Mold? Salvagable?

[NinjaMedic]

In two years on HBT and on reddit (which represents hundreds upon hundreds of "is this infected?" posts), this is literally the first time that I've seen mold in a short timeframe. Yeast usually starts major growth within 24 hours, and it chokes everything else out. OP, I know it dosn't feel like it since you are the owner of a spoiled batch, but this is pretty cool/unique.

Ha well I must say I understand what you mean. I'm a paramedic and work in the ER as well. So when you get that one in a million injury/illness you get all the students to come look. Not so fun for the patient though. In this case the brewer.

 

[Yooper]

I just got finish microbiology and trust me in the right conditions mold can grow at rapid rates. We have grown plenty of bacteria and molds overnight a bunch of times that flourish like crazy.

I've worked at a hospital for 31 years- yes, mold and other micro-organisms can grow at very rapid rates. Even a bacteria culture gets only 24 hours and then 48 hours to grow.

One of the things to remember about homebrewing is that we sanitize- not sterilize. Any yeast we pitch is normally enough to outcompete other microorganisms, if we pitch enough yeast. But when we underpitch, other microorganisms can outcompete the chosen yeast strain.

I know many people say "it's hard to ruin your beer! I dropped a screwdriver in mine and it's fine!". To that I can respond that if you looked under a microscope, many beers have a low level of infection. Wild yeast, mold spores, and bacteria are everywhere. That doesn't usually ruin a beer, but it's certainly possible to have contamination no matter how well you sanitize.

 

[BMClark2210]

I've worked at a hospital for 31 years- yes, mold and other micro-organisms can grow at very rapid rates. Even a bacteria culture gets only 24 hours and then 48 hours to grow.

One of the things to remember about homebrewing is that we sanitize- not sterilize. Any yeast we pitch is normally enough to outcompete other microorganisms, if we pitch enough yeast. But when we underpitch, other microorganisms can outcompete the chosen yeast strain.

I know many people say "it's hard to ruin your beer! I dropped a screwdriver in mine and it's fine!". To that I can respond that if you looked under a microscope, many beers have a low level of infection. Wild yeast, mold spores, and bacteria are everywhere. That doesn't usually ruin a beer, but it's certainly possible to have contamination no matter how well you sanitize.

Yes I do know the difference between sterilization (60 min boil) and sanitization (starsan) but what I didn't know was that the yeast can outcompete any low levels of microbes or vice versa. Good info and I was waiting for someone to agree with me lol. I'm going into the nursing program soon so I been doing all these fun classes lol

 

[Yooper]

Yes I do know the difference between sterilization (60 min boil) and sanitization (starsan) but what I didn't know was that the yeast can outcompete any low levels of microbes or vice versa. Good info and I was waiting for someone to agree with me lol. I'm going into the nursing program soon so I been doing all these fun classes lol

Well, they can't outcompete "any" low level of microbes- more like "many" low levels of microbes.

Even a 60 minute boil isn't complete sterilization- for that you need a pressure cooker or an autoclave.

But usually, sanitation is good enough. Except, or course, when it's not!

 

[BMClark2210]

Well, they can't outcompete "any" low level of microbes- more like "many" low levels of microbes.

Even a 60 minute boil isn't complete sterilization- for that you need a pressure cooker or an autoclave.

But usually, sanitation is good enough. Except, or course, when it's not!

Well actually I depends on the microbe, temperature, and time. The 60 min boil could be long enough for some but if they were thermophiles then obviously more extensive measure would need to be taken but unless we know what it is specifically then we really have no argument lol. Besides are we giving a micro lecture in how to sterilize medical equipment or the ways to insure minimal contamination in ones wort lol. What do u do in a hospital anyways?

 

[homebrewdad]

Yes, used an attachment at the end of the tubing into the fermentor that causes a spray.

For the record, this is not the best method of aeration. If I remember correctly, this yields somewhere between 4-6 PPM of oxygen dissolved. Shaking the heck out of the fermenter nets you 8 PPM of oxygen (same as you get with an aquarium pump).

Ideally, you'd like 10 or so PPM of oxygen, but to do that, you have to use pure O2.

Bottom line - in the future, shake your carboy/bucket/better bottle to get the best aeration you can witout the purchase of new gear. You'll get healthier yeast and better growth rates.

 

[hoppus]

Well actually I depends on the microbe, temperature, and time. The 60 min boil could be long enough for some but if they were thermophiles then obviously more extensive measure would need to be taken but unless we know what it is specifically then we really have no argument lol. Besides are we giving a micro lecture in how to sterilize medical equipment or the ways to insure minimal contamination in ones wort lol. What do u do in a hospital anyways?

There aren't degrees of sterilization. Either it's sterile or it's not. I believe that is what Yooper was referring to. In the hospitals and research labs that I've worked in, no equipment is considered sterile without being autoclaved, and no liquid is sterile unless it's been run through a .22um filter.

 

[blacklab]

Revvy come back! OP needs more of your 'advice'!

 

[homebrewdad]

Revvy come back! OP needs more of your 'advice'!

Did the OP ask for more advice? It's mold. Not much to do, since OP has an allergy.

 

[blacklab]

Did the OP ask for more advice? It's mold. Not much to do, since OP has an allergy.

Just hoping he can provide more clarity and insight into situation. More of a learning opportunity than anything.

 

[Packbacker2]

yum. Penicillium sp. The longer you let that go, the more sporulation is going to occur, hence the blue color in the center of the colonies.

 

[LandoLincoln]

The last beer blew over so I thought under pitching might solve that with this brew.

That's a bad idea. That's just going to cause more problems than it solves. Try using some fermcap drops to control krausen instead, or just use a blowoff tube.

 

[progmac]

the real lesson is the value of a clear, well-focused photograph

 

[freisste]

That's a bad idea. That's just going to cause more problems than it solves. Try using some fermcap drops to control krausen instead, or just use a blowoff tube.

Or ensure that you are controlling temperature to the low end. It will (generally) reduce the "severity" of a fermentation.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Just hoping he can provide more clarity and insight into situation. More of a learning opportunity than anything.

You're just trying to further insight an argument. Don't be a jacka$$. From what I know of Revvy, I'm sure the issue has been resolved in private.

 

[ericbw]

For the record, this is not the best method of aeration. If I remember correctly, this yields somewhere between 4-6 PPM of oxygen dissolved. Shaking the heck out of the fermenter nets you 8 PPM of oxygen (same as you get with an aquarium pump).

Ideally, you'd like 10 or so PPM of oxygen, but to do that, you have to use pure O2.

Bottom line - in the future, shake your carboy/bucket/better bottle to get the best aeration you can witout the purchase of new gear. You'll get healthier yeast and better growth rates.

Do you have to use an aeration stone with an aquarium pump (which adds to the cost)? What about getting bugs in the wort? Does the pump just suck air in or filter it? I know they make those inline filters, too. Again with the cost, though. Just curious.

 

[unionrdr]

Seems to me my aquarium air pumps did have a small filter in them. An inline filter might be a good idea. Don't wanna go too cheap.

 

[TheZymurgist]

I've never understood the point of an air filter. I know it's an added precaution, but when you look at the other methods of aeration, it doesn't make sense to me. Using the "shake-and-pray" method or attaching a paint stirrer to a drill aerates the wort with the same air that a pump would use, but there's no way to filter the air. I've used both methods, along with strict sanitation practices, and haven't had any issues. Is the fact that the air is traveling through a pump that can add contamination?

 

[progmac]

Is the fact that the air is traveling through a pump that can add contamination?

I think so, yes. I've used a piece of a cotton ball before. Cheap and effective. I think aerating with an aquarium pump is a waste of time, though.

 

[homebrewdad]

Do you have to use an aeration stone with an aquarium pump (which adds to the cost)? What about getting bugs in the wort? Does the pump just suck air in or filter it? I know they make those inline filters, too. Again with the cost, though. Just curious.

I personally don't see the point in using an aquarium pump. It takes something like five minutes of bubbling with a pump to achieve the same O2 saturation that you get with 60 seconds of shaking your fermenter. To me, you might as well shake it nicely (and get that max 8 PPM that you get from any method of adding air) until you decide to step up to pure O2.

 

[homebrewdad]

You're just trying to further insight an argument. Don't be a jacka$$. From what I know of Revvy, I'm sure the issue has been resolved in private.

That was my take on this, too. Revvy was wrong, it was mold. I was wrong, it was mold. Others who said not to worry were wrong... it was mold.

To me, the lesson is to be sure to be vigilant on sanitation, treat your yeast with care, and make sure to pitch enough total yeast!

 

[progmac]

That was my take on this, too. Revvy was wrong, it was mold. I was wrong, it was mold. Others who said not to worry were wrong... it was mold.

To me, the lesson is to be sure to be vigilant on sanitation, treat your yeast with care, and make sure to pitch enough total yeast!

that first picture was terrible. it was basically no different from not having a picture at all and someone saying, 'funny stuff is floating on my beer.'

on the other hand, maybe we should be a bit slower to jump to conclusions and ask for more data before suggesting something.

 

[ericbw]

that first picture was terrible. it was basically no different from not having a picture at all and someone saying, 'funny stuff is floating on my beer.'

on the other hand, maybe we should be a bit slower to jump to conclusions and ask for more data before suggesting something.

Even with the crappy pic, there was the info needed in the first few posts. It took a while for it to gel, but the original question was more like, "I have a batch of wort with NO live yeast in it, and it has been sitting for 4-6 days. There is something blue/green and fuzzy on top. Does this seem normal?"

Everyone would have then agreed that that is not normal.

Of course, someone would have asked, "Does it smell normal?" And he (or maybe his friend who is deathly allergic to mold) could have take a big whiff from the top of the carboy. The autopsy would later show conclusively that it was, in fact, mold.

I am all in favor of less jackassery, HOWEVER, there are some other lessons here (besides sanitize, etc.). Like don't assume that someone is being a worrier just because they ask about infections or mold or the crazy way a fermentation takes off. And don't respond with a cocky attitude about noobs. There are some on here that do it frequently, and it's not helpful.

Like Thumper's dad said, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say nothin' at all.

As rare as it might be (although from the hospital staff and microbiology student on this thread, it looks like it is less rare than everyone wants to believe), mold obviously grows and grows fast in wort. So the next time someone asks about "something funny is floating in my beer," don't dismiss it.

 

[PseudoChef]

That was my take on this, too. Revvy was wrong, it was mold. I was wrong, it was mold. Others who said not to worry were wrong... it was mold.

But there's a fundamental difference in the way you stated your opinions.

You were wrong, but you stated it in a well-worded, and friendly fashion.

While Revvy was wrong, he used his trademark ramble on paragraph diatribes with incessant capitalization demeaning the OP.

If he's wrong, that's fine, but there's no need for hostility in the wording toward the OP, IMO.

 

[Clonefan94]

Even with the crappy pic, there was the info needed in the first few posts. It took a while for it to gel, but the original question was more like, "I have a batch of wort with NO live yeast in it, and it has been sitting for 4-6 days. There is something blue/green and fuzzy on top. Does this seem normal?"

Everyone would have then agreed that that is not normal.

Of course, someone would have asked, "Does it smell normal?" And he (or maybe his friend who is deathly allergic to mold) could have take a big whiff from the top of the carboy. The autopsy would later show conclusively that it was, in fact, mold.

I am all in favor of less jackassery, HOWEVER, there are some other lessons here (besides sanitize, etc.). Like don't assume that someone is being a worrier just because they ask about infections or mold or the crazy way a fermentation takes off. And don't respond with a cocky attitude about noobs. There are some on here that do it frequently, and it's not helpful.

Like Thumper's dad said, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say nothin' at all.

As rare as it might be (although from the hospital staff and microbiology student on this thread, it looks like it is less rare than everyone wants to believe), mold obviously grows and grows fast in wort. So the next time someone asks about "something funny is floating in my beer," don't dismiss it.

Another thing to consider that when saying, "nothing that will kill you will grow in beer" is assuming someone has made beer. From what I understand, the acidity and alcohol in the beer, prevents dangerous pathogens from growing in, "Beer" The biggest problem here was that the OP did not in fact create beer. They only created wort, which is a perfect environment for just about anythig to grow.

 

[NinjaMedic]

That's a bad idea. That's just going to cause more problems than it solves. Try using some fermcap drops to control krausen instead, or just use a blowoff tube.

Thanks, I won't be making that mistake again. Going to redrew this with the suggested amount of yeast this time. We use a refrigerator with a thermostat that keeps it at the right temp so we're also going to a blow off tube.

 

[unionrdr]

I agree that when I looked at the 1st pic,it didn't look like anything teribbly unusual. Then by the second pics,I saw that blue & white & knew it was mold,just like you see on old bread. So def pitch the right amount of yeast next time. And clean & sanitize the fermenter real well before doing another one.

 

[TNGabe]

Wow, this thread has spiraled out of control nicely.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks, I won't be making that mistake again. Going to redrew this with the suggested amount of yeast this time. We use a refrigerator with a thermostat that keeps it at the right temp so we're also going to a blow off tube.

By the rate at which this mold appeared and grew, there is a potential problem looming for your next batches.
You should carefully review your sanitation methods. Something got missed.

Don't forget to clean all your equipment thoroughly, particularly the inside of tubes, hoses, canes, etc. After this mold infection a good scrub of everything inside and out followed by a long soak in bleach water is no luxury. Then rinse well and sanitize.

What sanitizer do you use?

Did you brush that carboy well (with a carboy brush and "soap") after your previous use?

 

[homebrewdad]

By the rate at which this mold appeared and grew, there is a potential problem looming for your next batches.
You should carefully review your sanitation methods. Something got missed.

Don't forget to clean all your equipment thoroughly, particularly the inside of tubes, hoses, canes, etc. After this mold infection a good scrub of everything inside and out followed by a long soak in bleach water is no luxury. Then rinse well and sanitize.

What sanitizer do you use?

Did you brush that carboy well (with a carboy brush and "soap") after your previous use?

The only thing that was wrong is that the OP killed his yeast.

For the record, I NEVER brush my carboys. A good soak with oxyclean, a thorough rinsing, followed by StarSan... never need to brush.

I would agree that an extra thorough cleaning is in order since the OP *knows* there are nasties around, but that doesn't mean he did anything else wrong before.