More hops = less hoppy taste?

[SMOKEU]

My standard pale ale recipe hop schedule is to buy 2x 100g (3.5oz) bags, and then split it evenly between 10 min, whirlpool, and dry hop additions. That makes for a nice, tasty fairly hoppy beer. I usually aim for around 40 IBUs, and then get the rest of the bitterness with a 60 minute addition of Green Bullet hops.

However, when I double all the hop additions (and maybe aim for 60 IBUs), I get something that just doesn't taste that good. It doesn't taste as fresh or "hoppy" and seems to taste "muddy".

Now, I have not done back-to-back comparisons with the same grain bill, yeast, water profile, and then just increase the hops, but these are just observations.

Unfortunately I do bottle condition, but I try my best to avoid O2 exposure after pitching yeast. The water here is quite soft and I use calcium chloride and calcium sulfate to build up the water profile to around 200ppm sulfate. Here's my water report Water quality and monitoring

It's not just my taste buds either as I'm a real hop head and love 100 IBU double IPAs (when they're done properly!), but all I'm aiming for is a nice drinkable 5-6% ABV pale ale.

 

[rhys333]

I'm wondering if it could be one of two things. First, if this was a one-off experience, maybe you got a bad batch of hops. Second, maybe you're becoming desensitized to the hops? You're definitely on the upper end of hopping rates. I usually go with 3-4 oz max on a 5 gallon pale ale, but I tend to lean more on malt complexity rather than hops.

 

[SMOKEU]

I've had this issue several times now so I think it's unlikely it was due to bad hops.

I've made at least 4 batches of each kind so it's fairly consistent.

I've brewed a few "clone" recipes of some of my favourite hoppy commercial ales like Behemoth Chur and Epic Pale Ale. Both times they really didn't taste that nice.

It's just strange that when I use half the hops I get more hop flavour coming through. When I say "hop flavour" I mean it tastes more like a nice commercial example, yet the higher hop ones always have that "bad homebrew" taste. It's really hard to explain.

 

[rhys333]

I've had this issue several times now so I think it's unlikely it was due to bad hops.

I've made at least 4 batches of each kind so it's fairly consistent.

I've brewed a few "clone" recipes of some of my favourite hoppy commercial ales like Behemoth Chur and Epic Pale Ale. Both times they really didn't taste that nice.

It's just strange that when I use half the hops I get more hop flavour coming through. When I say "hop flavour" I mean it tastes more like a nice commercial example, yet the higher hop ones always have that "bad homebrew" taste. It's really hard to explain.

Like an astringent aftertaste that overwhelms the hops?

 

[rhys333]

And a silly question, but when you double the hops are you also accounting for the extra bitterness with your hopping schedule? Aside from IBUs, you may well be getting astringency and that grassy off-flavor that sometimes accompanies higher hopping rates.

 

[SMOKEU]

Like an astringent aftertaste that overwhelms the hops?

I'm terrible at describing this, but yes, I think it could be an astringent taste. I really wish I could describe the taste better.

And a silly question, but when you double the hops are you also accounting for the extra bitterness with your hopping schedule? Aside from IBUs, you may well be getting astringency and that grassy off-flavor that sometimes accompanies higher hopping rates.

I didn't really consider anything else other than IBUs...

I wonder if it has something to do with the dry hopping only, or a combination of the big whirlpool + dry hop additions (my own recipes always have identical whirlpool + dry hop additions).

 

[jerrylotto]

Instead of doubling the amount of hop additions, keep the amounts the same but use more additions. Try two whirlpool additions 10 min apart and two dry hop additions a week apart. Of course you want to clarify the wort for cooling but it should be okay to "stack" the dry hop additions at 2 weeks and 3 weeks out. Then bottle at 4 week. And of course, exclude oxygen like it was poison!

 

[BreeBrew]

If I read this well and if it is a 5 gallon(19 liter) batch and you doubled the dry hop addition to 200grams you'll have 10.53 grams per liter, while I read in an article that more then 8gr per liter isn't going to give you more hop flavour but you will get a more tea/herbal flavour. If you dryhop 100 grams you have 5.26 grams per liter in a 19 liter batch which is more in line with the dry hop saturation point of 8 grams per liter according to an article I read from Dr. Shellhammer.

Quote from that article:
" Adding more hops by static dry-hopping does not simply lead to increased aroma intensity but also changes aroma quality in the finished beer. Dry-hopping rates >8 g/L lead to hop aromas that were more herbal/tea in quality than citrus. To maintain a more balanced hop aroma quality this study suggests using a static dry-hopping rate between 4 and 8 g/L."

Link to that article: Click here

 

[1HW]

Quote from that article:
" Adding more hops by static dry-hopping does not simply lead to increased aroma intensity but also changes aroma quality in the finished beer. Dry-hopping rates >8 g/L lead to hop aromas that were more herbal/tea in quality than citrus. To maintain a more balanced hop aroma quality this study suggests using a static dry-hopping rate between 4 and 8 g/L."

Link to that article: Click here

Nice find. Useful info for all hopheads.

 

[SMOKEU]

Instead of doubling the amount of hop additions, keep the amounts the same but use more additions. Try two whirlpool additions 10 min apart and two dry hop additions a week apart. Of course you want to clarify the wort for cooling but it should be okay to "stack" the dry hop additions at 2 weeks and 3 weeks out. Then bottle at 4 week. And of course, exclude oxygen like it was poison!

Good point about the extra additions, especially in the whirlpool. I do get a bit nervous about leaving beer on the dry hops for more than a week as I've read about the potential for grassiness/vegetal off flavours. In saying that I have left beer on the hops for 12 days when I was too lazy/busy to bottle and it was fine.

If I read this well and if it is a 5 gallon(19 liter) batch and you doubled the dry hop addition to 200grams you'll have 10.53 grams per liter, while I read in an article that more then 8gr per liter isn't going to give you more hop flavour but you will get a more tea/herbal flavour. If you dryhop 100 grams you have 5.26 grams per liter in a 19 liter batch which is more in line with the dry hop saturation point of 8 grams per liter according to an article I read from Dr. Shellhammer.

Quote from that article:
" Adding more hops by static dry-hopping does not simply lead to increased aroma intensity but also changes aroma quality in the finished beer. Dry-hopping rates >8 g/L lead to hop aromas that were more herbal/tea in quality than citrus. To maintain a more balanced hop aroma quality this study suggests using a static dry-hopping rate between 4 and 8 g/L."

Link to that article: Click here

That explains a lot. It's a good article!