Modifying extract kits do’s and don’ts?

[IslandLizard]

Well I would essentially just be using it to maintain a specific temperature, unless doing a partial mash doesnt require too much precision in the way of temp. I also have a 1.5 gallon pot that I would use (only a 1 gallon batch ) and a grain bag to keep the grains in. I will have to test and make sure that the particulates dont mess around with the heating element.

Mash is sticky, but it will rinse off. Precision is good, that's what we try so hard to maintain, exact temps, throughout for an hour. In practice, a degree or 2 slip is hardly noticeable. Apparently we have larger deviations in the various processes when brewing our relatively small batches.

With a partial/mini mash don't put the grains in a grain steeping bag, water may not reach well enough inside. The grains kinda need to "swim," being exposed to the water. You've got to stir that mash when you combine the milled grains with the hot water, so there are no clumps (dough balls). Then stir again a few more times during that hour, and again well after the hour. Use about 1.25-1.5 quarts per pound of grain, that's a good ratio.
However, you can use a BIAB method for mini mashes, those special bags are roomy and pretty tightly woven.

Make sure you have enough diastatic power in your partial mash/mini mash. When in doubt, add a pound (or 2) of a base malt (2-row, Ale malt, Pilsner, Wheat Malt, etc.) to boost it.
Vienna converts itself plus maybe a quarter to half its weight of an adjunct.
Munich (<10°L) can just convert it self, but nothing else.
Darker Munich (>10°L) cannot convert itself, it needs a base malt addition to help out.
Flaked goods have no diastatic power, neither have Crystal or Cara malts, Carapils, Carafoam, Biscuit malt, Honey malt, Brown Malt, Melanoidins, Roasted goods, etc.

Before you decide to do a mash, please read up about it in the respective chapter in Palmer's Book. The Online version is good enough.
It's not that hard, just a few rules and an hour to mash.

 

[TwistedGray]

Using a sous vide in a partial mash or steeping grain step is like commuting an hour in a semi ... you can do it, but why. As noted above, a few degrees one way or another isn't life or death, 10s of degrees...perhaps a different story. I'd rather be on the cold side of things, fwiw.

I use my sous vide when kettle souring as that's essential.

 

[ancientmariner52]

I have no experience with sous vide machines. For small batches, could you use it in a double boiler arrangement? That way the heating element would never see anything but pure water.

 

[Gentle Jesus]

Mash is sticky, but it will rinse off. Precision is good, that's what we try so hard to maintain, exact temps, throughout for an hour. In practice, a degree or 2 slip is hardly noticeable. Apparently we have larger deviations in the various processes when brewing our relatively small batches.

With a partial/mini mash don't put the grains in a grain steeping bag, water may not reach well enough inside. The grains kinda need to "swim," being exposed to the water. You've got to stir that mash when you combine the milled grains with the hot water, so there are no clumps (dough balls). Then stir again a few more times during that hour, and again well after the hour. Use about 1.25-1.5 quarts per pound of grain, that's a good ratio.
However, you can use a BIAB method for mini mashes, those special bags are roomy and pretty tightly woven.

Make sure you have enough diastatic power in your partial mash/mini mash. When in doubt, add a pound (or 2) of a base malt (2-row, Ale malt, Pilsner, Wheat Malt, etc.) to boost it.
Vienna converts itself and can likely convert another pound of an adjunct.
Munich (<10°L) can just convert it self, but nothing else.
Darker Munich (>10°L) cannot convert itself, it needs a base malt addition to help out.
Flaked goods have no diastatic power, neither have Crystal or Cara malts, Carapils, Carafoam, Biscuit malt, Honey malt, Brown Malt, Melanoidins, Roasted goods, etc.

Before you decide to do a mash, please read up about it in the respective chapter in Palmer's Book. The Online version is good enough.
It's not that hard, just a few rules and an hour to mash.

Ok interesting stuff. I actually just picked up two books in the last week, so I may just rely on the internet for now.

But specifically what you mentioned, for example, would I need to add 2-row to flaked wheat/flaked oats just to convert it? Also I do have BIAB but I wish they made a cool little 1 gallon size bag, as the smallest they go is 5ish gallons.

 

[Gentle Jesus]

Using a sous vide in a partial mash or steeping grain step is like commuting an hour in a semi ... you can do it, but why. As noted above, a few degrees one way or another isn't life or death, 10s of degrees...perhaps a different story. I'd rather be on the cold side of things, fwiw.

I use my sous vide when kettle souring as that's essential.

Perhaps you are right octopus man. The only reasons I wanted to use it is because it never gets used, and I could set the temp and walk away without babying a propane stove top. But since a few degrees wont hurt, I will just revert to the stove top I think.

 

[TwistedGray]

Perhaps you are right octopus man. The only reasons I wanted to use it is because it never gets used, and I could set the temp and walk away without babying a propane stove top. But since a few degrees wont hurt, I will just revert to the stove top I think.

BUT now you can make a kettle sour (start here)

 

[Gentle Jesus]

BUT now you can make a kettle sour (start here)

Wow interesting. I am not too familiar with kettle sours but I will look it into, especially since it doesnt seem to take too long to make.

 

[TwistedGray]

Wow interesting. I am not too familiar with kettle sours but I will look it into, especially since it doesnt seem to take too long to make.

Quick turn around...join the FotD trade thread and you might get some kettle sours in your belly. Give you an idea of what to expect.

 

[Gentle Jesus]

Quick turn around...join the FotD trade thread and you might get some kettle sours in your belly. Give you an idea of what to expect.

I mean I have had plenty of sours before (Mraz Brewing Company is amazing for sours), I am just unsure what exactly a kettle sour is. More like a berliner weisse?

 

[IslandLizard]

Ok interesting stuff. I actually just picked up two books in the last week, so I may just rely on the internet for now.

But specifically what you mentioned, for example, would I need to add 2-row to flaked wheat/flaked oats just to convert it? Also I do have BIAB but I wish they made a cool little 1 gallon size bag, as the smallest they go is 5ish gallons.

Palmer's online How to Brew book is old, very concise, and still valid. That link takes you to the all grain section, mostly about mashing. It gives you an idea what the mash does. Or look up (partial or mini) mash on the innuhnets, there's a lot around. His latest, 4th edition is very up to date with today's homebrewing techniques and applications.

Yes, indeed, you need a base malt, like 2-row or wheat malt, to convert the wheat flakes. 1.5 pound of 2-row or wheat should be able to convert 2 pounds of any flaked product. The average Diastatic Power (DP) of your grist mix should be around 35°Lintner. 2-row is around 120-140, Wheat Malt 150-180. The darker the malt, the lower the DP generally. So 1.5# of 2-row + 2# of flaked wheat has a combined DP of 120-140 (2-row) + 0 (flaked wheat) / 3.5# (total weight) = 34-40. A DP of 30-35 is about the minimum you'd need for full conversion. Better err toward the higher number.

Can't you use the large bag, just drape a portion of it inside the pot? Tie the rest off.
You could buy some voile curtain material and make your own small BIAB bag on a sewing machine. Gallon paint strainer bags maybe a bit too coarse, but you can always pour the captured wort through the heap of grain again, until the running are (nearly) clear. The grain is a great filter bed.

 

[TwistedGray]

I mean I have had plenty of sours before (Mraz Brewing Company is amazing for sours), I am just unsure what exactly a kettle sour is. More like a berliner weisse?

You can kettle sour anything

 

[OpenSights]

More and more good info for a beginner! This hobby is like my job, which I love! Never say never and you learn something new every day.

 

[OpenSights]

Quick question. When I make my next batch of chocolate cherry stout, just with a different way of doing it, I assume it would it be ill advised to throw in some oak chips if I’m soaking the nibs in vanilla whiskey?

Way off topic, no matter what I couldn’t get the picture to load, too big, but I found a gem in a rental today.

1 gallon carboy filled with something and an air lock on it. LL shows up, I ask about it. He use to live there and 30 years ago his wife decided to try making wine. I’m friends with the tenant so I’m going to get it. Figure I’ll cap it and put it on the shelf as a conversation piece.

 

[IslandLizard]

Quick question. When I make my next batch of chocolate cherry stout, just with a different way of doing it, I assume it would it be ill advised to throw in some oak chips if I’m soaking the nibs in vanilla whiskey?

Of course you can add whiskey soaked chips to your beer. They'll lend that whiskey character back rather quickly, while providing tannins from the wood, first quickly, then much more slowly. Chips have a relatively large surface, so it's easy to overdo. You can taste a sample after a few days and see if it's there yet. If not let soak longer or add more. Keep notes so you know how much and how long works for you.

There are different kinds of woods and different toasts, so try something medium first.
Just one note, avoid using wood from your porch.

 

[OpenSights]

Good to know. I’ve seen some odd posts from that member. Most of the time I wonder if he’s serious or just messing around. I like to joke around myself, but it really makes ya wonder.

LHBS opens at noon. Have the kit, a fifth of vanilla whiskey and plenty of tart cherry extract. Need to get the nibs and a few other things. I could order everything online, but I’d rather support them than see them go out of business. Many home brewers are leaving the hobby because of all the craft breweries around. I like having a home brew store two miles from my house.

I’ve been thinking about racking into a secondary with what you said. The first batch I racked into secondary to add the nibs and cherry flavor. This was before I learned about using co2. So I’m trying to figure out the best way to flavor the kit. If I add the nibs and cherry when I pitch that will change the OG, so I think what I’ll do is just let it ferment for a couple weeks check the gravity, add the extra flavors and then let it sit for another 2-3 weeks.

I’m also wondering if I should even bother with the frozen cherries and just use the extract.

Now what’s your preferred way of carbonating? Priming sugar seems to work better for me. I’ve force carb’d twice. The first one I over did it. I haven’t tapped the second one yet, so I’m not sure if my adjustments are enough or not.

The first one I put 35psi in through the out and rolled it on the floor till it stopped bubbling and let it sit at 35psi for 24 hours. 75% head. Tasted good, you just have to wait five minutes to drink it. The second one I put 35psi in and shook it a few times. And have let it sit for a week. Going to tap it today and see how it comes out.

I have a single tap kegerator that I got in trade. I can fit three Corney Kegs, so I’m going to rebuild the the top for three taps. The weather is finally warm enough for a project like that. I might do it tomorrow, but need to order a three way valve.

We use to all get together for mother’s day, but now all the moms just go out for a movie, lunch, shopping and sometimes dinner. Works out for everyone.

 

[IslandLizard]

Good to know. I’ve seen some odd posts from that member. Most of the time I wonder if he’s serious or just messing around. I like to joke around myself, but it really makes ya wonder.

LHBS opens at noon. Have the kit, a fifth of vanilla whiskey and plenty of tart cherry extract. Need to get the nibs and a few other things. I could order everything online, but I’d rather support them than see them go out of business. Many home brewers are leaving the hobby because of all the craft breweries around. I like having a home brew store two miles from my house.

I’ve been thinking about racking into a secondary with what you said. The first batch I racked into secondary to add the nibs and cherry flavor. This was before I learned about using co2. So I’m trying to figure out the best way to flavor the kit. If I add the nibs and cherry when I pitch that will change the OG, so I think what I’ll do is just let it ferment for a couple weeks check the gravity, add the extra flavors and then let it sit for another 2-3 weeks.

I’m also wondering if I should even bother with the frozen cherries and just use the extract.

Now what’s your preferred way of carbonating? Priming sugar seems to work better for me. I’ve force carb’d twice. The first one I over did it. I haven’t tapped the second one yet, so I’m not sure if my adjustments are enough or not.

The first one I put 35psi in through the out and rolled it on the floor till it stopped bubbling and let it sit at 35psi for 24 hours. 75% head. Tasted good, you just have to wait five minutes to drink it. The second one I put 35psi in and shook it a few times. And have let it sit for a week. Going to tap it today and see how it comes out.

I have a single tap kegerator that I got in trade. I can fit three Corney Kegs, so I’m going to rebuild the the top for three taps. The weather is finally warm enough for a project like that. I might do it tomorrow, but need to order a three way valve.

We use to all get together for mother’s day, but now all the moms just go out for a movie, lunch, shopping and sometimes dinner. Works out for everyone.

Just enjoy the posts and banter that member causes, if you can take them for what they're worth. Otherwise you're better of ignoring them.

Most fruits are added after the main fermentation has slowed down. I think the reason is to preserve more flavor and aroma, while it reduces possible weird flavored byproducts. After adding fruit or "stuff" that contains sugar a secondary fermentation may or will occur, which is to be expected and fine. Most people now add fruit and "stuff" to the primary and let it sit for another week or 2, or a bit longer before they package. But if they're adding a lot and they want to harvest the yeast, or want to leave it on the fruit and stuff for longer times (say over 4 weeks) racking to a secondary may be better. Again, prevent exposure to air and oxidation while doing so.

What exactly is that cherry extract you've got?

In general, real fruit has better flavors and aroma reminiscent of the real thing, while most, if not all extracts tend to lend an artificial tone. The quality of extracts varies widely and when using the best of them in moderation, it can add that something special you are aiming for. Overdo, it or use cheap extracts, you get what you asked for. For example I bought a 4 oz bottle of raspberry extract from the LHBS and instructions indicate to use 2-4 ounces per 5 gallons (!). After carefully doping and tasting half pints with single drops at a time, I ended up using 5-6 ml in 5 gallons, added to the keg, to just get that hint without blowing out any taste buds. Even at that small dosage, I think I still could detect something artificial. Many brewers will add both fruit and a small amount of extract to enhance and boost the natural flavors from the fruit. It's a fine line sometimes between what's great and acceptable.

Frozen fruit is best for adding to beers, as the cell structures have been ruptured by freezing, lending the juice easier and quicker to the beer. Sometimes freezing and defrosting a few times in succession, perfects that rupturing process. Basically if the fruit is whole extraction takes a long time, and may never complete. If it is virtually puree it's the quickest and more thorough.

You're adding the whiskey you soaked the nibs in too, yes? How much, about a half pint? The alcohol contribution is easy to calculate, but not that significant once diluted to 5 gallons.

A week under 35 psi is way too long, it will be overcarbonated.

I force carbonate at around 30 psi by rolling until the ice cold beer doesn't take anymore up (regulator stops groaning or gas stops rushing in). I leave it under 30 psi for 12 hours, then drop it to 12 psi (serving pressure), while bleeding off the excess every 4-6 hours. I can tap after 24 hours but still get a bit more foam then I want, although it gets better every day. I do bleed off the excess a few more times over the next day or 2, it's usually perfect by then and nicely carbonated. I have 20' BevSeal Ultra (PET lined) lines.

On most beer towers you can add 2 taps to get 3 in total. You need to drill/punch the extra holes in the right places, though.

What do you need a 3-way valve for?

 

[OpenSights]

This is the extract: https://www.shorelinefruit.com/12/cherry-concentrate

Some really good stuff...

I’m hoping to brew today as long as I get the household chores done while Mrs. OpenSights is out enjoying mother’s day.

Last night I took a pint glass, added 4oz of nibs, 2oz whiskey chips and topped it with the vanilla whiskey, about a third of a fifth.

If I don’t brew today it’ll have to be the weekend after next.

Still haven’t tapped the keg yet... either too many craft six packs have been following me home or I have a bottomless keg! I like trying craft beers not only for ideas, but to learn how to identify characteristics and flavors.

I was thinking of a three way valve that way I can isolate each line to each keg... but now that you question it I see your point.

 

[IslandLizard]

This is the extract: https://www.shorelinefruit.com/12/cherry-concentrate

Some really good stuff...

I’m hoping to brew today as long as I get the household chores done while Mrs. OpenSights is out enjoying mother’s day.

Last night I took a pint glass, added 4oz of nibs, 2oz whiskey chips and topped it with the vanilla whiskey, about a third of a fifth.

If I don’t brew today it’ll have to be the weekend after next.

Still haven’t tapped the keg yet... either too many craft six packs have been following me home or I have a bottomless keg! I like trying craft beers not only for ideas, but to learn how to identify characteristics and flavors.

I was thinking of a three way valve that way I can isolate each line to each keg... but now that you question it I see your point.

That looks like genuine sour cherry juice concentrate! Calling it an extract would be an insult.
I'd add that when the fermentation has nearly completed. Or... better yet, add it directly to the serving keg. Since the keg is kept cold, the yeast won't be able to metabolize the sugars it still contains. That way you'll find more of that $$ product in your glass. But I'm not an expert on that.

The frozen and macerated cherries should be added to the primary at the end of the fermentation, or if you want, to the secondary. Make sure they stay covered under beer, or they may develop mold. For that, give the fermentor a slight stir or swirl every couple days.

I guess you could put a shut off valve in each keg's beer line, and open the one you want to tap from. The closer they are to the faucet, the less blending will occur. But valves and splitters could create extra turbulence and thus foaming. I've never tried that.

 

[OpenSights]

Just got back from grocery shopping. When I went to get the info I discovered my 9y/o had been sampling the cherry. Not surprising. You’re right with my terminology.

At my store you can buy 16oz for $11 but today they had the 32oz on sale for $18, $2 off.

You’re also right, after adding it to secondary I tasted it and was perfect. When I tasted it when I kegged it the cherry was gone and I had to add more. I believe I ended up using about 8oz total. Out of the tap you can pick up on it, but the nibs take over the show... almost a coffee taste. Some disagree, but my tasters are extremely sensitive to coffee. I had a coworker borrow my water cup on a overnight rush job for coffee once. He washed it and everything, but the next day all I tasted was the faint flavor of coffee. I asked my wife if she thought I should hold back a bit on the nibs, she said no. I thought about dialing back to 3oz... but ya gotta keep momma happy or nobody’s happy.

For my kegerator I’m going to ditch the tower and build a box and have three separate taps, which I already have. I was going to build one out of our old fridge, but a trade came up and I went with it. Downside, no frozen mugs in the same unit, three corneys instead of four, upside, takes up less space. Basically my plan is to build a box for the taps. One cider and two different styles of beer.

Oh, forgot to mention, I find that one guy comical! I don’t remember what thread it was, but I was in tears! Life is too short to ignore anything or get mad about something. Best thing to do is laugh.

 

[IslandLizard]

It's amazing how much fruit or juice needs to be added to get enough fruit flavor. Even the sour cherries contain sugar, once the sugar is gone, it's hard to find that cherry flavor. How sweet is that concentrate, taste wise? Must be sweet enough for your 9y/o to appreciate it.

A stout has tons of strong roasty flavors, you add cocoa and whiskey to that. Those cherries have a lot of competition.

In sour beers, such as Krieks, most brewers use 2 pounds per gallon of sour cherries to get enough flavor to say, yeah, that's a good Kriek! 1 pound is perceptible, but not enough. In those beers, aside from the sour beer base, there are no other strong or heavy flavors the cherries need to compete against.
Some now use juice concentrate, I guess similar to what you have, saying they get more flavor that way. Not sure what they use or how much they're adding.

Look around for some innovative tap "box" designs. One of the best I remember was 2" or 3" threaded steel pipe with cast fittings, elbows, T's, mounting rings, etc. Since you're a plumber... that would be very apropos!

 

[OpenSights]

I’d say it’s tart, but with a little sweetness. My kid has some weird taste buds. He’ll drink pickle juice when the pickles are gone. Texture is more of his deciding factor if he likes something.

Manipulating a stout is quite the challenge for sure! The beer I brewed last weekend is just about done. Basically a Budweiser clone. I added Citra hops just before flameout, picked up an extra oz to dry hop in secondary, or at least once fermentation slowed enough. No need. Nice balance.

 

[OpenSights]

On a side note, I don’t normally think of fruit and beer.. my wife loves dark chocolate covered cherries... what better beer to modify? Maybe porter...

Way off subject, but her favorite mixed drink is a dirty martini. Haven’t made wine yet... but when I try, that white whale is the next challenge. Years from now.

 

[OpenSights]

Stopped by my LHBS today for a part for my kegerator and a sale on hops. Picked up Super Alpha (Dr. Rudi), Waimea, Kohatu and Crystal Hop Hash. $1-$2/oz. I have one more pale ale kit I’m thinking of brewing this weekend. I know if I add any of these at 45 minuets it’ll probably be too bitter for my taste. Thinking of adding at 30, 15 and dry hop.

I bought quite a few of them, not planning on all of them in one batch, thinking 2oz of Dr. Rudi at 30, 1oz of Crystal Hop Hash at 15 and either flameout or dry hop.

Too much? Kit is all DME with, iirc either 1oz of cascade or crystal which thinking of omitting.

 

[OpenSights]

Been reading up on Hop Hash. Will use caution.

 

[IslandLizard]

Good score on those nice (NZ) hops!

But I wouldn't kill them with 60, 45 or even 15 minutes in the boil. Use a (cheap and cheerful) dedicated bittering hop for, well, most of the bittering, like Warrior, Magnum, Nugget, etc. Add some "flavor" hops if you want at 10' or 5' no earlier!

I'd prefer 0' (flameout) hops, and start chilling immediately until it's down to 180F, let steep/whirlpool for 15'.
Then chill more and add a hop addition in the whirlpool at 170-160F and let steep/whirlpool for 30', before chilling down to pitching temps. That's where you put your (expensive) flavorful hops!
And then a good dry hop of course. Or 2. If the style permits, like Pales, IPAs, Hoppy Wheats, etc.

Sure, replace your kit hops with something more exotic!

 

[OpenSights]

Decided to stop and pick up some more hops. Nick, the guy who runs it says “If by them all I’ll give you a good deal.” Sure, my last customer paid me in cash and it was starting to burning a hole in my pocket.

6oz of super alpha, 1oz crystal Hop Hash, 7oz Waimea and 7oz Kohatu. $15! Hope I like them.

I’ve been reading up on these and concentrating on the crystal Hash. I don’t think I’ll be using them for bittering unless I only add a 1/4oz. I’m thinking 10 minuets tops for a half oz or maybe flameout and dry hop the rest.

 

[OpenSights]

Normally I like darker beers, but I don’t think fruitiness in dark beers is a good idea. Since I started brewing I’ve been exploring and respecting the different tastes of the recipes, the how and why they taste the way they do.

Tonight I picked up a golden ale with juniper, coriander and lime from shorts.... lime is overkill! Buy a corona and dump in an entire lime of juice in it. Mouth feel is great, but lime beer would be a better description.

 

[Gentle Jesus]

I like darker beers as well and agree mostly with the fruit not being added to them. However is only adding a 1 time hop bittering addition in the beginning of a boil ok for a stout? Or will adding a bit towards the end of the boil give it a gross fruit flavor that is undesired in something like a stout?

 

[OpenSights]

My last batch of Irish stout (LME kit) I added 1oz of cascade at flameout. Not a fruitie flavor, just a dumb idea. I’m actually thinking of dumping the keg. It’s drinkable, but you need a whiskey chaser.

I bought a couple of books about stouts a porters, but still reading two other brewing books.

 

[OpenSights]

Removed - Plug for a kickstarter campaign of a magical machine that can brew anything...
-- Moderator

I’d like to know quite a bit more. Especially fermentation. I would imagine the ingredient packs would probably cost the same as just buying craft six packs, but that’s just a guess.

Choosing the custom ingredients would certainly be a game changer on what works with what, but as I’m learning I find that brewing isn’t 100% ingredients, it’s also about the process. When to add this, when to add that.

I started out following instructions to a tee, now I’m trying to experiment, learn the craft.

I want to go all grain eventually, but that’s probably next year. Summer is is my busy season and fall will be dedicated to cider. I have 100% access to a couple of mature apple trees, so... when opportunity knocks...