Mild Steel vs Stainless Steel

[user 246304]

If you are a welder, designer and have shop equipment and time, it would cost less of course. But it you are paying a fabricator, just go with something that has years of proving under its belt and has already been through the "prototyping" stages. It will save a lot of those "oops, I should have done x, y and z"

Gotcha, well considered and point taken in. Basically it's come down to my draft above, probably raising the kettles of the struts by simple 1 x 1 shims, or the rear-vented idea proposed by Brewer's Hardware, I think it was. I have a draft but not uploaded. This, basically:

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, that BrewMagic stand is clearly set up for keggles.
Looking at how they fit together those inserts wouldn't work at all with flat bottom kettles...

Cheers!

 

[SoCal-Doug]

fwiw, that BrewMagic stand is clearly set up for keggles. Looking at how they fit together those inserts wouldn't work at all with flat bottom kettles... Cheers!

Good catch! I wonder if they have a provision for flat bottom kettles, or would do some sort of modified option. Taller rests or eliminating the inner lip would take care of it.

 

[user 246304]

Good catch indeed. Thanks, Trippr. But seeing them did make me think of that kind of a solution - removable, sturdy ss insets that would support a vessel.

OTOH, I see a ton of pro and frames here that are red or black, seem to be powder coated, maybe, with the elevated grillwork in matte black - BBQ paint, I believe.

 

[socalboomer]

One question I probably know the answer to already. Can one learn to TIG on his own? I'm asking because it's not just about this project, but it's a skill I'd love to learn and actually become decent at. Building brewery things. Problem is, with our tech college, you can't even take welding 1 if you're not in the professional welding program. So everything would have to be self-taught.

One book I read said, don't even think of it till you master oxyacetylene. Thoughts?

Tig mainly requires different equipment, and costs more, and requires Argon and such, and is more touchy, honestly. MIG is easier (and easier to screw up), flux core (basically MIG without gas) is cheapest and about as easy as MIG, and just as easy to not get a good solid weld.

Best advice - find someone to weld it for you, and take classes at your community college. That way you use their consumables (rod, wire, etc.) and work on machines that are configured properly (probably the most problematic thing - how to configure your machines properly impacts the penetration and such) and have someone look over your shoulder to tell you to fix things.

 

[user 246304]

Thanks socal. I actually used flux core for the first (and only) time when I built my first frame, 20 years ago, in 1 x 1. Absolutely no training. Local gas store traded the MIG for some beer when it got finished, lol. Functionally, well, OK. But man, was it UGLY. I was a complete doof with thing.

Thanks on the TIG v. MIG notes. I actually do have a welder lined up but at something like $1200 for the ss job (I forget the mild quote), that's gonna hurt though he comes highly recommended. I get the sense from SocalDoug (I'm a SoCalPaul - Ventura. Lotta dudes from home country here!) what the welder wants to charge may be a touch high, but probably reasonable given our market. Recommended by my best friend's wife, the guy is insanely busy so I know he's good. Just the last big bullet I have to bite, before finishing it all out and get started brewing.

Bummer on the community college thing. They don't do it, at least anywhere around here. You have to enter the welder's track program, a set series of courses to become an entry-level pro. I was really bummed as I'd hoped to pick up gas, stick, MIG and TIG. Now that I think of it, maybe I just un-de facto retire, roll back the years, and get started, lol.

Thanks again.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I personally do not think your quotes are high. I do fabrication and can say that I would be near that. I made mine out of mild steel. It is a 3 tier, 25 gal setup. I made mine out of 1 1/2” x 1/8” angle and 1/8” flattened expanded metal. I use 2-20 tip NG jet burners and a 30 gal cooler MT. I brew exclusively outside and my rig stays outside. I bought a nice tarp and cover it. I’ve done nearly a 100 batches on that thing. I just painted it for a second time about 3 weeks ago after 7 years. My burner shrouds are 1/8” plate. They were really the only thing rusting. I just used high temp paint. I couldn’t bring myself to buy stainless. I have all the things for mig and tig. It was still too much for me to justify. If I were to build a stand again, it would be a 2 tier. I would make it out of 1x1x1/8” square tubing. I would make my heat/wind shrouds from stainless. I just made a guy a stand like this and the tubing was $65 a stick. If your wanting a show piece, then spend for stainless. It does look nice. Just my $.02

 

[casualbrewer]

You can weld stainless with a stick welder but it just won't be as pretty as TIG. Will be just as strong or stronger though. Watch some YouTube vids of people running stick on stainless.

 

[user 246304]

I personally do not think your quotes are high. I do fabrication and can say that I would be near that. I made mine out of mild steel. It is a 3 tier, 25 gal setup. I made mine out of 1 1/2” x 1/8” angle and 1/8” flattened expanded metal. I use 2-20 tip NG jet burners and a 30 gal cooler MT. I brew exclusively outside and my rig stays outside. I bought a nice tarp and cover it. I’ve done nearly a 100 batches on that thing. I just painted it for a second time about 3 weeks ago after 7 years. My burner shrouds are 1/8” plate. They were really the only thing rusting. I just used high temp paint. I couldn’t bring myself to buy stainless. I have all the things for mig and tig. It was still too much for me to justify. If I were to build a stand again, it would be a 2 tier. I would make it out of 1x1x1/8” square tubing. I would make my heat/wind shrouds from stainless. I just made a guy a stand like this and the tubing was $65 a stick. If your wanting a show piece, then spend for stainless. It does look nice. Just my $.02

OK, great information. Gives me some things to consider - thanks. Per below, I don't want to spend any money on the frame that I don't need to - it can sure be used in other brewing needs. I am strongly leaning to stainless because of what I thought was a better functionality, durability, across time. Like I say below, and like the brewer I've been in touch implied, if uncoated mild could hold for 20 years as an outside (protected) rig, there'd be zero question for me. I've got round heat shields in ss from Brewer's Hardware already - is there a problem joining ss to mild, anywhere? Because I'm also thinking of making only the "hot" parts stainless, and keeping the rest mild.

I can see this decision is going to take longer than I'd originally thought, lol.

Thanks again.

 

[user 246304]

You can weld stainless with a stick welder but it just won't be as pretty as TIG. Will be just as strong or stronger though. Watch some YouTube vids of people running stick on stainless.

I'm not worried at all about aesthetics, just looking for functionality. If uncoated mild really could hold up 60 gallons across its frame for 20 years, I'd completely be down with that. If using a standard electrode on stainless, I know it will be ugly but I thought that was taboo, mixing stainless and mild in a weld, because you'll induce corrosion. Funny you say this though because I'm reading through some books and the first "tig" machine they show is an ancient buzzbox. Looks like I need to read the chapter, and check out the vids. Thanks.

 

[user 246304]

OK, I came across a cheap little 90 amp Titan Vaper, crap mig machine. Flux core, up to 1/8 gauge, which is what I've got going possibly. Local sale, can probably get it to $100. Worth it, if I decide to pull the trigger on mild steel?

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Brother, the mild steel will be quite functional, and may well outlast you, depending on weld integrity.

I've said it before, "buy once, cry once", or have someone weld it up for you.

Don't know the machine you are speaking of, but I have a 20 year old Miller 150 mig machine, and I'm no primo welder, but it's served me well.

That said, I'm on a learning curve with flux core wire, ( not a fan so far), but using it 'cause gas bottle prices are surprisingly high here!

And I'd weld stainless to mild in a heartbeat if needed, for this application.

If structural, the joint areas can be reinforced accordingly, if you be unsure of the strength of said joint.

 

[user 246304]

OK, thanks Stealth. Ironically the one and only time I welded was with a flux core Mig, and the only time messing with oxyacetylene was when I was a stupid kid with my brother, who was chop and channeling an old Ford 31. I seriously almost blew us to smithereens. I was a scuba diver and do, now, have respect for gas bottles!

All I remember about the flux core is that it was pretty ugly, smoked and spat a lot, but my welding was surely to blame. It worked, but I think I was lucky. I now know I had a lot of burn-throughs, just basically did a really lousy job.

I wouldn't even look at this welder were it not for the fact I can get it so cheaply and if I do it myself, it's wire and the steel, and that's it on the frame cost because everything else is ready to go. I'd save a ton that can go to needed brewday stuff, and materials....and get me going!

Thanks for the perspective, buddy. Very helpful.

 

[Dog House Brew]

OK, great information. Gives me some things to consider - thanks. Per below, I don't want to spend any money on the frame that I don't need to - it can sure be used in other brewing needs. I am strongly leaning to stainless because of what I thought was a better functionality, durability, across time. Like I say below, and like the brewer I've been in touch implied, if uncoated mild could hold for 20 years as an outside (protected) rig, there'd be zero question for me. I've got round heat shields in ss from Brewer's Hardware already - is there a problem joining ss to mild, anywhere? Because I'm also thinking of making only the "hot" parts stainless, and keeping the rest mild.

I can see this decision is going to take longer than I'd originally thought, lol.

Thanks again.

You can weld stainless to carbon steel. I could put my stand outside without paint, and my kid could use is 30 years from now. I would not make anything less than 10ga/1/8”. I’ll see if I can dig up my build pics of my stand. Like I said if I were building mode#2, mild frame, shrouds stainless. I have zero problem with mine being all mild steel. I had the money and the ability to fab mine out of stainless. I couldn’t see spending the money for it. My stand really hasn’t changed in the years of Brewing with it. Do I think stainless is Mac Daddy, yes I do. Would I do mild again, yes.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Also, I’ll add that I would not arc weld stainless, TIG only IMO.

 

[casualbrewer]

I'm not worried at all about aesthetics, just looking for functionality. If uncoated mild really could hold up 60 gallons across its frame for 20 years, I'd completely be down with that. If using a standard electrode on stainless, I know it will be ugly but I thought that was taboo, mixing stainless and mild in a weld, because you'll induce corrosion. Funny you say this though because I'm reading through some books and the first "tig" machine they show is an ancient buzzbox. Looks like I need to read the chapter, and check out the vids. Thanks.

They make a few different stainless stick electrodes. Some for stainless on stainless and others that can weld mild to stainless. I wouldnt stick weld stainless with a standard mild steel electrode though. Shoot they even got aluminum electrodes but they are probably best for in field emergency work.

 

[user 246304]

You can weld stainless to carbon steel. I could put my stand outside without paint, and my kid could use is 30 years from now. I would not make anything less than 10ga/1/8”. I’ll see if I can dig up my build pics of my stand. Like I said if I were building mode#2, mild frame, shrouds stainless. I have zero problem with mine being all mild steel. I had the money and the ability to fab mine out of stainless. I couldn’t see spending the money for it. My stand really hasn’t changed in the years of Brewing with it. Do I think stainless is Mac Daddy, yes I do. Would I do mild again, yes.

Thanks Dog House, more great info. I was going with 16, but this was on the basis of stainless, or if mild, painted. Is your going with that thickness on the basis of untreated mild, so, rusting over time? My guy actually quoted 11, originally. Materials: mild A36 $200, ss 304, $430.

 

[user 246304]

Also, I’ll add that I would not arc weld stainless, TIG only IMO.

Is that because it's a PITA, or just difficult to get a good, clean weld (add in, complete noob here).

Man, TIG is the bomb. I'd love to learn it but I understand mastering Oxy is probably the best first step...

 

[user 246304]

They make a few different stainless stick electrodes. Some for stainless on stainless and others that can weld mild to stainless. I wouldnt stick weld stainless with a standard mild steel electrode though. Shoot they even got aluminum electrodes but they are probably best for in field emergency work.

Casual, you're talking SMAW, and not MIG, right? Never knew they had something that could join mild to ss. Interesting.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I was more concerned with strength when hot. When I crank the burners, the rig can get red hot. It rolls easily with casters. It is pennies more for 1/8”. There is enough meat to really flow the metal together. Like I said, my structure is 1.5” x 1/8” angle. I made it for cheap and it is overkill strong. I’ll dig up a pic tonight. Pictures make a difference.

 

[user 246304]

Thanks Dog House. Sorry, I spaced you mentioned it was 1/8, your angle.

 

[socalboomer]

Smaw meaning stick welding (shielded metal arc welding) ... Better to start with than oxy-acetylene.

But again, problem is realizing when you have a welding that's good. I've seen and made a TON of welds that looked great, and looked solid, but absolutely did not pass a destructive test... You know?

I'd hate to have my first welds tested by putting 30+ gallons of hot water plus hot burners on them...

Play first, destroy so you see, then build!

 

[user 246304]

Boomer, maybe I was just trying to fast track to TIG, because a lot of the books I have been reading caution "Don't even THINK about TIG welding until you master Oxy!" or some variation.

Thank you for the post, hadn't thought about that. I think I was lucky on my first rig - 1 x 1 mild, flux core MIG, and seriously crappy welding holding 3 kegs on a 2-tier. Makes me cringe, thinking back now...!

 

[casualbrewer]

Casual, you're talking SMAW, and not MIG, right? Never knew they had something that could join mild to ss. Interesting.

Yes sir. Smaw or stick welding is actually very versatile and tends to let beginners create more of a structurally sound weld right off the bat. I actually just bought a small inverter stick machine and have been playing with it a good bit. I am still a newbie but I feel like I have a good understanding of it. Watched tons of video on it. However most people can probably make a mig weld look better when first learning if you have your settings correct. Go on YouTube and look up stick welding SS and such. You will find some good videos.

 

[user 246304]

Thanks Casual. If interested, Sandyeggoxj turned me on to a bunch of MIG how to videos, I'm yet to go through them. I'm grateful to Sandy for pointing them out - the youtuber really puts together some nice stuff, IMO.

 

[wyowolf]

I will say welding SS is MUCH harder than carbon steel. I have to weld some SS thin sheeting to my BIAB basket with mesh sides, was killing my efficiency, and it was quite difficult to get a good puddle without blowing through it. I thought it was just me so i grabbed some box cutter blades, same thickness of .020, and welded them together without issue... practice practice practice!!

though welding thicker SS may not be as challenging, I havent tried that yet...

TIG welder set about 15 amps

 

[cegan09]

I know this is a zombie thread revival, but my $0.02.

Materials: regular steels is just fine. Stainless is cool because it's shiny, but it sure isn't needed for a stand. As long as you aren't storing it outside in the elements it will be fine. Do not overthink this. If you really just want stainless because of the bling factor that's fine, but do not think that you need stainless for it to survive.

Welding: I teach complete noobs to weld with both MIG and TIG. You do NOT need to start at Oxy before going to TIG. In fact I'd almost stay avoid it. TIG does take a lot of practice though, especially if you've never done any welding, but it can be done. If you can find a local school or makerspace that gives classes, take them. Having live feedback is invaluable. Start with regular mild steel and practice practice practice. Stainless is not hard, it's just more of a drama queen. It doesn't conduct heat as well as mild steel, so you need less power in the weld, and you need to think about warp prevention more. Thin stuff will always be harder, but regular thicknesses are a joy to weld in stainless.

MIG can do stainless, but you really need a decent machine, plus special wire, plus expensive gas. If you're limiting yourself to a cheap MIG/flux core machine as your gateway then just stick to regular steel. I like to start people on MIG when they learn to weld because it's so much easier to pick up, but I've started several people on TIG as their first learned process and they pick it up fine. You won't lay instagram quality stack of dime beads right away, but who cares.

 

[wyowolf]

I would pretty much agree 100%. I used to stick/oxy weld fairly well 20 years ago... TIG to me seems a bit easier... less heat/splatter... watching youtube videos helped a lot to know how to hold the torch etc... I agree someone to give you live feedback would be super helpful...I thought i would have trouble doing the razor blades, but really it wasnt that bad... I think the issue with the thin SS is it tends to warp a bit and the halfs separate and then it gets messed up... like you said, practice practice....

I know this is a zombie thread revival, but my $0.02.

Materials: regular steels is just fine. Stainless is cool because it's shiny, but it sure isn't needed for a stand. As long as you aren't storing it outside in the elements it will be fine. Do not overthink this. If you really just want stainless because of the bling factor that's fine, but do not think that you need stainless for it to survive.

Welding: I teach complete noobs to weld with both MIG and TIG. You do NOT need to start at Oxy before going to TIG. In fact I'd almost stay avoid it. TIG does take a lot of practice though, especially if you've never done any welding, but it can be done. If you can find a local school or makerspace that gives classes, take them. Having live feedback is invaluable. Start with regular mild steel and practice practice practice. Stainless is not hard, it's just more of a drama queen. It doesn't conduct heat as well as mild steel, so you need less power in the weld, and you need to think about warp prevention more. Thin stuff will always be harder, but regular thicknesses are a joy to weld in stainless.

MIG can do stainless, but you really need a decent machine, plus special wire, plus expensive gas. If you're limiting yourself to a cheap MIG/flux core machine as your gateway then just stick to regular steel. I like to start people on MIG when they learn to weld because it's so much easier to pick up, but I've started several people on TIG as their first learned process and they pick it up fine. You won't lay instagram quality stack of dime beads right away, but who cares.