Might give up on homebrew :(

[DreBourbon]

Sounds good. Thanks

 

[Zuljin]

Don't forget to rehydrate those packs before you pitch.

Ah. Another battle for the ages.

I used to make a starter 24 hours or so in advance. Then, I read about cellular mutation and generally changing the biology of the yeast to work on what the starter is rather than what the wort is. Here's the thing about that, and I operate an activated sludge wastewater facility. We use microbes to change one thing in water to another, and we do it by the millions of gallons.

All sugar is not the same, but it is all sugar. We're not making the yeast swap between totally different food sources or completely different environments. They may have to change their eating habits a little, but it's not a drastic change. The drastic change is when they deplete their food source and increase the alcohol content. That happens in the wort. I wasn't making 5%+ ABV starters that went for two weeks.

We buy yeast of a particular strain. These are not wildly diverse populations of microbes. We're not going to make it to where microbe W takes over microbe A by changing the environment to suit one over the other. There isn't that diversity present to begin with in the pre selected population we deliberately pitch.

We're not changing the environment enough, nor dealing with a large enough environment, for it to really matter.

It is possible to screw up the food to microorganisms ratio, F/M, enough to starve our "bugs", but it's not probable. The biggest, realest drawback to making large long time starters with dry yeast is that it's just unnecessary. Dry pitching works fine. Rehydrating in a food source for a few hours works fine. So does making starters, but after reading, brewing, and going back and forth over the matter, I just don't see the benefit. I now rehydrate, and everything is okay.

 

[GrogNerd]

I'd go with

1. quality of ingredients
2. water

fixes

1. make sure the hopped LME is fresh as possible. I'd suggest going with dry extract + specialty grains if possible and pick the hops you want
   you can do a partial boil if you don't have a big enough pot or strong enough heat source, then top off to desired batch size
2. with extract, the minerals have already been added, so you're better off with RO or distilled water, rather than tap

 

[jgarretson]

You mention you keg, are you serving through a tap of some sort I assume. Are you cleaning your tap lines?

All of the suggestions in the other replies are great but I know my tapped beer had a much different flavor than when I bottle, one that could be described as sour when I don't clean my lines.

Honestly we as homebrewers manage to complicate the living heck out of this hobby. If you do start making changes, just make one per batch so you have some controls. And check out brulosophy for some interesting findings on all the complications we all preach as gospel on these boards.

 

[DreBourbon]

So I think I figured it out and before everyone calls me an idiot ( I guess I am) I realized my mistake.

When I first started brewing I bought a used kit online and it came with an auto syphon (see where I'm going here). I've been using this syphon to transfer every batch I've ever made. I'd sanitize before every use but I'm thinking this is what's contaminating my batches. Makes sense? And yes I know "Do not buy used brewing equipment " learned that the hard way.

 

[Kjay]

Hey DreBourbon if the offer still stands with Kombat about being able to participate during on of his Brew Days I would. I found I gained tons being able to participate during brew days at my friends place prior to me getting my own system. As well as having the experience there for a brewday of your own. Lots of questions and conversation about technique, process etc will come about.

Good Luck,

Kris

 

[GrogNerd]

So I think I figured it out and before everyone calls me an idiot ( I guess I am) I realized my mistake.

When I first started brewing I bought a used kit online and it came with an auto syphon (see where I'm going here). I've been using this syphon to transfer every batch I've ever made. I'd sanitize before every use but I'm thinking this is what's contaminating my batches. Makes sense? And yes I know "Do not buy used brewing equipment " learned that the hard way.

lol. I just bought a used auto-siphon

but dedicated to use on my Basque (sour) cider, not my beer

 

[KartRacer54]

Yooper has the answer. Don't give up just change how you do things. Beer kits with DME work great. I am all grain Brewer and still use kits for quick turnaround.
Keep working your process you will get great beer.

 

[DreBourbon]

lol. I just bought a used auto-siphon

but dedicated to use on my Basque (sour) cider, not my beer

Oh you're so funny.

 

[UndeadFred]

What Yooper said on water plus watching your temperature control during ferment. Do a darker colored beer to take out pH as a variable.

Bleach that auto siphon or get a new one. Do the same with your fermenters. Quat sanitizer (quaternary ammonium chloride) works as well as Bleach if you are afraid of a bleach taste but both need to be 100% rinsed off.

I'm thinking if you had it both on all grain and extract (if I read the first post right) that temperature control might be your biggest problem. Infections usually will eventually manifest themselves as a pellicle, and water issues.. well are different off flavors.

Don't give up if you enjoy doing it... think of running down this problem as the next fun goal. Clean everything as well as you can, use a different sanitizer than you normally do for this cleaning... then use RO or distilled water, and then make sure your fermentation is temp controlled. If that doesn't do it then I'd start to panic. Good luck man...

 

[The_Bishop]

Ah. Another battle for the ages.

I used to make a starter 24 hours or so in advance. Then, I read about cellular mutation and generally changing the biology of the yeast to work on what the starter is rather than what the wort is. Here's the thing about that, and I operate an activated sludge wastewater facility. We use microbes to change one thing in water to another, and we do it by the millions of gallons.

All sugar is not the same, but it is all sugar. We're not making the yeast swap between totally different food sources or completely different environments. They may have to change their eating habits a little, but it's not a drastic change. The drastic change is when they deplete their food source and increase the alcohol content. That happens in the wort. I wasn't making 5%+ ABV starters that went for two weeks.

We buy yeast of a particular strain. These are not wildly diverse populations of microbes. We're not going to make it to where microbe W takes over microbe A by changing the environment to suit one over the other. There isn't that diversity present to begin with in the pre selected population we deliberately pitch.

We're not changing the environment enough, nor dealing with a large enough environment, for it to really matter.

It is possible to screw up the food to microorganisms ratio, F/M, enough to starve our "bugs", but it's not probable. The biggest, realest drawback to making large long time starters with dry yeast is that it's just unnecessary. Dry pitching works fine. Rehydrating in a food source for a few hours works fine. So does making starters, but after reading, brewing, and going back and forth over the matter, I just don't see the benefit. I now rehydrate, and everything is okay.

I don't know what you're talking about here, but rehydrating yeast is not 'making a starter' and dry pitching results in roughly 50% of the cells remaining viable. Dry pitching is not recommended by *anyone* with any knowledge of yeast.

 

[mongoose33]

I don't know what you're talking about here, but rehydrating yeast is not 'making a starter' and dry pitching results in roughly 50% of the cells remaining viable. Dry pitching is not recommended by *anyone* with any knowledge of yeast.

I don't want to get into a big argument here, but I pitch Safale S-04 dry, and the makers recommend exactly that on the package.

Here's what it says on the packet: Dosage is 11.5g (one package) into 20-30 liters. Pitching: "Sprinkle into wort."

No rehydration, no starter, just sprinkle. I suspect they know something about yeast....


I've used this yeast a number of times and made very good beer with it. Usually have krausen within 12 hours, and it is generally finished by 5 days.

I've also made starters out of Wyeast and WLP, and they worked well too. And it's certainly possible that if I rehydrated the dry yeast or did so and created a starter, it might work even better. May try that some day.

But the idea that sprinkling dry yeast into the wort is somehow terrible is borne out neither by the makers of that yeast or the results I've obtained.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

I've been brewing for about 1 year now and started off with extract kits and found they had a "funny" taste to them. Brewed about 20 of those before switching to all grains. I found I had better results with all grain but again not quite as good as my local brew pub or a commercial beer. I know I can't master the art of brewing in 1 year but I'm starting to think I'm either doing something wrong or maybe I have a "picky" pallet. Not sure. Any suggestions ?

I'll keep my advise long and complex

I've been brewing on and off because of money and partners for a long time. I think I'm at about 5 or 6 years. My first go arounds I got some kits and followed the instructions and the beers were like you said. Something wasn't quite right. Eventually things got really nasty and sour. So I stepped back and read cover to cover How to Brew and the Complete Joy of Homebrewing, and found out my mistakes. I hammered them out. Made the instant switch to partial mash and my beers were excellent. I have a batch of a belgian golden strong from I think 4 years ago that still to this day is holding up. Honestly my mistakes were in cleanliness. I ditched the onestar "sanitizer" for Starsan. That was my biggest thing. That and learning the why and following the reason for those steps.

 

[bolus14]

I have been brewing for around 3.5 years now and have never had off flavors, made a couple batches that weren't good, but those problems were in the recipes. As a few others have stated I would lean towards cleanliness being the issue. Somewhere i have hear that many pro brewers will tell you not to go pro unless you like cleaning the equipment, it's 90% cleaning and 10% brewing...

Use pbw and clean everything really well, then use star San to sanitize things as you use them. I say to us these two products because they're proven to be reliable, not saying bleach or iodophor aren't, just saying that these two are probably the most widely used and recommended.

 

[kh54s10]

I don't want to get into a big argument here, but I pitch Safale S-04 dry, and the makers recommend exactly that on the package.

Here's what it says on the packet: Dosage is 11.5g (one package) into 20-30 liters. Pitching: "Sprinkle into wort."

No rehydration, no starter, just sprinkle. I suspect they know something about yeast....


I've used this yeast a number of times and made very good beer with it. Usually have krausen within 12 hours, and it is generally finished by 5 days.

I've also made starters out of Wyeast and WLP, and they worked well too. And it's certainly possible that if I rehydrated the dry yeast or did so and created a starter, it might work even better. May try that some day.

But the idea that sprinkling dry yeast into the wort is somehow terrible is borne out neither by the makers of that yeast or the results I've obtained.

While sprinkling dry yeast on the wort will work (is not terrible) and is what is on the package, if you go to the dry yeast manufacturer's website you will probably find the recommendation to re-hydrate.

What they know is that the average brewer does an average beer and they don't want to complicate things for the less accomplished brewer. They know it will ferment the average beer....

You say when you sprinkle the yeast you get krausen in 12 hours... When I pitch rehydrated yeast I often get the beginnings of krausen in as little as 4 hours.

If you just want to make beer, dry pitch or use liquid yeast out of the package. If you want to give your beer the best chance to be the best it can be - rehydrate or make a starter.

Though I can't say how much my beer improved by rehydrating or starters because I have only dry pitched 2 batches and have never used liquid yeast without making a starter.

 

[kombat]

I pitch Safale S-04 dry, and the makers recommend exactly that on the package.

Here's what it says on the packet: Dosage is 11.5g (one package) into 20-30 liters. Pitching: "Sprinkle into wort."

The data sheet on the manufacturer's website says:

Rehydration Instructions
Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 27°C ± 3°C (80°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes. Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.

Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F). Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition.

They list the "sprinkle dry" instructions as an "alternative" to the preferred method, i.e., rehydration.

But the idea that sprinkling dry yeast into the wort is somehow terrible is borne out neither by the makers of that yeast or the results I've obtained.

Actually, it comes from the definitive book "Yeast," which cites research that concludes that sprinkling dry yeast directly into wort reduces cell viability by up to 50%. One of the authors of "Yeast" is Chris White, founder and owner of Whitelabs Yeast. So yes, indeed one of the "makers of yeast" does indeed recommend against sprinkling dry.

 

[mongoose33]

The data sheet on the manufacturer's website says:

Quote:
Rehydration Instructions
Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 27°C ± 3°C (80°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes. Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.

Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F). Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes, then mix the wort using aeration or by wort addition.

They list the "sprinkle dry" instructions as an "alternative" to the preferred method, i.e., rehydration.

I appreciate your and kh54s10's discussion on this, especially the tone. No "you dummy, you!" rhetoric, just reasoned and even discussion.

That said, I'm a little surprised they wouldn't have said, on the sachet itself, "rehydrate; if you can't, you can sprinkle, but the preferred method is rehydrate."

Even in the data sheet you reference, it doesn't say recommended or preferred; it says rehydration instructions and an alternative is to pitch dry, directly into the wort.

Actually, it comes from the definitive book "Yeast," which cites research that concludes that sprinkling dry yeast directly into wort reduces cell viability by up to 50%. One of the authors of "Yeast" is Chris White, founder and owner of Whitelabs Yeast. So yes, indeed one of the "makers of yeast" does indeed recommend against sprinkling dry.

I have that book, have read it (I'm in the HOPS book of that series right now, have read MALT and WATER).

Here's the problem I have: Chris White is a competitor to Fermentis, so I won't take everything he says at face value, absolutely. That doesn't mean he's doing that, and I'm not trying to cast aspersions, but one always should ask where a person's vested interests lie, if they have any. It's just the normal caution of a scientist, which I am.

Further, and why I'm not sure about all this, our resident Brulosopher did a dry vs. rehydrated exbeeriment in which detectable differences did not result; that said, it was a lager not an ale, Danstar yeast not Fermentis, and it's only one trial (see? as a scientist, I'm always looking for reasons why a conclusion may be incorrect; that's either an admirable trait or a character flaw, you decide ).

I'm going to have to test this myself at some point; I'd rather do a side-by-side comparison with the same wort, but I'm unsure if I can pull that off given my equipment. I have two fermentors, thought about doing two batches, splitting each into the fermentors so the wort would be the same in each and then sprinkle dry or rehydrated yeast into each. I wish I had a boil kettle and mash tun big enough for a 10-gallon batch.

If rehydrated yeast gives me a better shot at better-tasting beer, it's worth a trial.

 

[GrogNerd]

Jamil Zainasheff, the other author of Yeast, is always saying, "yeah, you can make beer by doing {whatever}, but to make the best beer possible..."

I've always said there are very few "you should"s or "you shouldn't"s in this hobby

but it is full of "best practices" and I think re-hydrating is one, not a "you should"

 

[madscientist451]

I don't know what you're talking about here, but rehydrating yeast is not 'making a starter' and dry pitching results in roughly 50% of the cells remaining viable. Dry pitching is not recommended by *anyone* with any knowledge of yeast.

Seems like a good experiment would be splitting a batch 3 ways and sprinkling So4 in dry, Re-hydrating So4, and using a (similar) liquid yeast in a starter.
I'm thinking the fermentation rates would be different, but would anyone be able to tell the difference by tasting?
I usually use liquid yeast but also have used dry yeast both added dry and re-hydrated but never did any serious tests.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

My 2 cents. I've always rehydrated my yeast for the same reason I've always activated yeast when making pizza, better to be safe than sorry. I'm not a scientist so I don't really understand, but I know yeast are alive and if you can make sure they're still alive before using them and get them ready to go, things will be better.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

I'm going to have to test this myself at some point; I'd rather do a side-by-side comparison with the same wort, but I'm unsure if I can pull that off given my equipment. I have two fermentors, thought about doing two batches, splitting each into the fermentors so the wort would be the same in each and then sprinkle dry or rehydrated yeast into each. I wish I had a boil kettle and mash tun big enough for a 10-gallon batch.

If rehydrated yeast gives me a better shot at better-tasting beer, it's worth a trial.

I think you're over thinking this. If you just did one batch and split it truly in 2 and then split a package of yeast in 2 and went from there you wouldn't need to have 10 gallons.

 

[Poopsmitherson]

My first few batches had a distinctive "funny Homebrew" flavor as well. It got better as I refined the process. Cooler fermenting temps made a big difference for me.

For reference, pick an off flavor, any off flavor: https://www.cicerone.org/sites/default/files/resources/off_flavor.pdf

 

[Peruvian802]

I think if you want your beer to taste as good as commercial versions, you are going to have to consider changing your process to be a little more like an actual brewery. Your extract beers are nothing more than adding water to a pre-hopped can of wort goo. I can guarantee that there are little to no commercial brewers who are doing this.

 

[GrogNerd]

au contraire mon frere brasseur,

more than a few members of my brew club, including BJCP judges, preferred my extract + specialty grain Deschutes' Fresh Squeezed clone over the real thing and not one had any idea it was an extract version

I attributed it to the freshness of mine vs an Oregon beer shipped to the east coast, but still... to say you have to brew like the big boys to make beer taste as good as theirs is profoundly ignorant. also: a good many commercial beers are complete crap.


little to no commercial brewers use converted cooler mashtuns, either. yet you can make outstanding beer in one.

your argument is invalid

 

[woo_pig]

I think this thread has gone off course .

 

[GrogNerd]

I think this thread has gone off course .

General Chit Chat (SALUTE!)

it's allowed

 

[Citizen86]

au contraire mon frere brasseur,

more than a few members of my brew club, including BJCP judges, preferred my extract + specialty grain Deschutes' Fresh Squeezed clone over the real thing and not one had any idea it was an extract version

I attributed it to the freshness of mine vs an Oregon beer shipped to the east coast, but still... to say you have to brew like the big boys to make beer taste as good as theirs is profoundly ignorant. also: a good many commercial beers are complete crap.


little to no commercial brewers use converted cooler mashtuns, either. yet you can make outstanding beer in one.

your argument is invalid

I don't think he was saying extract itself is the issue.... he was saying DreBourbon's method here was not producing optimal results:

So for extract kits my process is fairly easy, clean then sanitize a carboy while my extract can is in hot water, dump the extract can into the carboy, add my fermentable (usually lme or sometimes dextrose ) then my water top up, rehidrate yeast and make sure pitching temp is correct as per yeast package and done.

As in, he was suggesting not doing a no-boil method using only pre-hopped extract. I would have to agree, if you want quality beer you should at least be boiling and using some fresh hops/pellets and some specialty grain if the beer type calls for it. Not to mention the freshest extract you can find.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

Ihonestly didn't know pre-hopped malt extract was a thing until I read How to Brew. My old LHBS didn't sell them so it never was a consideration for me. I also rarely use LME and almost exclusively used DME. Had better results with DME than the few times I used LME though I was a much better brewer when I was using DME.

 

[Peruvian802]

au contraire mon frere brasseur,

more than a few members of my brew club, including BJCP judges, preferred my extract + specialty grain Deschutes' Fresh Squeezed clone over the real thing and not one had any idea it was an extract version

I attributed it to the freshness of mine vs an Oregon beer shipped to the east coast, but still... to say you have to brew like the big boys to make beer taste as good as theirs is profoundly ignorant. also: a good many commercial beers are complete crap.


little to no commercial brewers use converted cooler mashtuns, either. yet you can make outstanding beer in one.

your argument is invalid

please see Citizen86's reply.

Using extract can make great beers, but the dump and fill versions usually aren't that good. The hop flavors and aromas are usually pretty poor and they don't usually come with particularly interesting yeast (from a guy that loves US05 and Notty).

 

[GrogNerd]

Oh... you must think I'm a dick.

You shared it with a dick.