Mediocre First Brew Day on the New E-HERMS Rig -- Could use some tips

[Smellyglove]

I'll just throw my two cents worth in here. Concerning controlling pump flow: I find controlling pump speed to be much easier than trying to adjust a valve. A digital readout makes it simple to make fine adjustments or to repeat a setting another day. The typical ball valves we use are just not well suited to anything other than full open or shut.

You can get the type of blichmann valves which they have on the G2-kettles online. They are easier, especially since you can mark them way more easy than a ball valve with a handle. But the line needs to be full. If you throttle back to much on them they will stop if the hose is above the valve at some point.

 

[itsnotrequired]

This is a bit nitpicking. But I'd like to add to the statement I quoted, which is in bold. That you don't need a "bigger" crush, you'd need a slower crush, since the speed of the crush is equally important as the gap of the rollers. Slower crush keeps the husks more intact. Conditioning the grains with water also helps.

no, you're description is more apt.

regarding grain conditioning, i haven't done it before so maybe i 'don't know what i'm missing'?

 

[ancientmariner52]

I condition my grain about 20 minutes before milling. I notice two benefits. The hulls seem to become sort of leathery, and are not shredded as much as when milled dry. A secondary benefit is the huge reduction in dust generated while milling. I use a Victoria corn mill, so this might be different with a roller mill, I don't know. As far as conversion in the mash, I haven't noticed any difference.

 

[Smellyglove]

no, you're description is more apt.

regarding grain conditioning, i haven't done it before so maybe i 'don't know what i'm missing'?

It sort of makes the grains (husks) more squishy, and not as brittle as when dry. Meaning they will go though the mill more intact while the interior (starch) of the grain will be crushed as before. It also starts some of the enzymes in the grain. I've never actually felt the need for this after understanding the relationship between gap between rollers and speed of milling. But it's common in commercial breweries.

 

[itsnotrequired]

seems like dust abatement may be the biggest advantage? i personally don't have any issues with getting a good grain bed or filtering and not conditioning. can't say astringency is an issue either. not saying it isn't worth doing but for me, i'm not seeing the benefit.

 

[ryanj]

seems like dust abatement may be the biggest advantage? i personally don't have any issues with getting a good grain bed or filtering and not conditioning. can't say astringency is an issue either. not saying it isn't worth doing but for me, i'm not seeing the benefit.

From what I understand, the biggest advantage is the ability to have a finer crush without obliterating the husk.

 

[Blazinlow86]

With a .035 gap and wheat in the grist your pretty much guaranteed a stuck mash/sparge. Try your next one at .050 and mill slowly. If your using wheat additionally use rice hulls. You will probably still not be able to run full speed but as long as your temp remains stable that doesn't really matter. You get best heat transfer at full speed so eventually if possible that would be the end goal. As I posted earlier I do all the above and run full speed right from the start everytime but only after going to a jaybird full size false bottom

 

[Blazinlow86]

Oh and fwiw I never stir my mash

 

[SEndorf]

Agree with Blazinlow.
I run full bore and never stir the mash. Crush at 05.
Not sure if this pertains to the OP, but one of the often missed items in troubleshooting this problem is your false bottom.
When I first built my system I had a POS bottom that stuck the mash and actually went from convex to concave from the pressure.
Getting a quality false bottom that covered the entire floor surface of my mash tun solved the problem.

 

[stickyfinger]

With a .035 gap and wheat in the grist your pretty much guaranteed a stuck mash/sparge. Try your next one at .050 and mill slowly. If your using wheat additionally use rice hulls. You will probably still not be able to run full speed but as long as your temp remains stable that doesn't really matter. You get best heat transfer at full speed so eventually if possible that would be the end goal. As I posted earlier I do all the above and run full speed right from the start everytime but only after going to a jaybird full size false bottom

nah, it won't stick. i do it all of the time. i think you probably either have to condition the malt or add rice hulls though, or it will stick.

 

[ryanj]

Agree with Blazinlow.
I run full bore and never stir the mash. Crush at 05.
Not sure if this pertains to the OP, but one of the often missed items in troubleshooting this problem is your false bottom.
When I first built my system I had a POS bottom that stuck the mash and actually went from convex to concave from the pressure.
Getting a quality false bottom that covered the entire floor surface of my mash tun solved the problem.

I have a typical dome false bottom that completely covers the bottom of my cooler with all 1/2" hardware and tubing. I can't imagine a better flowing solution given my vessel. I'm tempted to try a more coarse crush though to see what my efficiencies look like.

What mash efficiency are you getting at .05? That's pretty coarse.

 

[Blazinlow86]

nah, it won't stick. i do it all of the time. i think you probably either have to condition the malt or add rice hulls though, or it will stick.

Tell that to the op. Clearly it does or he wouldn't have asked....

 

[Blazinlow86]

I have a typical dome false bottom that completely covers the bottom of my cooler with all 1/2" hardware and tubing. I can't imagine a better flowing solution given my vessel. I'm tempted to try a more coarse crush though to see what my efficiencies look like.

What mash efficiency are you getting at .05? That's pretty coarse.

My efficiency is pretty low at 85% but it's consistent which to me is much more important. Cheers

 

[ryanj]

My efficiency is pretty low at 85% but it's consistent which to me is much more important. Cheers

85% mash efficiency is low?!

 

[Blazinlow86]

85% mash efficiency is low?!

85% is decent but I've read of people using the blichman mash tun setup getting up to 95% as it supposedly flows excellent with a tighter gap and no hulls. There so overpriced I couldn't bring myself to paying the premium for the extra effeciency

 

[ryanj]

85% is decent but I've read of people using the blichman mash tun setup getting up to 95% as it supposedly flows excellent with a tighter gap and no hulls. There so overpriced I couldn't bring myself to paying the premium for the extra effeciency

I’m having a hard time considering 85% mash efficiency anything other than superb on any system.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I'm heading toward one of these HERMS systems, reading as much as I can before I start to pull the trigger.

I have a Riptide which I plan to use for this. Full-bore is 7-gallons per minute, so when you say you're running it full-bore, does that mean the valve is wide open and you're circulating 7 gallons per minute?

That seems very fast to me, but I'm a newbie at this HERMS stuff so perhaps I don't understand.

EDITED TO ADD: My understanding, such as it is, was more consistent with what @Smellyglove says above, i.e., the flow rate needs to be tuned to a level which doesn't overly compact the grain bed.

I'd think a high flow rate would suck that grain bed down, making channeling much more likely, and inhibiting flow through parts of the grain bed which would reduce efficiency.

I run a 1/2 bbl herms system. It’s basically the blichmann pilot system that I designed before Blichmann came out with one. I pieced the system together over time and bought used gear where I could. It’s a great system because It doesn’t collapse the grain bed during recirculation and it’s completely repeatable. This system started out as a propane fired herms, then I went electric rims with gas fired kettles and finally an electric herms set up.

Literally the last thing I purchased for the system was the ridiculously priced flow meter from Blichmann. I wanted to know what my flow rate was and it was surprisingly fast. After I hooked it up I left my setting relatively the same on my pumps and started a brew day. Based on my usual valve setting I was pumping over 2.5gpm. It’s a 30 gallon mash tun and I had decent movement of wort and relatively boring brew days. I never really used rice hulls and never had stuck mashes.

Now here is the cool part, once I dialed into 1 gpm I was able to reduce my crush. Then I reduced to .75 gpm and I reduced my crush again. I ended up with a mill setting of .30 and a flow rate of .75gpm and brew house efficiency of 83%. I don’t have issues with a stuck mash, I can scale any recipe to my system and I can actually chill out and have a beer and watch a game of clean stuff without worrying about a stuck mash or channeling.

I suggest the op reduce flow with a valve after the pump and slow things down. It’s kinda counter intuitive because I assumed more flow was better but the reality on my set up is less is more.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I run a 1/2 bbl herms system. It’s basically the blichmann pilot system that I designed before Blichmann came out with one. I pieced the system together over time and bought used gear where I could. It’s a great system because It doesn’t collapse the grain bed during recirculation and it’s completely repeatable. This system started out as a propane fired herms, then I went electric rims with gas fired kettles and finally an electric herms set up.

Literally the last thing I purchased for the system was the ridiculously priced flow meter from Blichmann. I wanted to know what my flow rate was and it was surprisingly fast. After I hooked it up I left my setting relatively the same on my pumps and started a brew day. Based on my usual valve setting I was pumping over 2.5gpm. It’s a 30 gallon mash tun and I had decent movement of wort and relatively boring brew days. I never really used rice hulls and never had stuck mashes.

Now here is the cool part, once I dialed into 1 gpm I was able to reduce my crush. Then I reduced to .75 gpm and I reduced my crush again. I ended up with a mill setting of .30 and a flow rate of .75gpm and brew house efficiency of 83%. I don’t have issues with a stuck mash, I can scale any recipe to my system and I can actually chill out and have a beer and watch a game of clean stuff without worrying about a stuck mash or channeling.

I suggest the op reduce flow with a valve after the pump and slow things down. It’s kinda counter intuitive because I assumed more flow was better but the reality on my set up is less is more.

Yea the blichman false bottom is supposed to be the best. I've only ran about 40 1/2bbl batches on mine since building it but haven't had a issue with a stuck/ slow sparge since the first time. I normally mash in adjust ph and do chores or head out for errands. Cheers

 

[Smellyglove]

From what I understand, the biggest advantage is the ability to have a finer crush without obliterating the husk.

You are getting tonnes of replies and opinions. which is expected and good.

I'd say go with the same crush (if that's the crush which is normal for you), and focus on the valve which dials back down the flow, for the next one. Gap here and there, this and that. Use whatever you're getting (unless its totaly rubbish) and dial in you system to that, then do small adjustments to find your limit. Change one parameter at a time.

This way you'll also learn more. You'll be able to say good or bad if you come across a situation where you need to make call on it.

Experiment, systematically. Find your own workflow. Zen, peace of mind. Take it for what it is after a batch, and adjust next time.

 

[jcav]

Thought I'd throw this in the mix. I have a Kal clone built with Sabco Kegs. I crush to a gap of 0.045 and I run the mill slow, up to 8 revolutions per second on the drill or less. Doesn't take that long at all at this speed but longer than letting it rip. I always use rice hulls on my 11 gallon batches, and I use more rice hulls for wheat beers. They not only help with a stuck sparge with the wheat beers, but I use them in my other beers as well, since they help regulate the temperature throughout the whole mash tun while mashing. So that is why I use them. I also always run the pumps (March pumps with Chugger stainless center inlet heads) wide open and I do not restrict them. This is what works for me on my system very well and I think everyone has to dial in their system, as what works well for me might not work well for mashing in a cooler. If you are experiencing channeling you may want to put a silicone ring around the outer edge of your false bottom, as this may help with side wall shunting.

John

 

[doug293cz]

I’m having a hard time considering 85% mash efficiency anything other than superb on any system.

With a fly sparge, excellent mash efficiency is beating the solid green line on the chart below by 2 or 3 percentage points. I've seen data from fly spargers who are able to achieve that. Note that to get that kind of mash efficiency you need to get essentially 100% conversion efficiency.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

With a .035 gap and wheat in the grist your pretty much guaranteed a stuck mash/sparge. Try your next one at .050 and mill slowly. If your using wheat additionally use rice hulls. You will probably still not be able to run full speed but as long as your temp remains stable that doesn't really matter. You get best heat transfer at full speed so eventually if possible that would be the end goal. As I posted earlier I do all the above and run full speed right from the start everytime but only after going to a jaybird full size false bottom

Anyone have any good pics of what wheat crushed with a 0.050" gap looks like?

Brew on

 

[Smellyglove]

Anyone have any good pics of what wheat crushed with a 0.050" gap looks like?

Brew on

1.27mm is a wide gap for wheat. Lage kernels, I assume. But it doesn't matter that much, as long as you mash long enough.

 

[doug293cz]

1.27mm is a wide gap for wheat. Lage kernels, I assume. But it doesn't matter that much, as long as you mash long enough.

Any uncracked wheat kernels are going to take a very long time to convert, may not be any enzymes left by then.

Brew on

 

[ryanj]

I suggest the op reduce flow with a valve after the pump and slow things down. It’s kinda counter intuitive because I assumed more flow was better but the reality on my set up is less is more.

It is definitely counter intuitive! I’m so glad I posted about this because after all the reading I did, I just assumed “more flow = better”, but thinking about all of the variables involved...this really makes sense.

I’ll dial my pump way back and watch the MT output hose to make sure it’s keeping up. During this first batch I noticed a lot of air in the line...which makes sense since it wasn’t draining as fast as the pump was pumping.

Good looking out. Can’t wait for my next batch!

 

[Blazinlow86]

Anyone have any good pics of what wheat crushed with a 0.050" gap looks like?

Brew on

That's the only one I have. Unfortunately it's my phone camera and with the wheat so small afterwards you can't even see it. That was unconditioned at .050 and 23% wheat 5% Munich and 72% Pilsner. Cheers

 

[Blazinlow86]

It is definitely counter intuitive! I’m so glad I posted about this because after all the reading I did, I just assumed “more flow = better”, but thinking about all of the variables involved...this really makes sense.

I’ll dial my pump way back and watch the MT output hose to make sure it’s keeping up. During this first batch I noticed a lot of air in the line...which makes sense since it wasn’t draining as fast as the pump was pumping.

Good looking out. Can’t wait for my next batch!

i still personally think your better off crushing looser and pumping faster than the other way around. cranking your pump WAY back kinda defeats the purpose of recirculation imho. after a few runs you can mill tighter until you see your flow slowing and your pretty much set. cheers

 

[doug293cz]

That's the only one I have. Unfortunately it's my phone camera and with the wheat so small afterwards you can't even see it. That was unconditioned at .050 and 23% wheat 5% Munich and 72% Pilsner. CheersView attachment 572723

Thanks for replying, but I was really looking for an in focus, close up of a wheat only crush. Can't really tell anything from that pic.

Brew on

 

[Blazinlow86]

I've never tried it personally but wheat ONLY wouldn't even crush at that setting I imagine .I've only done partial wheat grists and run it all together so the wheat kernels still get broken up

 

[doug293cz]

I've never tried it personally but wheat ONLY wouldn't even crush at that setting I imagine .I've only done partial wheat grists and run it all together so the wheat kernels still get broken up

That would actually make an interesting comparison: a 50-50 wheat-barley vs. wheat only at 0.050 gap.

Brew on