after dumping sit for another 2 weeks, then after priming sit another 4 - 6 weeks to properly bottle condition and peek. Can't rush everything, they can continue to drop a point or 2 even in the bottle.

Hahaha! Yes, mine drop about three points, after I prime them. Mysterious!

 

[Beergnomes]

We're not communicating right here and I'm starting to think we never will.

The topic we're discussing is whether fermentation should take days or weeks. It should only take days. If it takes weeks, there's something wrong. And by fermentation, I mean yeast taking the wort's original gravity down to the final gravity. This process is not a long 2-3 week process. It should only be taking 4-6 days.... again I'll reference Palmers book,
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-4.html

EXAMPLE: You say your beer went from 1.059 to 1.029 over a week. My point is this is not normal. Something is wrong here. Either there is a fermentation issue, a calculation issue, or your mashing at very high temps and creating a very unfermentable wort. This could be a result of bad temperature readings.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I'm simply trying to explain that it should not take weeks to reach final gravity.

EDIT: Your example above of 1.059 dropping to 1.029 is about 50% attenuation. That is extremely low for any yeast, even within 7 days. I'm simply suggesting there is a problem somewhere. It could be a simple calculation problem or maybe something larger like an issue with fermentation conditions or even your grist.... and then there's mash temp. Lots of places this could be an issue.

my mash temp was 154. Single infusion, batch sparge. If there is a problem it is probably with the refractometer reading or refractometer calibration vrs an hydrometer reading that is why I calculate final at bottling day with northern brewers calculator to convert to alcohol. I pitch at 69 it spikes a bit over 70 at take off (never higher than 74 and only briefly) and then maintains at 68 until I prime. I will soon be experimenting on starters but since I am double pitching smack packs that are bloating properly and taking off properly and are not old dates and the end result has no off flavors. According to beer smith my efficiencies are also good. I will break out the hydrometer and suffer the beer loss to determine if it is a refractometer issue but I doubt I would get yeast strain on 2 good smack packs with an 11 lb 10 oz grain bill. Maybe my notes are off since I didn't date every gravity check meticulously.

 

[Beergnomes]

Hahaha! Yes, mine drop about three points, after I prime them. Mysterious!

Don't know if mine do or not, just read that some do.

 

[dobe12]

Once the calculator converted the first one it had a final of 1.005 and an abv of just over 7, definitely not sweet. Clean finish. The second after calculator converted to 1.009 just over 6 abv I still have 2 weeks before it's 4 weeks in the bottle so we will see how she tastes pretty soon. The first one really turned out nice. Tested it blind side by side with landlords since similar profile and my test subjects liked mine better but they were very close. Turned out bright even though I used no filtering agents or whirling. Too stingy to use my hydrometer but I admit I need to bust it out and start familiarizing myself to it.

Well this is brand new information you're bringing to the table. These ARE better final gravity readings. I'm willing to bet that your beer was at these numbers in under a week. Which takes me back to my original statement and I continue to repeat, most beers will hit final gravity or at least very close to final gravity in under 7 days.

 

[Yooper]

Don't know if mine do or not, just read that some do.

No, they don't.

What DOES change is that you add 2 points of SG to them, and that ferments out.

Your refractometer data is simply incorrect. You are not getting the SG readings you are, and your fermentation is probably at FG within 5-7 days, just like ours are. Using a refractometer just isn't accurate for determining that and the readings are absolutely meaningless.

In any case, we're way off topic here so let's take this discussion to a new thread if we're going to continue it. It's incorrect information with the length of fermentation, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's step mashing questions and issues.

 

[Beergnomes]

Okay, those were uncorrected gravities you posted above. I missed that fact.

I have been collecting a hydrometer reading along with my corrected refractometer reading for my own comparative purposes, and have been seeing great correspondence.

I haven't used the hydrometer once yet. I know for fact that while doing my first beer my husband recalibrated the refractometer twice during fermentation because first he forgot to do it and then he discover that he had done it wrong. But, if I look at my notes from my second beer where calibration should be good and dates are accurate I still have gravity dropping in secondary. Brew day 12/28 read 1.058, checked 12/30 read 1.033, checked 1/01 read 1.032 and bottling day 1/20 read 1.029 I did not realize that all gravity activity is supposed to stop within the first week. I do know that after recalculating for alcohol the end numbers are within target range for my grain bill and the beer tastes stellar. I'm a serious home chef so a harsh critic of my own products. The only way I'm going to know what the problem is, if there is one is to use that bleeping hydrometer. The one in the fermenter now went from 16 brix 1.065 to 9 brix 1.036 in good time and is currently in secondary (dumped at 9 days) Going to check tonight to see if it has changed. It was brewed 2/22. I seriously didn't know that it was not supposed to be slowly dropping a bit in secondary. And I do read Palmers, Foster and Noonan.

 

[Beergnomes]

Lol sure thing, just haven't been able to find where to start a new thread

 

[fearwig]

 

[Denny]

my mash temp was 154. Single infusion, batch sparge. If there is a problem it is probably with the refractometer reading or refractometer calibration vrs an hydrometer reading that is why I calculate final at bottling day with northern brewers calculator to convert to alcohol. I pitch at 69 it spikes a bit over 70 at take off (never higher than 74 and only briefly) and then maintains at 68 until I prime. I will soon be experimenting on starters but since I am double pitching smack packs that are bloating properly and taking off properly and are not old dates and the end result has no off flavors. According to beer smith my efficiencies are also good. I will break out the hydrometer and suffer the beer loss to determine if it is a refractometer issue but I doubt I would get yeast strain on 2 good smack packs with an 11 lb 10 oz grain bill. Maybe my notes are off since I didn't date every gravity check meticulously.

This calculator has been shown to be much more accurate than the one at Northern Brewer...http://seanterrill.com/2010/06/11/refractometer-estimates-of-final-gravity/

And you don't have to lose beer with a hydrometer sample. In fact, I take a 12 oz. hydrometer sample. After I get a reading, I pout it in a 20 oz. PET bottle. I put a carbonator cap on it and hit it with 30 psi. 45 min. in the freezer and I've got a cold, carbed sample.

 

[Denny]

Don't know if mine do or not, just read that some do.

I'd have to say that if that happens, the beer wasn't done fermenting when you bottled it.