More daft questions about yeast pitching and ferment temps - Ales and IPAs

[Nubiwan]

IN advance, I do search before posting questions, but sometimes, answers are not specific to your situation, and you end up meandering all over without getting your own answer. So here it is:

OK, so my ambient room temp in my basement is 62-64 degrees (17-18 C)

I mixed off a couple of 1.5KG extract kits last night. Nothing fancy! A Red Ale and an IPA. With both I am trying S-04 yeast in place of the generic yeast the kits came with. My fermentable was a mix of DME and Dextrose. Half and half. 1 KG total.

During the quasi boil process, I rehydrated a couple of my yeast packs as follows. I simply took some warm water from the kettle (my actual kettle - not my boil pot), and put it in a couple of cleaned mason jars. Its warm pre-boiled water, not boiling. No idea of the temp. I threw in the yeast packs, and I also added a teaspoon of dextrose to that. Because I read that sugar would help...... somewhere. Perhaps proof it!!!

The result was a brown foam built up inside my mason jars. From my grade 11 biology class, I took this as a good sign. It was going crazy foam by the time I pitched it (20 minutes later). In both jars. I simply poured it onto my wort(s) and gave it all a bit of a stir. Nothing vigorous.

I pitched at around 66-68 degrees. I have a mind that these temps were actually a lot lower, and that my pale temp thermometer had not adjusted yet, but 68 was highest it could have been.

My pales - less than 12 hours later both now read 62 degrees (17 C) and that is about room temp.

I trust this is within the working range of my yeast, which I read somewhere to be 59 degrees at the bottom end. I confirmed this at :

https://fermentis.com/en/fermentation-solutions/you-create-beer/safale-s-04/

I just put blow off tubes on my pales now, to avoid mess. There are no obvious bubbles yet, but any slight pressure on the lids and I get bubbles, so it appears there is action. Are my ferment temps (62) too low for an IPA and an Amber style?

Can someone here with a degree in home brewing let me know what I have done appears to be fine. Or do I need to turn in my brew pots, have my shoulder lapels removed, for complete and utter brewing ignorance?

Cheers All

 

[McKnuckle]

A few things:

Hopefully your warm water was truly just warm, perhaps under 100F. Warmer than that and you risk damaging yeast. Second, don't use sugars like dextrose when re-hydrating dry yeast. The goal of re-hydration is simply to allow the dried yeast cells to absorb water again and become viable, not to feed them.

Also, you don't want to feed them simple sugar like dextrose at this point. If they get used to eating simple sugar, they may be sluggish to ferment your wort. Think of it like eating your cake before dinner. Delicious perhaps, but spoils your appetite.

12 hours without a sign is not a concern. 18-24 is more typical to begin seeing visible fermentation signs, and it can take up to 72 hours (though in my experience that is rare). The yeast spend their first day metabolizing O2 and reproducing so they can go to town on your wort.

An ambient temp of 62 sounds great. The fermentation will likely start clean at that temperature, and then warm up a bit, perhaps to 65-68F depending on yeast strain, pitch rate, and lots of other factors.

 

[Soulshine2]

IN advance, I do search before posting questions, but sometimes, answers are not specific to your situation, and you end up meandering all over without getting your own answer. So here it is:

OK, so my ambient room temp in my basement is 62-64 degrees (17-18 C)

I mixed off a couple of 1.5KG extract kits last night. Nothing fancy! A Red Ale and an IPA. With both I am trying S-04 yeast in place of the generic yeast the kits came with. My fermentable was a mix of DME and Dextrose. Half and half. 1 KG total.

During the quasi boil process, I rehydrated a couple of my yeast packs as follows. I simply took some warm water from the kettle (my actual kettle - not my boil pot), and put it in a couple of cleaned mason jars. Its warm pre-boiled water, not boiling. No idea of the temp. I threw in the yeast packs, and I also added a teaspoon of dextrose to that. Because I read that sugar would help...... somewhere. Perhaps proof it!!!

The result was a brown foam built up inside my mason jars. From my grade 11 biology class, I took this as a good sign. It was going crazy foam by the time I pitched it (20 minutes later). In both jars. I simply poured it onto my wort(s) and gave it all a bit of a stir. Nothing vigorous.

I pitched at around 66-68 degrees. I have a mind that these temps were actually a lot lower, and that my pale temp thermometer had not adjusted yet, but 68 was highest it could have been.

My pales - less than 12 hours later both now read 62 degrees (17 C) and that is about room temp.

I trust this is within the working range of my yeast, which I read somewhere to be 59 degrees at the bottom end. I confirmed this at :

https://fermentis.com/en/fermentation-solutions/you-create-beer/safale-s-04/

I just put blow off tubes on my pales now, to avoid mess. There are no obvious bubbles yet, but any slight pressure on the lids and I get bubbles, so it appears there is action. Are my ferment temps (62) too low for an IPA and an Amber style?

Can someone here with a degree in home brewing let me know what I have done appears to be fine. Or do I need to turn in my brew pots, have my shoulder lapels removed, for complete and utter brewing ignorance?

Cheers All

First of all, I see you just came in in Dec 2018, welcome to the forum.
Second, "No idea of the temp"
one of your most basic tools should be a good thermometer so you can tell the exact temperature and know your yeast is in its optimal working range.
How recent did you pitch? You should see obvious yeast action once it gets going, I call it a "yeast-nado" going on in my carboy. Its fascinating to watch. You should see something significant within as little as 12 but more like 24 hrs . Take good brew notes as you go.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

My understanding is that yeast manufacturers have been moving their recommendation away from hydrating to just pitching the yeast to your wort (the Fermentis S-04 pack in front of me says "Sprinkle into wort"). I think the reason is that they find that most people do more harm than good when rehydrating and reducing a step where people can harm the yeast or introduce infection makes for better beer.

I recently brewed an Oatmeal Stout with a packet of S-04 that I had purchased 2 years earlier and it was 1 year past the "best before" date...sprinkled it on my aerated wort and had strong fermentation by the next morning.

 

[Soulshine2]

dry yeast has a long shelf life. I used one that was actually 9 yrs old,It was a Muntons . Only reason I made a starter with it is because of the age. 30 minutes in , had a 3 inch thick kraeusen in the jar. Made a "high octane" American honey brown ale

 

[Nubiwan]

Thanks for all the kind replies.

As an update. Both my ale pales are connected with blow offs, and are happily chugging away at present. Nothing volcanic, but I find blow offs are less eruptive than an air lock once a primary gets moving. Certainly less messy than a frothed up air lock.

I haven't read anywhere that 'proofing' yeast will inhibit performance. Any literature on that?

For those who might be interested, My Morgans Canadian IPA took off a little earlier, and I suspect this due to me getting a better mixing of the fermentables in the primary. My Muntons Red Ale fermentables had a few clumps, when I was mixing it in, so it was hard to tell if I broke it all down well enough.

IMHO, it is a silly instruction that comes with many of these kits to mix all wort, and fermentables at once, with hot water. Easier to dissolve the fermentables in hot water, with a large spoon or paddle, put it in the pale, then add the kit extract. That way you get good distribution of the sugars, and it appears this method kicked off quicker with the yeast. Just a theory. Does it make sense?

I did read up on yeast re-hydrating and some even suggest lukewarm water will get dry yeast going. I guess anything is better than simply throwing dry powder into a cooler wort. My entire reason for re-hydrating in the first place was that I read you lose some of the yeast when it is dry pitched into a cooler wort. This true?

Thanks again all.

 

[Nubiwan]

I found this thread on proofing yeast and there is a bit of back and forth as to the benefits and / or need to actually proof it. Proofing merely show it to be viable, and there is some dispute over damaging the cells.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/proofed-dry-yeast-with-sugar-is-this-a-problem.317924/

On reading most of that thread, next time, my yeast will get some warmed up kettle water, and then pitched to the wort. IMHO, I am simply giving more of my yeast a fighting chance of surviving the dry pitch into wetness.

Something phallic about those last few words.

 

[RM-MN]

I have read that direct pitching the dry yeast without rehydrating can kill up to 50% of the yeast. I have also read that it takes about 90 minutes for yeast to reproduce. It both of them are true, you have simply added 90 minutes to the lag time of the yeast, insignificant when one expects to see activity in 24 to 36 hours. I've quit rehydrating at all and my beers always ferment out to the expected range of FG.

 

[PocketWater]

If I remember correctly, How to Brew by John Palmer covers the “dessert before dinner” scenario McNuckle described, as well as a wealth of other valuable info.

 

[Nubiwan]

I have read that direct pitching the dry yeast without rehydrating can kill up to 50% of the yeast. I have also read that it takes about 90 minutes for yeast to reproduce. It both of them are true, you have simply added 90 minutes to the lag time of the yeast, insignificant when one expects to see activity in 24 to 36 hours. I've quit rehydrating at all and my beers always ferment out to the expected range of FG.

Purely anecdotal here but my two primaries (different ale typess) are bubbling away within 12 hours at similar pitch and wort temps as my previous 2 in December. Both of which showed little activity for at least 24 hours, if I remember right. Did me rehydrating the yeast account for that? I dunno? Its the only thing I did different, other then the fact it was S-04 yeast, and not the generic with the kits. I guess I'll have to brew more to find out.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

S-04 is my go to yeast for porter and stouts. I recently brewed a Porter with S-04 and had a solid krausen 4 hours after pitching a fresh pack of dry yeast sprinkled on the aerated wort. I make yeast starter for liquid yeast and I see a noticeable beneficial difference in initial fermentation (the recent pack of White Labs that I direct pitched because plans changed do I brewed a batch took a solid 24 hours to get started). I used to hydrate dried yeast, but I have not so in many years because I don't believe it makes a difference.

If you are into Brulosophy, here is there xBmt on this: http://brulosophy.com/2014/09/15/sprinkled-vs-rehydrated-dry-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Soulshine2]

Thanks for all the kind replies.

As an update. Both my ale pales are connected with blow offs, and are happily chugging away at present. Nothing volcanic, but I find blow offs are less eruptive than an air lock once a primary gets moving. Certainly less messy than a frothed up air lock.

I haven't read anywhere that 'proofing' yeast will inhibit performance. Any literature on that?

For those who might be interested, My Morgans Canadian IPA took off a little earlier, and I suspect this due to me getting a better mixing of the fermentables in the primary. My Muntons Red Ale fermentables had a few clumps, when I was mixing it in, so it was hard to tell if I broke it all down well enough.

IMHO, it is a silly instruction that comes with many of these kits to mix all wort, and fermentables at once, with hot water. Easier to dissolve the fermentables in hot water, with a large spoon or paddle, put it in the pale, then add the kit extract. That way you get good distribution of the sugars, and it appears this method kicked off quicker with the yeast. Just a theory. Does it make sense?

I did read up on yeast re-hydrating and some even suggest lukewarm water will get dry yeast going. I guess anything is better than simply throwing dry powder into a cooler wort. My entire reason for re-hydrating in the first place was that I read you lose some of the yeast when it is dry pitched into a cooler wort. This true?

Thanks again all.

i dont proof yeast as a habit . Dry yeast is made to directly pitch . It is basically dormant and comes with all the nutrient it needs to get going and you're providing the wort ...a world where yeast can eat to its little hearts content,if yeast have hearts...lol. . Aerate the wort first after you've made it pitching temperature. and with that simply trickling it into the carboy /fermenter so it makes a slight froth is all that is necessary. pitch and go. Ask the yeast company.

 

[Soulshine2]

I found this thread on proofing yeast and there is a bit of back and forth as to the benefits and / or need to actually proof it. Proofing merely show it to be viable, and there is some dispute over damaging the cells.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/proofed-dry-yeast-with-sugar-is-this-a-problem.317924/

On reading most of that thread, next time, my yeast will get some warmed up kettle water, and then pitched to the wort. IMHO, I am simply giving more of my yeast a fighting chance of surviving the dry pitch into wetness.

Something phallic about those last few words.

Dry yeast has the cell membranes full of sterols so they can reproduce for many generations. Dry yeast also has about 20 billion cells/gram so there are 220 billion cells in a fresh 11 gram pack vs 100 billion for liquid yeast. Not much need for a starter.
Also, at least one dry yeast manufacturer stresses that their yeast is dried in an optimal ready-to-go state that you shouldn't mess with.

 

[Soulshine2]

https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/pitching-dry-yeast-v-rehydrating.41868/

Heres my source for that last post. Feel free to read and make your own opinion.

 

[Nubiwan]

https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/pitching-dry-yeast-v-rehydrating.41868/

Heres my source for that last post. Feel free to read and make your own opinion.

Thanks for the link. From that thread I read this: The bolded bit, I found interesting. Wonder if it is true

this comes up quite a bit. the answers posted so far are spot on, so i will summarize.

the factual answer, if not always the practiced method, is that dry yeast should be rehydrated in blood warm water for 5 to 15 minutes before pitching. "proofing" dry yeast will result in a substantially larger colony at pitching. (pitching unhydrated yeast into wort needlessly, sadly and mercilessly kills perhaps 30% upon impact. don't be a yeast killer!)

a starter is not needed with dry yeast. it is not even required or recommeded. not by brewers or dry yeast producers.

liquid yeast is more delicate than dry yeast and requires special attention.

dry yeast has been dried with a full store of oxygen and is "ready to go".

dry yeast is relatively cheap. if you think you need more, buy another package.

lastly, it is worth mentioning that dry yeast has a best by date. stale or mistreated yeast is not worth the cost savings.

so, rehydrate two packages and pitch. sleep well.
Cheers.

 

[thehaze]

Fermentis, the manufacturer of S-04 and many other dry yeast strains, has already informed the world - last year - that their dry yeast do not need rehydration and little to no oxygenation of the wort is required. Theis is only for their own yeast. I can attest to that, as I've brewed tens of batches without rehydrating the yeast, and so have others. Actually, I never rehydrated yeast as I did not belive it was neccessasry. And it's not, just as Fermentis is saying.

You are not killing yeast cells by pitching dry. Do not make starters with dry yeast, as this is not needed, nor could I find any indication from Fementis and Lallemand, that this would be a practice that benefits the yeast. All yeast are delicate and must be treated properly to get the best results ouf of them, be it dry or liquid.

I also use Lallemand yeast and also pitch dry. No issues whatsoever, however to me it seems that Fermentis packs a bit more cells than Lallemand, but it's not something I have found proof towards.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

With manufactured products (dry yeast), it may be appropriate to be cautious about using older information that conflicts with current vendor production information sheets.

I'm aware that the book Yeast (2013) says (p 124) that "failure to rehydrate dry yeast properly will result in the death of approximately half the cells". There is, however, anecdotal evidence (2017) that this may no longer be true for some dry yeast strains.

'Basic science' doesn't change (and Yeast is still a good book), manufacturing processes do (and current product information sheets are useful).

 

[Homergah]

I would be more concerned about that s04 stalling before it reaches full expected attenuation. My experience has been that when pitched into a purely extract wort and fermented at low temps it falls out about 20 percent short.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I would be more concerned about that s04 stalling before it reaches full expected attenuation. My experience has been that when pitched into a purely extract wort and fermented at low temps it falls out about 20 percent short.

Can you offer more details? Fermentation temperature range? What where you measuring that came up "20 percent short"?

 

[Homergah]

Can you offer more details? Fermentation temperature range? What where you measuring that came up "20 percent short"?

Fermentation temp in low 60's. What was I measuring? Wort density-current density/wort density*100. 15-6.5/15=.5666×100=57% attenuation. That's low attenuation by a substantial amount. Bringing up temp and slight rousing can get the yeast to slowly finish.
Formula for sg readings is different of course. Don't remember it off the top of my head.
This thread is probably not the proper place to discuss it anyway. I'm sure there are already many threads discussing attenuation calcs. Sorry I got off topic.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Fermentation temp in low 60's. ... 57% attenuation. That's low attenuation by a substantial amount. Bringing up temp and slight rousing can get the yeast to slowly finish.

Thank you and interesting!

I've had a couple of discussions with pro craft brewers regarding dry yeast. For me, one of the take-aways from those discussions was a suggestion to anticipate that I needed to treat each (dry) yeast strain differently.

And, over time, I've found that I want to keep S-04 a little warmer (above 65). But with US-05, I'm not concerned about fermenting in the low 60s.

 

[Alex4mula]

I pitched dry s-04 & s-05 in my first two brews and both were nicely active within 20hrs. Having so many variables in brewing I would take one anecdotal experience with a grain of salt. Seems dry pitch works fine for most. These are my first brews ever so later on I would know if they attenuated properly.

 

[Homergah]

Thank you and interesting!

I've had a couple of discussions with pro craft brewers regarding dry yeast. For me, one of the take-aways from those discussions was a suggestion to anticipate that I needed to treat each (dry) yeast strain differently.

And, over time, I've found that I want to keep S-04 a little warmer (above 65). But with US-05, I'm not concerned about fermenting in the low 60s.

My reasoning on starting 04 so low is that it is insanely vigorous for the first 24 hours. I'm trying to keep it from rising too much in that early stage. Fermentor sits in chamber with air circulating around it with temp probe well insulated against carboy. If I start 04 at 66 degrees it will climb to low 70s quick. I don't care for the flavor when I allow that to happen. I think I'll stick to 05 and Windsor when using dry yeast in the future.

 

[balrog]

I've had better attenuation results with S04 by holding fermentation temp (typ 64F) until I see the "exotherm" happen -- heat generated by yeast during fermentation, then ramping temp up 8 degrees over 24 hours and holding there a couple days. Things finish without need of rousing/stirring, which had happened with porters in the past with this yeast at 64F.

 

[kevin58]

I see that several of the links people are sharing to prove their point are over 7 years old. Even quoting John Palmer's How to Brew gets iffy if you are referencing an older edition of the book. His 1st edition... the one that is now free online advocates secondary fermentation while in the newest edition he states he has changed his mind. Just be careful what you are quoting and be sure the information shared is up to date and matches current thinking. Otherwise old and irrelevant information keeps getting bandied about simply because someone has a link to "prove" their point which someone new will believe and they start sharing the samo samo.

 

[balrog]

Just be careful what you are quoting...old and irrelevant information keeps getting bandied about simply because someone has a link to "prove" their point...

I thought this was the whole point of having the internet?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

My reasoning on starting 04 so low is that it is insanely vigorous for the first 24 hours. I'm trying to keep it from rising too much in that early stage. Fermentor sits in chamber with air circulating around it with temp probe well insulated against carboy. If I start 04 at 66 degrees it will climb to low 70s quick. I don't care for the flavor when I allow that to happen. I think I'll stick to 05 and Windsor when using dry yeast in the future.

Techniques for fermentation temperature control definitely make a different in how each of us learn to make good use of yeast. When I brew smaller batches, I currently use a modified "swamp cooler" approach. With this approach, I don't see the quick climb in temperature that you mention - but I do see that quick climb in temperature if I try to ferment at ambient temperatures.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I’ve used S-04 twice and because I manually control fermentation temps with ice packs, I don’t use it now. The first time I used it, the yeast went crazy and heated my fermentation chamber up to above 80 degrees. I could definitely taste higher alcohols in that beer, but it wasn’t unpleasant. I saved one of those beers and after sitting in my fridge for 6 months, it was in the top ten of best beers that I’ve ever had. Anyway, after having that run away, the next time I used S-04, I was on it like a nanny, constantly checking temps and keeping it at the very low end of the temp range, 59 degrees on average. The beer turned out ok, but there was a peach flavor that was not unpleasant, but not something I would have put in there on purpose either.

Long story short, 62 degrees is a great ambient temp for S-04. When it is super active, the warmth that the active yeast creates won’t be too much. Then after 4 or 5 days and after it settles down, finishing out at around 68 degrees would be perfect.

Because I don’t have natural temps around my house to do this and the persnicketiness of S-04, I just won’t use it, but it sounds like it might be a great choice for the OP.

For the record, I use dry yeast for most of my beers. I have rehydrated and sprinkled probably about 50/50. When I’m using Danstar, I usually rehydrate because that is what they recommend. When I use Fermentis I usually sprinkle because they say that’s OK. Like a previous poster mentioned, I’m not sure how much difference there is between 100 billion and 200 billion cells, but whatever. I think your beer will probably be better than any you’ve had commercially. Enjoy!

 

[madscientist451]

To rehydrate or not rehydrate....that is the question.
whether 'tis nobler to carefully measure water temperature and follow directions
or suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous forum posts that object to just chucking it in the wort.
The fair Ophelia? (my latest homebrew creation ) Nymph, in thy Orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.

 

[Nubiwan]

For those following this s-04 thread. My primaries at 72 hours went from SG 1.044 to 1.020 in my IPA, and 1.040 to 1.018 in my red ale.

This somewhat correlates with a temp vs fermentation chart I looked up. The chart indicated that at 19 degrees C, SG readings would start to level out after 80-90 hours. When I say level out, I mean drop less quickly, not level out entirely, which actually never happened. Since I am at 16 c, I can probably expect another day or two before same happens.

My ambient temp is 62, and my primaries are 62. Activity in my pot, from the blow offs has significantly slowed.

Wondering if I should heat up my room to 68 to help them along, or is my progress fine. People must have kept accurate SG reading throughout fermentation to compare my results. Not easy to google them though.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Wondering if I should heat up my room to 68 to help them along

This is something that I have never done, until some recently. Palmer does advocate that at the point where yeast starts to slow down (and they are not generating much heat) you raise the temp to keep them going. He also talks about raising temps for a few days for a diacetyl rest, even for ales. Most of my brewing life I have just let the beer ferment in a cool basement for 2 weeks...though some places I lived did not have a basement.

Of my recent beers...I have an Oatmeal Stout that I kegged at day 6 and put in my beer fridge, and it is a good beer...I have a Porter that after 7 days in the fermenter, I moved it to a 70F room for 3 days then into the beer fridge, and it is a good beer...I have a Pale Ale that has been chugging along in my basement around 60F due to cold weather and furnace issues and I took a reading today and it is down to 1.010, below the projected 1.014. I am not sure I will ever really understand yeast.

 

[ncbrewer]

Wondering if I should heat up my room to 68 to help them along

Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff's Yeast book also recommends warming it up several degrees after fermentation is mostly done. I figure that's good advice, so I do it. It's never caused any problems, but I can't swear it helps either. I see it like chicken soup - it can't hurt.