Mixed Primary Ferment WLP565 and Brett Brux

[pvault98]

I am planning to brew a split batch of Saison this weekend and looking for some insight. One batch will be just straight WLP565, however the other batch I wanted to blend the 565 with Brett Brux, both pitched same time in primary. My goal is to produce a nice, mellow Brett funk without it overpowering the Saison characteristics. I am looking to blend the yeast in primary instead of doing the Brett in secondary in order to reduce the time needed for the Brett flavors to develop.

Does anyone have any experience in doing this? What ratio of Brett to Saison yeast did you use? I am thinking 50/50 will produce too much Brett flavors so maybe cutting the Brett down to 30% of the mix might be better....any thoughts?

 

[sweetcell]

I am looking to blend the yeast in primary instead of doing the Brett in secondary in order to reduce the time needed for the Brett flavors to develop.

What ratio of Brett to Saison yeast did you use? I am thinking 50/50 will produce too much Brett flavors so maybe cutting the Brett down to 30% of the mix might be better....

brett doesn't behave the same way as sacch, so you can't simply vary the ratios of sacch and brett and expect to get a balance that way.

brett is slower than sacch. sacch will take off in 24 hours, whereas even a massive pitch of brett will take a few days to get going. that being said, pitching your sacch and brett together should speed things up a bit since the brett will have a bit of time to grow before the sacch takes over. you should still pitch enough sacch to get the job done on it's own.

the characteristic funky brett flavors of a brett'ed saison as produced by the brett in secondary, as it transforms the by-products of sacch into new flavors. brett when used as a primary yeast - i.e. to ferment sugars - is actually quite clean and it doesn't super-attenuate. 100% brett beers really don't taste like the funky beers produced by adding brett with or after sacch (so that it munches up sacch's esters and turns them into funky flavors).

when using brett as a secondary yeast, the pitch rate doesn't really matter. pitching more will speed up the process somewhat, but it'll still take a few weeks to a few months for brett to chew through what's it's going to chew through.

i suspect that trying to get brett to act as a primary yeast, while mixed in with sacch, would be very difficult. there is no way of predicting how quickly each of the yeast will take off. a better bet would be to split the batch, ferment the 100% brett portion apart from the sacch portion, then blend them together after both primary fermentations are done.

apologies for the disjointed reply...

 

[pvault98]

Cool, thanks for the detailed response. That was kinda what I was thinking would happen with the Brett but I wasn't really sure. I think instead I am gonna make a split batch using WLP 565 and WY3711 and then maybe blend some from each of those and pitch brett for secondary on the blended batch.

 

[BigPerm]

This may be kind of off-topic, but I'll throw it out there anyway. I recently did a batch (it was a wit, not a saison, but the point is the same), where I brewed a double batch, split it in half, added the same quantity of yeast to both (from the same starter). To one of them, I pitched the dregs from 2 375ml bottles of Jolly Pumpkins Calabaza Blanca. I bottled them both 3 weeks later and the difference between the two is pretty astounding. The brett character is noticable but restrained, with some pretty nice low-level tartness. Really complex and refreshing fresh, but i'm sure it'll change a lot as it ages.

I'm not sure this is what you were after, but just thought I'd mention it. Im pretty sure jolly pumpkin uses 565 for their saison (and possibly everything), and their wild saisons are pretty awesome.

 

[sweetcell]

To one of them, I pitched the dregs from 2 375ml bottles of Jolly Pumpkins Calabaza Blanca. I bottled them both 3 weeks later and the difference between the two is pretty astounding. The brett character is noticable but restrained, with some pretty nice low-level tartness. Really complex and refreshing fresh, but i'm sure it'll change a lot as it ages.

JP dregs contain more than just brett. there's a lacto in there that really brings the sour. the saison that i added JP dregs did indeed change with time... getting more sour.

 

[BigPerm]

JP dregs contain more than just brett. there's a lacto in there that really brings the sour. the saison that i added JP dregs did indeed change with time... getting more sour.

No doubt. I guess I didn't explicitly mention that, except to say I wasnt sure if that's what he was going for.

JP dregs definitely have lactic acid bacteria, so they will contribute sourness. In the one I did, I got pretty low levels that are very pleasant in the young beer. IMO, even their aged stuff doesnt get really super sour, which is why I like it in this context. Everyone's palate is different though, and if you don't want any sourness, certainly dont use this method.

 

[MattHollingsworth]

brett doesn't behave the same way as sacch, so you can't simply vary the ratios of sacch and brett and expect to get a balance that way.

brett is slower than sacch. sacch will take off in 24 hours, whereas even a massive pitch of brett will take a few days to get going. that being said, pitching your sacch and brett together should speed things up a bit since the brett will have a bit of time to grow before the sacch takes over. you should still pitch enough sacch to get the job done on it's own.

the characteristic funky brett flavors of a brett'ed saison as produced by the brett in secondary, as it transforms the by-products of sacch into new flavors. brett when used as a primary yeast - i.e. to ferment sugars - is actually quite clean and it doesn't super-attenuate. 100% brett beers really don't taste like the funky beers produced by adding brett with or after sacch (so that it munches up sacch's esters and turns them into funky flavors).

when using brett as a secondary yeast, the pitch rate doesn't really matter. pitching more will speed up the process somewhat, but it'll still take a few weeks to a few months for brett to chew through what's it's going to chew through.

i suspect that trying to get brett to act as a primary yeast, while mixed in with sacch, would be very difficult. there is no way of predicting how quickly each of the yeast will take off. a better bet would be to split the batch, ferment the 100% brett portion apart from the sacch portion, then blend them together after both primary fermentations are done.

apologies for the disjointed reply...

Some good information here! But, a few things that were different in my experience with Brett. I am just saying what I have personally experienced.

I haven't noticed much of a lag when using 100% Brett. Brett Trois from White Labs starts just as fast as Sacch. No lag at all. Brett C, WLP645, has had a small lag for me, but was fully fermenting and very active by 18 hours. Brett Brux had no lag for me either. These are all White Labs that I have used and all had decently large starters made in three steps over 8 days, then chilled for 3-4 days, decanted and pitched.

Also, Brett C actually *does* produce Brett character when used 100%. I have found that Brett Brux does not, it is pretty clean. Brett Trois has a lot of fruit character with a very slight Brett edge to it, but it is very slight indeed. But that Brett C actually has a lot of Brett character if you use only that. You have to let it sit, though, at least in my experience. I brewed a beer with only Brett C in early December. A couple of weeks later, just a fairly mild beer. I then went out of town for 9 weeks and when I returned, it had quite a lot of Brett character and a massive pellicle. It is not all horse blanket or anything and is a sort of nice, softer Brett. But there is no confusing it. It's quite prominently Bretty and very pleasant. At least that is my experience.

Cheers, guys!