Methods for blending yeasts?

[Salanis]

So, I'm putting together a recipe to recreate a beer that I brewed at a local microbrewery. Problem was, the brewmaster there came up with the recipe, and it now seems to have disappeared. It was one of the best beers I'd ever had, a spicy holiday red ale with no added spice.

This spice hinged on a combination of two yeasts. As I recall they were a Weizen yeast and a Belgian strain. I'm currently fermenting a Saison with WL568 and will be doing a weizen using WLP380. I figure when each is done, I can use a culture from each for my new brew.

So once I have my two yeasts, what's probably the best way to combine them? Here are some thoughts I was having:

1. Make one starter of both healthy cultures. Pitch that.
2. Make two starters, one for each yeast. Then, pitch them together.
3. Make two starters, but pitch them at different times. Probably pitch the Saison first, then the weizen 3-5 days later.

 

[erkwist]

Not sure about the making only one starter, but it seems like pitching them at the same time would be better, otherwise one is going to have taken over and not leave room for the other. I would pitch as even amounts as possible, and at the same time.

 

[BillyGHusk]

Take this idea knowing that I havnt been brewing all that long. But what about brewing a batch with each yeast separate, and then blending them. This would give you the ability to use more of the beer(yeast) that you want to be more dominate. This would also allow you to ferment at the idea condition for each separate yeast, there in getting the best from each strain.

Just a thought.
BGH

 

[Salanis]

After chatting with one of the brewers at my local home brewery, I'm leaning towards pitching at separate times.

Probably brew the holiday ale the same day I bottle the Saison. Then I just pitch the holiday ale strait onto the Saison yeast cake. Give it 1-2 weeks for the Saison to do most of its magic, but not totally clean up everything, then rack it over to a secondary fermentor. Probably even aerate it a bit, because then I'll add a pound of Belgian candy sugar and 1/2 pound DME before throwing in a healthy weizen yeast starter and leaving that for another 4-5 weeks.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

After chatting with one of the brewers at my local home brewery, I'm leaning towards pitching at separate times.

Probably brew the holiday ale the same day I bottle the Saison. Then I just pitch the holiday ale strait onto the Saison yeast cake. Give it 1-2 weeks for the Saison to do most of its magic, but not totally clean up everything, then rack it over to a secondary fermentor. Probably even aerate it a bit, because then I'll add a pound of Belgian candy sugar and 1/2 pound DME before throwing in a healthy weizen yeast starter and leaving that for another 4-5 weeks.

Do not aerate, unless you find the additional cardboard taste desirable.

 

[Salanis]

Do not aerate, unless you find the additional cardboard taste desirable.

Well, there's the thing. I'm adding a second yeast that needs to take hold, and won't the yeast need some aeration in order to get started? Do I just throw another yeast starter in without any additional oxygen?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Well, there's the thing. I'm adding a second yeast that needs to take hold, and won't the yeast need some aeration in order to get started? Do I just throw another yeast starter in without any additional oxygen?

You could.

I think the problem you're going to run across is that the first yeast is going to consume all the sugars it can until there is nothing left they can consume. If you add more yeast after this, they won't have anything to eat, so they can't reproduce or produce additional flavors. You could always try to get most of the initial yeast out and then bottle with a different strain, but you're not going to get substantial flavor out of the second yeast.

You can try to dump the second yeast during fermentation, but the success fo the second yeast will be variable based upon how it competes with the first yeast.

I'd rather dump both yeasts in at the same time and turn them loose.

 

[Salanis]

The first yeast will be a Saison. It will not have finished consuming all the sugars in only 1 week. I will also be adding extra sugar (1# Belgian Candy sugar 1/2#DME) to give the second yeast something to enjoy.

My understanding is that just throwing both in at the same time will result in one yeast becoming dominant and ousting the other.

 

[maskednegator]

Split the batch and blend them, IMO. Throwing one in after a few weeks will make it more likely that the original will outcompete the second. Think about it, which yeast would you expect to dominate if you pitched one with a 2L starter and the other with a 5 gallon starter?

 

[Rushis]

I think your on the right track with the racking and pitching a new yeast in the secondary with more sugar. The optimal temperature range for Saison yeast is pretty high (72F?) whereas the weizen yeast probably tolerates 64-70. If your temp is at the low end of Weizen range the Saison yeast will be working very very slowly allowing the weizen to take hold and contribute.

 

[Salanis]

Actually the saison is happiest at around 80-85. Things are a bit warm, but I'm thinking the weizen will get to sit at around 70. Plus, Saisons are notorious for taking hold really fast and being voracious at first, then sluggish for a long while later.

If I pitch both at the same time, the Saison will probably take off sooner. Either that or one yeast will dominate based on temperature. Warmer, and it goes all saison. Cooler, and it goes all weizen. In the middle, and I have two yeasts that are equally unhappy.

Repitching was suggested by a brewer at my favorite local brewpub.



So, I'm still leaning towards repitching with some extra sugar for the weizen. I'm just not sure how much (if at all) to aerate if I do that.

The brewing network has some shows with interviews with a guy from White Labs. I believe they do discuss blending their yeasts. So I'm going to listen to those for some more expert advice.