Metallic/Cardboard Flavor KEEPS COMING BACK TO HAUNT ME!!!

[chapa]

It tastes like metallic to me, because its sharp in the nose(almost like inhaling vicks, but not quite as strong), and overpowers the flavor. However, I am starting to taste/smell the "cardboard" that people are talking about oxidation being the culprit of. Its horrible.

Here's the weird thing though, most people say it takes a while for oxidation to show up, well the current one has only been bottled for 1 month. While I was thinking, "maybe it just needs more time"...I just don't believe it would still have that off-flavor after a month in bottles. It tasted OK at first, just had a more ESB bite to it than a "brown ale" which is what it was. I thought it was good, though. After about 2 weeks in the bottle this taste started to develop. It was still OK at first, just a slight metallic/cardboard flavor, but had some great roasted/coffee notes...not its just overpowered and undrinkable!

I know I had a slight leak on the bottling buckets spighot when I bottled this stuff. Maybe lost a drop every 5-10 seconds. I've seen a few people mention this, but I don't think I was getting air bubbles or anything. I'm also not OVERLY careful when racking to the bottling bucket, but I'm by no means clumsy with it. I try to keep it smooth-however I do remember running it down the side of the bucket instead of just putting it to the very bottom. I know sometimes I lose the siphon and have blasted some bubbles into the beer during racking, but the last ones I remember doing that with, turned out just fine.

Also, I made 10g of this current bad batch, and the 5g that I kegged was incredible!! Its the 5g that I bottled that turned out bad. I did use different yeast(WLP002 instead of ESB-1968) Oddly the WLP002 had the more ESB flavor to it...

I know the water around here is actually pretty good. I've spoken with many local brewers, and breweries, and nobody does water treatments, or even really uses filters. I use a whole house filtration and potable hose. So I'm not worried about the water quality. It has to be something else.

This is the 5th beer I've had this issue with...and is really starting to make me (three of the 5 were all derived from of 1 bad batch, one was because I re-used the yeast from a batch that somehow got the flavor(this is odd because it was prior to racking-but I dry hopped on top of the yeast and re-used it), then I used the same bottling bucket that I, for some reason, used as a secondary for the 2nd nasty batch-I couldn't get the bucket clean from it). The other batch was a pumpkin ale, but that was when I used a regular garden hose and old fittings on my mash tun(zinc & black rubber fenders). I've since upgraded everything.

I plan to just be more careful in general when racking, but does anyone have any ideas? Its odd, because most people don't seem too worried about it. I'm going to bring a bottle to the next club meet, and get some more suggestions, but hopefully I can gain a little insight from you folks as well.

At least I still have some great homebrews to drink while I try to nail this down!

 

[jkreuze]

If the kegged half-batch tastes good, but the bottled half-batch tasted good but then got bad in the bottle, I am wondering if you have an infection in the bottled batch, maybe coming from your bottling bucket? But you just replaced your bottling bucket, so maybe not.

If the bottled beers all suck but the kegged beer is good, and it all came from one batch, it sounds like it has to be a problem coming from the bottling process, or the bottles. That's my theory, at least.

Good luck!

 

[BrookdaleBrew]

But you just replaced your bottling bucket, so maybe not.

Yeah, but what about tubing and bottling wand? I think those two things are much more likely to harbor bacteria than the bucket itself.

 

[wyzazz]

Yeah, but what about tubing and bottling wand? I think those two things are much more likely to harbor bacteria than the bucket itself.

I'll agree with the above, if all these "bad batches" have been bottled then I'd suspect the bottling bucket, bottling wand, tubing, bottles, caps, or priming method. Do you bulk prime? Do you use carb drops? How are you pouring your beer out of the bottle? Decanting and not pouring the yeast cake at the bottom of the bottle?

 

[jkreuze]

For me the tubing / bottling wand are easier to sanitize with confidence because they can be easily immersed completely in Star-San solution for as long as I feel like leaving them at the bottom of a bucket of sanitizer; a bottling bucket, on the other hand, is getting scrubbed and then rolled around/splashed with sanitizer on the inside, which has more potential for missing a spot.

Maybe it is a problem with the bottles, too--how were they sanitized? Star San? Heat? Bleach? (ew)

No idea if any of these are the answer but they are things to consider.

 

[chapa]

The thing is, I've had GOOD batches come out in bottles recently. My last one, and 3 batches ago.

I have not replaced my bottling bucket, I just had a small drip out the spighot(I remember specifically on this batch)but it was only a drop every so often, and didn't seem to cause turbulence or air bubbles(don't know if that even matters), but maybe I need to replace the spighot.

I did replace my tube lately, because I would use it as a bottling tube, then I would use it also as a blow-off tube(and even with soaking in PBW/Star-San-still had gunk in it), but again its made good batches, and I almost want to say I replaced the tube BEFORE bottling this batch(can't remember for sure). I don't feel like I OVERLY clean my bottling wand though, while it does get set in the sanitizing bucket, and I'll bring some of the sanitizer up into it, but thats about it.

My bottling bucket gets a good spray and wipe of PBW, then rinsed well and star-san'd. I try to make sure its good and sanitized, but I do remember that when I did this batch, I got the equip ready, but didn't end up bottling the same day, so I let the sanitizer sit in the bucket for a day or two, not necessarily sealed and with a bottle covering the airlock hole in the top of the bucket lid. Then swirled it around really good and ran it through the siphon. Don't think it would matter, but who knows.

I usually just rinse the bottles really good after decanting, and set them to drip dry, then when its time to bottle, I use a vinator w Star-San and bottle tree. The only time they see cleaner is if they are used bottles w the labels, then I'll let them soak in cleaner and get the labels off.

I don't ever purge anything w/ CO2.

I agree its got to be with my bottling process, because they are always good until then, but 1/3 of the batches that have been bottled, have not come out good(for one reason or another) the other 2/3 has been fine. The weirdest part is these flavors come through almost immediately in the bottles. Its not like it takes months to develop.

Thanks for all of the replies. Hopefully this is the last bad batch to come through the pipeline! I really hope it goes away after another month in bottles, but I'm not counting on it.

 

[wyzazz]

I'd get a new bottling bucket/lid/spigot/wand/tubing. It's not all that expensive and would probably save you a little frustration. This would really leave only the bottles/caps to blame, or the process you use. Do you clean/sanitize your bucket lids?

 

[KevinW]

I have been a little "sloppy" when racking my finished beers and not had "oxidizing" issues, I think you would have to put a lot of air into the beer and also let it sit for a long time before the oxidizing issues would surface! Not that it CAN'T happen though!

I rely on Oxyclean-free and soak all my "post-boil" equipment in Oxyclean (including bottles) and then sanitize. I have read about pulling a cloth through tubing to get any "crud" out but I have not tried this.

I have not had any issues up to now! I use very hot water but not boiling when I use oxyclean (but have also let bottles soak overnight in the oxyclean) and it seems to work very good. I will check the bottom of each bottle against a light to see if there is any "crud" at the bottom before sanitizing. It may be overkill but I am pretty anal about sanitizing my bottles and if I see anything I either scrub with a brush or soak them again.

Could sanitizing issues cause the "metallic/cardboard" tastes?

 

[chapa]

Maybe I need to start doing the oxy clean thing, it just seems like it takes so much PBW to make several gallons to clean with, and especially to soak all of the bottles. I never really let anything build up in the bottles, so I was never too worried about it. I always rinse them out after pouring, and drip dry them. I always heard this was fine, but maybe I should be a little more cautious.

The new bottling bucket, spigot, wand isn't a bad idea. I've been wanting to install a pick-up tube in it anyway, maybe I'll just go all out and purchase ball valves etc.

It just makes me wonder, because I don't understand why some come out fine, and others don't. My only REAL thought was just racking more carefully, but as you said it would really take a lot of oxygen to really make a difference, especially SO QUICKLY after being in the bottle. If it took several months to develop, you can bet I'd make it disappear before it ever got that bad!

 

[Brek81]

i would think that if it were the bottles.. that it would be inconsistent within the batch(eg one bottle may taste fine, and 6 may have various levels of funk).

my guess is its earlier in the system than the bottle.

 

[jmo88]

I'd say that oxidation plays a role here but a bottling infection might be the sharpness you are getting. I'd suggest pouring one of the bad bottles in a glass and let it decarbonate. Check the gravity and compare it to the gravity at bottling time. If it is lower, then you probably caught something during bottling. There are all sorts of things floating around in the air that can ruin a beer. Equipment might not be the culprit, it might be the process. Bottling is really hard, despite many people thinking of it as being a more beginner process. It is a really easy way to pick up an infection. Even big breweries can struggle with it.

 

[chapa]

i would think that if it were the bottles.. that it would be inconsistent within the batch(eg one bottle may taste fine, and 6 may have various levels of funk).

my guess is its earlier in the system than the bottle.

That is true. It always seems like its pretty consistent...if one is funked up, they are all funked up!

jmo, out of curiosity, what is the reason the gravity would go down, due to infection? Is typical oxidation, usually not "sharp" like I noted? That was why I was initially thinking "metallic", but I use SS keggles, so there is no rust or anything in my equip.

 

[jmo88]

That is true. It always seems like its pretty consistent...if one is funked up, they are all funked up!

jmo, out of curiosity, what is the reason the gravity would go down, due to infection? Is typical oxidation, usually not "sharp" like I noted? That was why I was initially thinking "metallic", but I use SS keggles, so there is no rust or anything in my equip.

Usually an infection will over-attenuate a beer. The foreign bacteria tends to eat sugars that yeast does not. So checking the gravity now is an easy way to tell if something else is going to work in there. I've had bottling infections before and it is not pleasant. I think this happens to a lot of brewers. Many people notice that the beer is fine before bottling then it becomes more and more unpleasant. Oxidation is certainly a factor, more common than infection even. Oxidation is not sharp to me, it seems just the opposite, actually: stale, cardboard.

 

[chapa]

Usually an infection will over-attenuate a beer. The foreign bacteria tends to eat sugars that yeast does not. So checking the gravity now is an easy way to tell if something else is going to work in there. I've had bottling infections before and it is not pleasant. I think this happens to a lot of brewers. Many people notice that the beer is fine before bottling then it becomes more and more unpleasant. Oxidation is certainly a factor, more common than infection even. Oxidation is not sharp to me, it seems just the opposite, actually: stale, cardboard.

Thanks a lot. That is really good info. I think I need to replace my bottling components, and get rid of the cheesy lhbs spigot, and get a real ball valve w/ pick-up tube. Honestly though, I have never taken apart the spigot. I just run a little cleaner through it(sometimes just hot water) and run sanitizer through it.

Its just really weird, that I've since bottled another batch and it seems fine so far. Granted its only been in the bottles for about a week or so now, and its pretty hoppy so maybe it overpowers that flavor, but I don't think that is the case. I tasted the current infected one a week into the bottles and it was OK also, like I said it was just more of an ESB taste(maybe it was the on-set of infection, though).

 

[chapa]

Would the pot that you boil your priming sugar in, play a role? I wouldn't think so, since you boil water in it, but it was a thought. I've used diff pots for diff batches, depending on what was clean. Just want to make sure this isn't part of the issue.

 

[wyzazz]

Do you boil in an enamel pot? If it's chipped that could certainly cause that kind of off-flavor.

 

[chapa]

I believe that's what one of them is, but is a fairly new set of pots, so I don't think its chipped or anything. They are still pretty new looking. I also use a metal(not sure if its ss or alum) pot a lot of the times. Used it this last time and didn't get any off-flavors...yet. Maybe I'll try to stick w that one, because I think I did use the enamel one on the bad batch. Can't be positive, but I'm pretty sure. Also I do leave the lid on for the end of the boil(when boiling priming sugar), to sanitize it and keep it covered. I let the steam out when its done, but this doesn't matter when just boiling water/sugar, right?

 

[wyzazz]

I believe that's what one of them is, but is a fairly new set of pots, so I don't think its chipped or anything. They are still pretty new looking. I also use a metal(not sure if its ss or alum) pot a lot of the times. Used it this last time and didn't get any off-flavors...yet. Maybe I'll try to stick w that one, because I think I did use the enamel one on the bad batch. Can't be positive, but I'm pretty sure. Also I do leave the lid on for the end of the boil(when boiling priming sugar), to sanitize it and keep it covered. I let the steam out when its done, but this doesn't matter when just boiling water/sugar, right?

I don't cover mine when I boil the priming sugar, I heat it up, dissolve the sugar, boil for 10mins, then drop it piping hot in to my sanitized bottling bucket. I immediately rack the beer on top of the priming sugar solution.

I don't think it would make a difference if you covered the sugar solution or not, but I've never seen the point.

 

[chapa]

Is it possible I've had an infection in my bottling bucket the whole time(since first infected - and then I remember fermenting in it and pulling samples from it on an old "bad" batch) that it has just been undetectable on hoppy batches? Because those are all of the ones, that went into bottles, that tasted good so far. Pumpkin, 2 browns, etc were all bad

 

[jmo88]

Is it possible I've had an infection in my bottling bucket the whole time(since first infected - and then I remember fermenting in it and pulling samples from it on an old "bad" batch) that it has just been undetectable on hoppy batches? Because those are all of the ones, that went into bottles, that tasted good so far. Pumpkin, 2 browns, etc were all bad

Or the hops prevented the infection, rather than covering them up...

I've never had good luck bottling low ABV beers. The higher alcohol and/or higher IBU beers always turned out better because they helped deter an infection. Kegging is so much easier and more reliable, especially for lower ABV beers.

 

[wyzazz]

It's possible, for peace of mind I would just replace the bottling setup.

 

[jjones17]

Possibilities I am thinking of:
- Oxidizing your priming solution. What are you using? DME?
- Oxidizing your starter
- You are using some type of Fining agent in your Kegged beer, which makes the compounds 'drop out of solution' along with the yeast. This explains why your kegged beer tastes better than the beer you bottle, from the same batch.

Anything?

 

[brewdude25]

I have a similar problem. I get a sharp taste on the back end that I am almost positive comes from some aspect of bottling. I know this because when i sample the beer prior to bottling, the beer tastes great and does not have this sharp after taste. Did you ever rule out what the cause was?

 

[C-Rider]

I keep all my hoses in the freezer. Bacteria have a hard time living in a freezer. Then I thaw them out in Star San.