Mixing in LME

[jhave1012]

Hello,

New to the forum but eager to learn!

I know there are lots of threads on this topic, but how vigorously do you stir in your LME. I'm still getting more darkening/off flavors than expected and I'm wondering if I'm still getting a bit of scorching.

My next batch I'm going to try late extract addition and see if that helps.

I've done about 5 batches so far and it seems that the last two, even with the best temperature control, have had the strongest fruity/green apple flavor.

Thanks!

 

[mrgrimm101]

Take it off the heat when you add your extract. That way it won't scorch. I stir very vigorously to make sure it all gets mixed well..even more so with DME, as that clumps up and needs to be separated out. I've never had an issue like you describe. I don't think a late addition will help any. You need to be careful with late extract additions, as it can throw off your target IBUs.

Your off flavors sound like you're fermenting too high. Can you lay out your fermentation process, with temps and times?

 

[jhave1012]

I take the pot off the burner and mix low to high with the spoon, but maybe I'm not doing it vigorous enough. I don't have any residue at the bottom of the pot like it burned, but I'm not sure if there are different levels of scorching.

Once I pitch the yeast I put the bucket in an insulated box. I have a fan and use ice packs to keep it cool inside. I have a microcontroller and a temp sensor to track the temp, but I was also using one of those sticky thermometers on the bucket. I don't think it ever hit 70 degrees which should be ok for US-05. It spent 4 weeks in primary and then when I took a hydrometer reading it had that dark look and kind of a fermenting fruit smell. I left it in primary 2 more weeks and then bottled.

 

[mrgrimm101]

6 weeks in primary sounds like a loooong time IMO. What style was the recipe? Can you list the recipe? Darkening of the beer could be due oxidation..

 

[jhave1012]

Yeah, I left it in there longer hoping some of those flavors would condition out. I took a peak after the first week and they were already there though which means it happened during the active fermentation.

It was the Dead Ringer IPA from Northern Brewer. Nothing too out of the ordinary about the recipe/kit.

I suppose it could be oxidization. Seems unlikely that my lid would be that loose though.

 

[Transamguy77]

If you are mixing in your LME in the beginning of the boil then yes it will darken. As was already stated I would remove the pot from heat and then stir it in and stir for awhile to make sure it's not on the bottom before returning it to the heat.

I used to do late addition LME after a few batches and I liked it better, the beer was not as dark and had less of that "extract twang". As far as IBU's go I can not comment on that but I did make a few repeat batches and I preferred the late addition LME better.

 

[jhave1012]

Thanks transamguy

Does the darkening necessarily lead to the off flavors i'm experiencing or do you think they are two separate issues that need to be diagnosed?

I'm going to try the late addition on the next batch and I also hope to have a dedicated fridge for the fermentation. I guess I'll shoot for an ambient temp of 62 degrees in the fridge and see what happens.

 

[slym2none]

Yep - off the heat for mixing, and mix it well. I use a whisk near the top of the surface when pouring in DME and whisk like mad.

I think I'd be the poster-boy for HSA if there was actually such a thing...

 

[jhave1012]

Whisk is a good idea. So many variables to try to tweak!

 

[unionrdr]

I like to use the 28" plastic paddle from the brew supply sites myself, like this one; http://www.midwestsupplies.com/28-stirring-paddle-plastic.html
It makes it way easier to get the syrupy LME off the bottom of the kettle, of the heat source of course. Here's a link to off flavors you can study as well; http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

 

[flars]

I add half of my LME at 15 to 10 minutes before the end of the boil. When I add the first half, I will keep about a 4 inch deep whirl pool going and pour slowly.

I will use hot wort during the 60 minute boil to fill the jugs, containing the remaining LME, and mix well with the handle of a wooden spoon. The LME then pours and mixes very easily when it is added near the end of the boil.

The fruity flavor you noticed in a couple of beers could be from fermenting US-05, if this was the yeast used, below 65°F. I've found a peach flavor can be produced and is noticeable in some recipes. I've begun fermenting with US-05 at 66° to 68° and have not had this flavor anymore.

 

[jhave1012]

That's interesting about fermenting at a higher temperature. I've just been trying to keep it as low as possible during the summer months. I'd call what I'm experiencing more of a 'homebrew' flavor though rather than something subtle. Next recipe I'll try the late addition and your 4 inch deep whirlpool and see what happens. Thanks for the response.

 

[Transamguy77]

Thanks transamguy

Does the darkening necessarily lead to the off flavors i'm experiencing or do you think they are two separate issues that need to be diagnosed?

I'm going to try the late addition on the next batch and I also hope to have a dedicated fridge for the fermentation. I guess I'll shoot for an ambient temp of 62 degrees in the fridge and see what happens.

The darkening could be the off flavors but I'm not sure the only thing I can say is to try adding it late in your boil and see if the flavor is gone or less.

 

[javaking]

If you are mixing in your LME in the beginning of the boil then yes it will darken. As was already stated I would remove the pot from heat and then stir it in and stir for awhile to make sure it's not on the bottom before returning it to the heat.

I used to do late addition LME after a few batches and I liked it better, the beer was not as dark and had less of that "extract twang". As far as IBU's go I can not comment on that but I did make a few repeat batches and I preferred the late addition LME better.

I have had a lot of issues with adding all of my LME at the beginning of the boil. I had several beers that all were way too dark and had a similar off flavor, even though I removed the kettle during LME addition. For my last beer I made a cream ale and added half of the LME at the beginning of the boil, and half at 5 minutes left. I will tell you that it made a huge difference. The beer is the perfect color and I don't identify any of the flavors that I tasted with the other brews. I will say that it is a little more bitter than I hoped, even though I adjusted the amount of hops added. Overall, I highly recommend late additions, you may have to adjust the amount of hops added but you don't have to worry about burning of LME.

 

[unionrdr]

Or, as I've done numerous times in the past, Cut the amount of LME & use plain DME in the boil for hop additions, adding all the LME at flameout. Or using Cooper's cans. 1 1/2lbs DME in 2.5-3.5 gallons water, do a flavor hop addition or two. Then add remaining DME & the Cooper's can at flameout.

 

[jhave1012]

Sounds like late addition on the next batch is the way to go. Even if it comes out a little bitter, that can be adjusted on the next brew if that off flavor is gone. It is strange that some people seem to be able to make good beer without doing the late additions. The receipes in papazian's book all have you adding extract earlier in the boil.

 

[ncbrewer]

The receipes in papazian's book all have you adding extract earlier in the boil.

I think late extract addition wasn't practiced at the time of Papazian's book, or at least wasn't common.

 

[slym2none]

That Papazian guy has no idea what he is talking about anymore...

/sarcasm

 

[MadHomebrewer]

Had the same problems with LME and the dead ringer kit was my first brew. Then I found the below 15 minute APA recipe using only DME and have not looked back.

15 min Citra Pale Ale (5 gallon):
6 lb. Golden Light DME
1 lb. Crystal 60L
You can use your favorite hop. I chose Citra.
2 oz. Citra Hops (15 min)
1 oz. Citra Hops (5 min)
1 oz. Citra Hops (0 min)
Safale US-05
Put crystal malt in your water and heat. Once you hit 170 degrees pull out crystal malt and continue heating till rolling boil. You are only boiling 15 minutes. Add your DME and first hop addition and start your timer for 15 minutes. Add rest of hops at specified times. Dry hopping is optional but highly recommended. I dry hop 1oz of Citra for 7 days.

Pic:View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1442496230.143771.jpg

 

[MadHomebrewer]

If you wanted something like dead ringer, sub out centennial for the Citra.

Also to make it an IPA you could add a pound of table sugar. It will be low in IBUs around 40 unless you add more hops at 15 min.

 

[jhave1012]

Thanks madhomebrewer. It could be that all my issues are ultimately related to the LME. The question is whether to discover the source or just switch to the DME like you suggest. I think I'll try your recipe and see how it works out. Is this with a full or partial boil?

 

[MadHomebrewer]

Thanks madhomebrewer. It could be that all my issues are ultimately related to the LME. The question is whether to discover the source or just switch to the DME like you suggest. I think I'll try your recipe and see how it works out. Is this with a full or partial boil?

Well the issue is the longer the malt liquid or dry is in the boil it will caramelize and darken your beer. You can turn your heat down to a low boil, that did help some. The beauty of this recipe is the extract is only in the boil 15 min. And honestly you are only sanitizing the extract. Extract does not need the hour boil like all grain. With this the beer you can adjust the color with the grain you are steeping. Want it a touch lighter use crystal 40 instead of 60.

Full boil if you have a big enough pot. If not partial boil will work, but your IBUs will go down.

 

[jhave1012]

So have you experienced the same darkening affect with DME as well?

 

[unionrdr]

DME doesn't darken any where near as readily as LME. That's why I prefer it in the boil over LME. And extract doesn't need to be boiled to sanitize/pasteurize it. That happens in seconds @ 160F. And the only reason any boil is an hour long isn't because they're using grain, it's for the bittering addition.

 

[MadHomebrewer]

So have you experienced the same darkening affect with DME as well?

No, I have not noticed darkening with DME.

 

[MadHomebrewer]

DME doesn't darken any where near as readily as LME. That's why I prefer it in the boil over LME. And extract doesn't need to be boiled to sanitize/pasteurize it. That happens in seconds @ 160F. And the only reason any boil is an hour long isn't because they're using grain, it's for the bittering addition.

All grain boils for a hour to drive off DMS and hop utilization. DME and LME have already had the DMS driven off in the manufacturing process.

 

[jhave1012]

Interesting note. The northern brewer extra pale ale kit instructions now say to add only 1/2 of the LME at the beginning and the rest at the end. I'm pretty sure before you added it all at the beginning. The times are a changing!

 

[unionrdr]

All grain boils for a hour to drive off DMS and hop utilization. DME and LME have already had the DMS driven off in the manufacturing process.

You just leave the lid off to allow DMS precursors to escape. Not so much that it takes an hour for them to. An hour boil just happens to be the norm for isomerization, etc.