Mosaic "Imperial" Black IPA Suggestions

[brinson44]

First time posting, so I hope I don't do anything here to get kicked out!

I'm trying to put together a recipe for a single-hop Mosaic Black IPA maxed out on both the hop flavor/aroma and alcohol content. Below is what I have so far. I'd greatly appreciate any comments and/or suggestions! Thanks!

Boil Size: 6.53 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.99 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 4.60 gal
Estimated OG: 1.106 SG
Estimated Color: 22.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 29.3 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 82.8 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
19 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 93.8 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 2 3.7 %
4.0 oz Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (415.0 SRM Grain 3 1.2 %
4.0 oz Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (470.0 SR Grain 4 1.2 %
2.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - First Wort Hop 5 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 15.0 m Hop 6 13.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 5.0 mi Hop 7 5.5 IBUs
1.50 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirl Hop 8 10.2 IBUs
4.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Hop 9 0.0 IBUs

 

[rippajak]

Your choice of grains looks good. You kept it simple. Simple is good. And I do love me some Mosaic.

With your gravity up that high, I would say your beer would hold up to a heavier whirlpool addition. I've had good results using 3-4 oz in a hopstand for standard strength IPAs. At 1.106, the sky is really the limit if you want big, "maxed out" hop flavor.

I would also recommend going a little darker than 22.7 SRM if you want a truly "black" black IPA.

 

[brinson44]

Thanks for the reply!

How about cranking up the Carafa III to 12oz (3.6%) and the Carafa II to 8oz (2.4%)? That puts the SRM up to 37.9.

Also considering upping the first wort hops to 3oz and the flameout hops to 3oz as well.

Thoughts?

 

[rippajak]

That's the color range I would target for a black IPA.

As far as hops go, 2 oz of Mosaic for bittering has got to put you pretty close to the 100 IBU saturation mark, and then you're just boiling off aroma and flavor. You'll get more use out of that extra ounce at flame out, IMO.

Can't wait to hear how this one turns out!

 

[bulldogbrewhaus]

You could consider using some Midnight Wheat from Breiss. Its dark as night (like 550L iirc) and imparts very little roast flavor. I think Firestone uses that in Wookey Jack. Love me some mosaic though.

 

[brinson44]

I had seen that most recipes I found used the Carafa, but the more I read the more Midnight Wheat looks like the way to go, or at least some kind of combination. Appears to be smoother and less astringent, as well as darker.

Rippajak, taking your advice and dropping the 60min hops to 1.5oz or maybe even less. Not sure how the Mosaic would do as bittering hops anyway at such an amount like 3oz. Might bump the flameout to 4oz, too.

 

[brinson44]

This is what I have now. I made the hop changes as listed above and took out the Carafa III Special and replaced it with Midnight Wheat.

19 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 88.6 %
13.6 oz Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (415.0 SRM Grain 2 4.0 %
13.6 oz Midnight Wheat (550.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.0 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.5 %
1.50 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - First Wort Hop 5 43.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 15.0 m Hop 6 13.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 5.0 mi Hop 7 5.2 IBUs
4.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirl Hop 8 26.0 IBUs
4.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Hop 9 0.0 IBUs

 

[rippajak]

Hmmm.... I guess I overestimated the IBU contribution from 2 oz at 60 minutes. This is why I let a computer do my beer math for me. You might want to bring it up a bit. Or maybe not. It partly depends on how you calculate IBU's from you whirlpool hops. I personally ignore them altogether, but that's not necessarily the right answer. Or maybe you should ignore me altogether. I'm clearly rambling.

What yeast do you plan to ferment with?

 

[brinson44]

I was planning on ignoring the IBU's in the whirlpool as you mentioned that you do. I think the 1.5oz at 60min should be ok. I've gotten a little timid with the Mosaic hops for bittering since I know that's not exactly their usual intended use.

As for yeast, I just figured I'd go with SafAle US-05. Though I'm open to suggestion there as well.

 

[brinson44]

Any other thoughts or suggestions? Looking to brew very soon.

 

[rippajak]

Any updates, brinson? I'm curious to hear how it worked out for you.

 

[brinson44]

I actually bottled last week. Brewed three weeks ago. Was a heck of a day. Did I mention this was my first all grain brew AND the first recipe I made??

Forgot to attach the silicon tube from my false bottom to the ball valve on my mashtun. Had to drain it. Reach into hot grain, burn my hand, attach the tube, pour wort back, and drain again.

Followed everything else from the recipe above. Mashed the dark grains the whole time even though I read that a lot of people add them late.

Don't know my efficiency or anything like that. Forgot to add whirlfloc. Had a crappy whirlpool. TONS of trub in the fermenter. OG cooled after boil was 1.088. FG was 1.018. Dry hopped for three days. Everything stayed in primary until bottling.

Managed 40 bottles. Even though it's early, going to try one tomorrow after just one full week.

LOTS to improve upon for next time. Appreciate you checking in!

 

[dmenace86]

I wouldn't worry about all the trub in the fermenter. I've read here, and elsewhere, that there really is no effect either way. I try to keep most out, but don't get too worked up about it. Especially after having a brew day like the one you did! Recipe sounds good though. Please keep us posted on how it came out.

 

[Queequeg]

+1 midnight wheat. It great for "black" styles. It as just the subtlest smooth roast character.

I used half a pound in a black saision and only got a very gentle roast quality.

 

[brinson44]

*Update*

Tried one last night and was blown away!! Only a week in the bottle and it seemed nearly fully carbonated. On top of that, it was actually pretty dang good.

Highlights - The AROMA! This was the best part. The dry hops packed every bit of the punch I hopes, amazing. The Roast. Juuuuussssst enough to notice. Just the way I wanted. The dryness. Every batch I've ever done (all extract and from kits to his point) have been way too full-bodied and creamy in the mouthfeel. This one is super dry and on point.

It was a little rough and harsh on the edges, but I'm expecting this to mellow as it continues to prime and age some. Just have to find the sweet spot on aging so I don't lose too much hop aroma. I also think I may have measured the alcohol content poorly. Seemed a bit boozy and my be higher than the 9.2 I got from my hydrometer.

Now, to figure out how to tweak it for next time and continue to improve because this recipe will be one I repeat on a regular basis.

 

[dmenace86]

Sounds awesome! Any pics? I'm thinking this is gonna be one of my next brews. Sounds like you nailed your first AG, and you came out swinging right at the big guys too! That boozy taste your getting could just be from it being green. Perhaps it will all smooth out, and meld together with a little aging. Like you said though, don't wanna lose that hoppy aroma goodness!

 

[oylerck]

*Update*

Tried one last night and was blown away!! Only a week in the bottle and it seemed nearly fully carbonated. On top of that, it was actually pretty dang good.

Highlights - The AROMA! This was the best part. The dry hops packed every bit of the punch I hopes, amazing. The Roast. Juuuuussssst enough to notice. Just the way I wanted. The dryness. Every batch I've ever done (all extract and from kits to his point) have been way too full-bodied and creamy in the mouthfeel. This one is super dry and on point.

It was a little rough and harsh on the edges, but I'm expecting this to mellow as it continues to prime and age some. Just have to find the sweet spot on aging so I don't lose too much hop aroma. I also think I may have measured the alcohol content poorly. Seemed a bit boozy and my be higher than the 9.2 I got from my hydrometer.

Now, to figure out how to tweak it for next time and continue to improve because this recipe will be one I repeat on a regular basis.

The 2 black rye IPAs I have both had midnight wheat, I'm glad you went with that suggestion.

 

[brinson44]

Not the best photos, but I'll try to get some more next week when I try it again.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1492680727.800400.jpg

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1492680750.915152.jpg

 

[CrimsonYeti]

I know its a bit late but if you want the brew darker without adding more carafa,wheat or chocolate malt you can use black prinz. It only takes a couple ounces. it adds color at 500 srm and adds no flavor.


The recipe sounds great btw. I love the black ipas i make. Never occurred to me to use mosaic. Sounds tasty.

 

[dmenace86]

Nice looking beer! Do you think that the mosaic fits in well with the other flavors? I'm thinking when I do this I may use something else as my fwh, but keep the other additions the same. Then again, I've never used mosaic for anything other than late, so this could be an interesting experiment.

 

[brinson44]

Nice looking beer! Do you think that the mosaic fits in well with the other flavors? I'm thinking when I do this I may use something else as my fwh, but keep the other additions the same. Then again, I've never used mosaic for anything other than late, so this could be an interesting experiment.

Wasn't sure going into this, but I really do now. Somehow it just works. They're definitely not typical hops for this kind of beer but I'm really happy with how it turned out. Would be interesting to know how different it'd be if I just added them to the boil instead of FWH.

 

[oylerck]

Wasn't sure going into this, but I really do now. Somehow it just works. They're definitely not typical hops for this kind of beer but I'm really happy with how it turned out. Would be interesting to know how different it'd be if I just added them to the boil instead of FWH.

What temp did you mash at? I'm interested in doing this recipe myself. Mosaic in a black IPA sounds intriguing. What was your fg?

 

[brinson44]

FG was 1.018. Mashed at 149.

Had another today. Wasn't as blown away, but still good. The extra few days seemed to really help take the edge off from the last bottle.

 

[oylerck]

FG was 1.018. Mashed at 149.

Had another today. Wasn't as blown away, but still good. The extra few days seemed to really help take the edge off from the last bottle.

I'm sure after one bottle you were blown away. That's a hefty brew.

 

[brinson44]

Update....

Finally had one tonight after a more appropriate priming period.

Two notes: 1, it's a bit more roasted than I wanted. Not a ton, just a little. 2, it's creamier than I wanted. It's still pretty dry, but it's not crisp. Feels more like a porter or light stout in my mouth than an IPA.

What do I change/alter to improve these two aspects next time? Overall, I'm still satisfied with this recipe so I want to keep brewing it, especially so my son, its namesake, can actually try one when he's older.

 

[oylerck]

I've never tried but I'm assuming the wheat is your culprit. Can you back it down without losing color? Or try steeping it to get less flavor?

 

[brinson44]

Yeah that's what I'm assuming. I read a lot about people steeping it but I was under the impression it wasn't supposed to impart those flavors in the first place. Maybe more Carafa instead next time?

 

[oylerck]

Yeah that's what I'm assuming. I read a lot about people steeping it but I was under the impression it wasn't supposed to impart those flavors in the first place. Maybe more Carafa instead next time?

All the black IPAs I've consumed had midnight wheat. You can try it and let me know. I would like to try your recipe.

 

[brinson44]

Working on an updated recipe to enter a local homebrew competition. I want this one to be a little less "black", "drier" (for lack of better word; the last one batch was too creamy), and crisp-er (just making up words at this point).

This is what I have so far for a smaller 3.75 gallon batch:

11 lbs 9.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 89.8 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 2 3.9 %
7.0 oz Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (415.0 SRM Grain 3 3.4 %
6.0 oz Midnight Wheat (550.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.9 %
1.10 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - First Wort Hop 5 49.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 15.0 m Hop 6 10.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 5.0 mi Hop 7 4.0 IBUs
3.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirl Hop 8 30.1 IBUs
2.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 9 -
3.00 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Hop 10 0.0 IBUs

Mash for 75min at 148.

Thanks for all of your help!

 

[brinson44]

No other ideas? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[oylerck]

For big beers, sometimes cane sugar is added in place of malt to dry out the mouthfeel. Maybe take out something like c60 and try that in its place? I don't drink much but pale colored beers but that is where I would start. That would help lower your fg as well.

I've done at most 2.5 pounds in a 5 gallon tripel, so I know you can go that high but I wouldn't imagine that's necessary.

 

[oylerck]

So I took the 5 gallon recipe in beer smith(already had it saved) and deleted the c60 and dropped both wheat and carafa to .5 lb.

The color is still in the range for black ipa at 32.7srm and the og is 1.104 so not much different. It dropped the fg by a point to 1.017.

However.... if you drop the 2row to 17.5 pounds and add a point of sugar in the last 5? Minutes and follow everything else above you will stay at 1.105 with a fg of 1.014 (which is closer to what you are looking for) I would assume your roast flavor would mellow down do to decrease in dark malts. Not 100% of that with the addition of sugar though.

So my idea:

2 row 89.7%
Carafa II 2.6%
Midnight wheat 2.6%
Cane sugar 5.1%

Let me know what you think... and I am not responsible for any failure in this recipe.

 

[brinson44]

I've never used sugar before, but I'm intrigued. I'm not too worried about fg so that's definitely something to consider. I just don't want any kind of creaminess whatsoever. Thanks for some feedback. I have to brew soon to get this thing ready for the competition.

 

[brinson44]

Also, why cane sugar instead of corn sugar?

 

[oylerck]

Also, why cane sugar instead of corn sugar?

It's cheaper. Basically that's it. There are people that say cane sugars adds a cidery taste, but honestly I have never tasted it. Plus, Pliny the elder uses cane sugar to thin out there beer. If it's good for them it's good for me.

 

[brinson44]

One more thing, I assume you meant last five minutes of the boil for the sugar addition? And the more I've read tonight, the more I really feel like ditching the crystal.

 

[oylerck]

Yeah, the sugar will brown and get a flavor to it if you add it too early. You want it as clean tasting as possible(probably).