MrShake's Magic Brewhaus or Top Hat Brewery

[MrShake]

UPDATE - Added Pics to First Post - UPDATE

Ok, I've made the decision.... its time to upgrade my brewing setup to ease the efforts of an all grain brew day.

What I have decided on (at the moment) is a single tier, all electric HERMS. The one wrench in the plan is that I want to have the option to take this single tier out to a brew club event and use propane to fire the boil kettle. In the garage (normal brew location) I want to use a 120v element for the HLT/HEX and a 220v element for the boil kettle.

I have now scrapped the idea of this rig being ultra portable. A generator on site is really the only option... for now.

As well, I intend to use the BrewTroller and BrewTroller Remote projects for control in lieu of PIDS. I don't necessarily intent to automate the entire process, at least not all the time. But I'd like to get to a point of fill/push/go for each step at least.

I'm going to try sketchup for the first time in an effort to model this puppy. And as another first, I'm intending to learn to weld while making the frame.

I'll use this space as a log/journal, and try to remember to take pictures. This will not be a quick project, as I have to do this on a budget, but thats not unusual.

Here is an In-Progress Pics:

I'll update this pic with a current progress snapshot as I make updates.

I would like to seek your guy's wisdom regarding the Hybrid Boil Kettle.
90% of the time it will be a full electric kettle, no heat, easy peasy. The problem comes, when I want to run propane instead. I don't see a situation where I want to run both, so thats not an issue.

So, question is... how best to protect the element from the heat. Ideas for a potentially removable element.... or is there something that could be used to effectively insulate the connections from the burner?

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

I've never actually looked at an electric kettle, although I'm wanting to build one myself. Is there a reason you can't just keep the cord out of the way and fire it over the burner without removing the element? The element itself, and the material used to mount it on the keg, should be able to withstand heat. The only thing I would be worried about at that point is the power cord for the heater.

 

[GreenMonti]

Weld in a 2" sanitary fitting on the keg. Mod a blank to house the heating element. When going to propane you can easily remove the element and place another blank in its place. Put the element on a plug so it can just be removed.

 

[New-B-Brewer]

Somewhere on here a few weeks ago I saw a post about a "heat stick". Basically it was a heating element attached to a piece of pvc that you hang on the side of keggle. This might work since its not actually attached to the keggle you just leave it behind when you head to the club brew.

 

[MrShake]

While I like the idea of a heat stick, that seems backwards, since most of the brewing (90%) will be using the electric element. Seems to me that that would need to be more robust than the heat stick situation.

GreenMonti, you wanna come to IL and weld in that 2" fitting? hahaha

 

[MrShake]

So I tried installing Sketchup using wine in my Ubuntu environment, that didn't work out so well. I also tried a couple of linux compatable software options and found them to be intimidating. I guess I'll have to boot to vista to get a 3d rendering... doh

 

[MrShake]

Here is my first draft sketch. This is water/worth path only... Done in visio (all I have at work)

 

[GreenMonti]

GreenMonti, you wanna come to IL and weld in that 2" fitting? hahaha

Cheers.

 

[MrShake]

Cheers.

I'll take that as a yes... hahaah!!!


On a different note. I see MANY single-tier setups using 2 pumps. Is there specific reason for this that I'm missing?

 

[cruelkix]

I'll take that as a yes... hahaah!!!


On a different note. I see MANY single-tier setups using 2 pumps. Is there specific reason for this that I'm missing?

It's nothing major. It's a conviniece thing. i.e. If you are sparging you can continue to pump to the BK. One willl work. 2 is better. It depends on if you can justify the extra $120. I know I can. Think about doing two brews at once. You start your next mash. What are you going to use to move the finished product from the BK while your mash is recirculating through your HEX? You could use gravity I guess. Lots of other uses.

Also if you want to propane fire your kettle, the only thing you have to do is plug the holes that the electric element left when you took it out. You hsould be able to come up with a weldless oring set up that would work if you arent going the sanitary route that greenmonti suggested. I have an electric BK and I would def not recommend buting heat form the propane on it until that element is out of there. Also remove any insulation you have placed on it.

Good luck!

 

[MadWeezel]

You know you could just do all electric and buy a portable generator...

 

[MrShake]

You know you could just do all electric and buy a portable generator...

Hrm.... I kinda like that idea. Can you get a generator that will supply 220 and 110 for reasonable?

 

[MrShake]

It's nothing major. It's a conviniece thing. i.e. If you are sparging you can continue to pump to the BK. One willl work. 2 is better. It depends on if you can justify the extra $120. I know I can. Think about doing two brews at once. You start your next mash. What are you going to use to move the finished product from the BK while your mash is recirculating through your HEX? You could use gravity I guess. Lots of other uses.

Also if you want to propane fire your kettle, the only thing you have to do is plug the holes that the electric element left when you took it out. You hsould be able to come up with a weldless oring set up that would work if you arent going the sanitary route that greenmonti suggested. I have an electric BK and I would def not recommend buting heat form the propane on it until that element is out of there. Also remove any insulation you have placed on it.

Good luck!

I hadn't considered a 2nd batch..... thats a great idea!!! I guess I better find an extra 130ish bucks.

 

[MadWeezel]

Depends on what your definition of reasonable is.. $800 - $1200. What kind of wattage are we talking about? a 5kW will run around 800, 6.5 ~$1200.

Plus if your power ever goes out its nice to know you can still brew

 

[beerocd]

$50 solution. 4th keg (standby BK) for Propane. Can also be a fermenter in the mean time.

-OCD

 

[MrShake]

$50 solution. 4th keg (standby BK) for Propane. Can also be a fermenter in the mean time.

-OCD

THAT may be the best solution evar!!! Not even a $50 dollar solution. I find 3 or 4 kegs after the college kids move out every year!

 

[MrShake]

Depends on what your definition of reasonable is.. $800 - $1200. What kind of wattage are we talking about? a 5kW will run around 800, 6.5 ~$1200.

Plus if your power ever goes out its nice to know you can still brew

Well.... lets see, the 220volt element is 5500 watts and the 110volt element will be 1500 or 2000 watts....

$1200 is more than I'm going to spend on the entire setup (I hope). though Rental is a posibility for a generator.

 

[MrShake]

So I've been working on the initial parts list to get an idea of cost here..... Here's a capture of what I have currently. Its got a stainless only vs brass/copper use on it

 

[cruelkix]

So I've been working on the initial parts list to get an idea of cost here..... Here's a capture of what I have currently. Its got a stainless only vs brass/copper use on it

Don't forget your 15% contingency. Ya know, f$%K ups, forgot stuff, changes to your design. I have no idea my rig cost me and I dont want to know. I've thrown away at least $100 worth of stuff do to mistakes or breaks. Let alone the cost of tools I didn't have. I live by the fact that it will never be as cheap as you estimate it to be. But there is always the chance/very high probability that I am very bad with money!



EDIT: IF you buy the complete temp probe from derrin you dont need the probe ends. Also dont forget oyu are going to need all sorts of wire.

 

[MrShake]

Don't forget your 15% contingency. Ya know, f$%K ups, forgot stuff, changes to your design. I have no idea my rig cost me and I dont want to know. I've thrown away at least $100 worth of stuff do to mistakes or breaks. Let alone the cost of tools I didn't have. I live by the fact that it will never be as cheap as you estimate it to be. But there is always the chance/very high probability that I am very bad with money!



EDIT: IF you buy the complete temp probe from derrin you dont need the probe ends. Also dont forget oyu are going to need all sorts of wire.

I try to never count tool costs in stuff like this.... cuz I can usually convince SWMBO of the need for a new tool... hahaha

 

[MadWeezel]

Save your self $30 March pump on ebay for $108 shipped:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220528436508

 

[MrShake]

Save your self $30 March pump on ebay for $108 shipped:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220528436508

Nice!!! If the kegerator I have for sale sells tonight, I'll be ordering that puppy!

 

[MrShake]

Well... its official... they project has begun.

I have made the first purchase... nothing earth shatttering, but I have ordered the LCD for the brewtroller (brewtroller.com is out of them, and their forums suggested another vendor).

Here is where I purchased the LCD:

http://411techsystems.com/html/dm2004abb6ntdw.html

I did a little free-lance job last night, so I'll get the brewtroller itself once that money is deposited. And, hopefully, the guy who wants my keggerator will come by this afternoon!

 

[MrShake]

Its been a good christmas!! Brewtroller is ordered... I can't wait to get it and start playing around!!

 

[MrShake]

Quick update....

LCD and Powersupply for the BrewTroller are in. Still waiting on the BrewTroller itself and the 2 temp probes, then I can start initial testing and start modifying keggles.

 

[MrShake]

Update:

Brewtroller is in, now waiting on temp probes and misc connection parts to do the initial testing build of the brewtroller

Next on the list, and containing a question is this:

HLT Element:
http://www.amazon.com/Camco-02203-2000-Watt-120-Volt-Element/dp/B0006JLVBW
BK Element:
http://www.amazon.com/Camco-02963-5500W-240V-Element/dp/B000BPG4LI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1262634018&sr=8-1-fkmr1
HLT SSR:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-Solid-State-Relay-SSR-3-32VDC-24-440V-AC-20A_W0QQitemZ200267149621QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea0da3135
BK SSR:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-24-480V-AC-40A-Heat-Sink_W0QQitemZ180445671309QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a03666f8d


Questions are:

Is this enough element for the HLT?
Is this a good SSR for the BK?
Is there a better option for the HLT SSR?
I'd need a heat sink for the HLT SSR... cheaper just to get 2 of the bigger?

SSRs and Elements are next on the ordering list... I figure with those and a march pump, I can actually brew using what I have, and then continue to build around it.

 

[cruelkix]

Update:

Brewtroller is in, now waiting on temp probes and misc connection parts to do the initial testing build of the brewtroller

Next on the list, and containing a question is this:

HLT Element:
http://www.amazon.com/Camco-02203-2000-Watt-120-Volt-Element/dp/B0006JLVBW
BK Element:
http://www.amazon.com/Camco-02963-5500W-240V-Element/dp/B000BPG4LI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1262634018&sr=8-1-fkmr1
HLT SSR:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-Solid-State-Relay-SSR-3-32VDC-24-440V-AC-20A_W0QQitemZ200267149621QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea0da3135
BK SSR:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-24-480V-AC-40A-Heat-Sink_W0QQitemZ180445671309QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a03666f8d


Questions are:

Is this enough element for the HLT? I'm using a 3800 watt 240v heating element for my HLT. I think the 2000 watt might be a littel under powdered to get your heat up for mashouts and what not in a respectable time. You can do the math on it and find out tho.... Gut suggestion, go bigger if you can.
Is this a good SSR for the BK? I got these guys for me SSRShttp://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&productId=176719&catalogId=10001&freeText=176719&app.products.maxperpage=15&storeId=10001&search_type=jamecoall&ddkey=http:StoreCatalogDrillDownView
Is there a better option for the HLT SSR? Same as the last question
I'd need a heat sink for the HLT SSR... cheaper just to get 2 of the bigger? I don't have heat sinks for mine yet as I have installed them into a metal case and the case is acting as a heatsink. It is winter here so I havent had any issues yet. I may need to do some sort of coolio in the summer but I am not sure yet.
SSRs and Elements are next on the ordering list... I figure with those and a march pump, I can actually brew using what I have, and then continue to build around it.

They may not be perfect answers but see above in blue. HTH

-Craig

 

[MrShake]

I'm hesitant to jump to a 220volt element for the HLT as that would be 2 220 elements to run, potentially at the same time... thats a BIG investment in power in the garage.

 

[cruelkix]

I'm hesitant to jump to a 220volt element for the HLT as that would be 2 220 elements to run, potentially at the same time... thats a BIG investment in power in the garage.

I can understand that. I already had the 50A 240V breaker in my garage, so I was lucky. 5500w + 3800w = 38.75 Amps. Works for me. In a few weeks I should be able to give you some real world data on how the 3800w element did with ramp up times if you can wait that long .....

 

[MrShake]

I'm going to be running a circuit to the garage so I can put in what I want, but if I went with 2 5500w elements... that would @ 50amps without any overhead... I'd really need a 60 or 70amp circuit... and while I have 200amp service, thats a lot to devote to brewing.

Hrm.... I know there are some other posts about never needing to use both elements at the same time.