medicinal/plastic & astringent off-flavors - WTF

[Deckers_Beers]

Hey all. I've been brewing for just over a year now, and produced over a dozen beers, with barely a perceptible off-flavor in the bunch. However, my last 3 brews all have off-flavors, my last 2 having a distinct plastic/vinyl band-aid type medicinal flavor.

I brewed an IPA with a $#!+ ton of late addition hops. For a 5 gallon batch, I had almost 9 oz of pellets in the boil (~7 at/after 15 min - hopstand), then 2 oz of pellets for the dry hop. This batch didn't have the plastic/vinyl medicinal taste, but was pretty astringent. At first, I mistook it for a very sharp bitterness, but after taking it to a HB club meeting I was shown the error of my ways. I've been told that it could be due to excessive hop usage, but I've seen recipes with higher hopping rates, so I'm not sure that's it. Although it did taste astringent at bottling (in retrospect).

Then I brewed a BIPA w/ the homebrew club I'm in. I took home my share of the batch & bottled it. Definite band-aid flavors there. But apparently everyone else's share tasted fine, in terms of off-flavors. This got me thinking it was possibly in my bottling routine.

Finally, I brewed a red ale. Tasted ok at bottling (as did the BIPA), but now it has the same band-aid/vinyl/plastic taste that the BIPA had, except even more pronounced.

I've gone through many resources on the cause of these off-flavors, & seen that often astringency is seen as a having similar causes as medicinal off-flavors. Maybe all 3 of these instances are related? I ruled out many of the causes: couldn't be chloramine in the water, due to fact that the club brew had good results aside from mine(also applies to mash ph), I always use starters, so it's not due to stressed fermentation, etc...

I figure it most likely has something to do with my bottling technique/cleaning/sanitation. I did switch from PBW to Oxyclean Free around the time I brewed these beers. Also, I started using a Target brand granulated sugar instead of corn sugar for the priming solution. Could either of those possibly be the culprit?

Here's my bottling regimen:
I have a large stockpile of bottles that I rinse immediately after emptying, so I just give them a quick rinse, eye check, & 5 min star-san soak. The bottling bucket gets an overnight soak in Oxyclean, the spigot is taken apart and soaked for maybe 15 minutes w/the siphon, tubing, disassembled bottling wand, & bottle caps all in Oxyclean (then sanitized in star san before use). The bottling tree pieces get a 5 min soak in star san before assembling & starting to sanitize the bottles (so certain pegs of the tree might sit, susceptible to dust, etc, for maybe 20 minutes before a bottle gets put onto it). But who knows, ANY of these pieces of plastic equipment could have a slight scratch and be hoarding bacteria... Should I just buy all new bottling equipment????
I boil the sugar in ~2 cups of water, then allow it to cool to below 70* (normally covered with a sanitized lid overnight) before putting it in the bottling bucket. The beer is racked from the carboy into the bottling bucket, going for the "swirling" of the beer into the priming solution.

I've also read that rinsing with chlorinated water is also a potential cause of these off-flavors... I rinse everything in my heavily-chlorinated tap water, and that's also what I use to mix with my Oxyclean & Star San. Could that be a culprit?

Basically, I'm kind of at a loss as to what is causing these off-flavors. ANY feedback is more than welcome. Thanks for taking the time to read this super-f**king-long post! :rockin:

 

[Transamguy77]

Your bottling process looked good till I got to your letting your sugar sit overnight and "I rinse everything in my heavily chlorinated water", you don't rinse starsan, if you are using your chlorinated water for starsan you might want to try distilled water.

You could put your sugar solution in an ice bath, it will cool quick it's only a cup or so of water and then add it to your bottling bucket.

I have never experienced that off flavor but I have read it can be caused by chlorine, I can speak for having batches of beer with off flavors (sour, and I don't like sour) and had to dump many 10 gallon batches so I feel your pain.

At this point I would rinse all your stuff off and let it dry then make starsan with distilled water and purchase a spray bottle to spray sanitizer and also buy a vinator to sanitize your bottles it works really well and also a great time saver.

 

[Deckers_Beers]

Your bottling process looked good till I got to your letting your sugar sit overnight and "I rinse everything in my heavily chlorinated water", you don't rinse starsan, if you are using your chlorinated water for starsan you might want to try distilled water.

I don't rinse anything after I've sanitized it, but I do mix the starsan with my tap water. Maybe I will try using distilled water, though. Thanks!

But in regards to letting the priming sugar cool overnight, what problems do you see?

 

[sky4meplease]

After reading your novel my guess would be the priming sugar.
Not sure if it makes a difference but leave the chlorine out of your starsan.
Personally I rinse my no rinse cleanser. Most of the time the solution looks nasty after it's done it's job.

 

[Deckers_Beers]

After reading your novel my guess would be the priming sugar.
Not sure if it makes a difference but leave the chlorine out of your starsan.
Personally I rinse my no rinse cleanser. Most of the time the solution looks nasty after it's done it's job.

I know, it was a pretty long post, haha!

so are you using tap water to rinse after sanitizing?

 

[TheHopfather]

You may want to consider your bottles as well. I used to do the rinse, visual inspection thing with mine until I got a couple back to back batches of gushers. I now give my bottles a soak in PBW solution after rinsing. I just fill a cooler with 6 gal of PBW solution and toss empty bottles in there as they empty, cooler always has PBW in it. The first time I did that I ended up with an oil slick of "something" coming out of my visually clean bottles.

Other than that you can try not rinsing your sanitizer off. Rinsing does defeat the purpose after all... I wouldn't worry about cooling your priming sugar either. I boil mine in the microwave and toss it directly into the bottling bucket followed immediately with beer. Works great.

Edit: Missed the chlorinated water part. You could try mixing up a 5 gal bucket with RO water/StarSan, its handy to have around anyway. I don't think the Oxy will matter with chlorinated water but you should try a batch using RO water for sanitizer and priming solution. The taste threshold for chlorophenols is ridiculously low. Think PPB instead of PPM, it doesn't take much, better safe than sorry if you're having issues.

 

[Deckers_Beers]

You may want to consider your bottles as well. I used to do the rinse, visual inspection thing with mine until I got a couple back to back batches of gushers. I now give my bottles a soak in PBW solution after rinsing. I just fill a cooler with 6 gal of PBW solution and toss empty bottles in there as they empty, cooler always has PBW in it. The first time I did that I ended up with an oil slick of "something" coming out of my visually clean bottles.

That's really interesting... I think I'll start doing that. I have a few old coolers & buckets that I could use for this purpose. You don't use a bottle brush, just let the empties soak for a few days?

Other than that you can try not rinsing your sanitizer off. Rinsing does defeat the purpose after all...

I'm actually not rinsing anything after it is sanitized. I take everything straight from a starsan bucket into beer (or onto the bottle tree).

 

[RedlegEd]

I don't rinse anything after I've sanitized it, but I do mix the starsan with my tap water. Maybe I will try using distilled water, though. Thanks!

But in regards to letting the priming sugar cool overnight, what problems do you see?

Whether you cool your priming solution or not, I'd suggest using distilled or Reverse Osmosis (RO) water to mix with your priming sugar, not your nasty "heavily chlorinated" tap water. I don't think it takes very much chlorine to throw that "band-aid" like off flavor. Good luck finding a fix, I'm sure it's frustrating. Ed

 

[LLBeanJ]

You mentioned that the spigot is taken apart and soaked in Oxiclean. When you say "taken apart," do you mean just pulled off the bucket or do you separate the handle piece from the outer body? If not separated, you could have nasties residing inside the spigot assembly. I completely disassemble my spigot when I'm done using it and store it in pieces until the next time I need it, which could be quite a while since I rarely bottle anything.

 

[sky4meplease]

I don't rinse after sanitizing but I do rinse after cleaning/cleanser.
I mix my Star San with R/O water.
I personally didn't see any problems with your process. As long as you shake or drain a majority of the cleanser off your equipment and thoroughly rinse in sanitizer you should be good assuming residual sanitizer heavy in chlorine from your tap doesn't remain on your equipment while filling. That is why I wouldn't recommend using chlorinated water to mix your sanitizer.
That being said if this issue just popped up recently and your choice of cleanser and priming sugar are all you have changed then I would blame your sugar.
It seems as if I watched a documentary on making table sugar where they bleach it to make it white.
Just some food for thought.

 

[m_c_zero]

https://www.morebeer.com/content/homebrew-off-flavors

Chlorophenol
Tastes/Smells Like:
Plastic, Vinyl, Iodine
Possible Causes:
Using chlorinated tap water to brew or rinse equipment is the most common cause
for plastic-like or medicinal flavors. Medicinal flavors can also be the result of using
cleanser or sanitizer that is chlorine or iodine based. Some wild yeast will contribute
to a similar medicinal taste.
How to Avoid:
Don’t use chlorinated water to brew or to rinse equipment that will come into contact
with the beer. If chlorinated water must be used, use a water filter that removes
chlorine or boil the water for 15 minutes and then cool to room temperature to force
out any chlorine that may be present. Always use the recommended amount and
concentrations of sanitizers. Most sanitizers will not cause any off flavors when used
properly. When using bleach, use one-half ounce per gallon of water, let equipment
soak for 10 minutes and always rinse with sanitized (pre-boiled) water.

 

[Deckers_Beers]

You mentioned that the spigot is taken apart and soaked in Oxiclean. When you say "taken apart," do you mean just pulled off the bucket or do you separate the handle piece from the outer body? If not separated, you could have nasties residing inside the spigot assembly. I completely disassemble my spigot when I'm done using it and store it in pieces until the next time I need it, which could be quite a while since I rarely bottle anything.

I unscrew the plastic spigot from the bucket, but I didn't know you could take it apart further... damn! I'll definitely look at that! I'm sure there's a youtube video out there showing how it's done if I can't figure it out.

Thanks!!!!

 

[Deckers_Beers]

I found the following video, showing how to disassemble the plastic spigot. Well, I feel like a moron. :smack:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUBPfeT59PI[/ame]

 

[brandonlovesbeer]

Im confused. Why did you mix starsan with bleach?
Star San is a strong sanitizer the does not require rinsing. Their slogan of "Don't fear the foam" means no rinsing required.

And oxyclean already smells like medicine and detergent. Even the unscented stuff.

Honestly I just boil the priming sugar and dump it right into the bucket.
1 cup of boiling sugar water with 5 gal of cold wort on top will not hurt anything.

 

[RedlegEd]

Im confused. Why did you mix starsan with bleach?
Star San is a strong sanitizer the does not require rinsing. Their slogan of "Don't fear the foam" means no rinsing required.

And oxyclean already smells like medicine and detergent. Even the unscented stuff.

Honestly I just boil the priming sugar and dump it right into the bucket.
1 cup of boiling sugar water with 5 gal of cold wort on top will not hurt anything.

If you read the OP, I don't think he's mixing it with bleach, rather he said his tap water is highly chlorinated, which might affect how StarSan throws off flavors on beer. Most people suggested making the StarSan using Distilled or RO water. I went further and suggested using distilled or RO water for the priming solution too. Ed

 

[sky4meplease]

I went further and suggested using distilled or RO water for the priming solution too. Ed

No doubt great advice.
I am curious the OP never had problems before. It wasn't until the switch in cleanser and priming sugar that the off flavor showed up.

 

[TheHopfather]

That's really interesting... I think I'll start doing that. I have a few old coolers & buckets that I could use for this purpose. You don't use a bottle brush, just let the empties soak for a few days?

Yup, I just toss 'em into the PBW until I get around to dealing with them again, a couple days is lots. I rinse, dry on the bottle tree and store them until I'm ready to fill. I don't bottle all that often anymore, but I've had zero problems with off flavors/gushers since I started doing this.

 

[RedlegEd]

No doubt great advice.
I am curious the OP never had problems before. It wasn't until the switch in cleanser and priming sugar that the off flavor showed up.

I agree. Were it me, I'd go back to corn sugar and PBW as well as the DO/RO water to eliminate as many potential causes as possible. I've always used Oxyclean and/or home-made PWB and have never had an off flavor that I could attribute to it. In my early brewing days, my off flavors were caused either by not treating my water or lack of ferm temp control. Ed

 

[Transamguy77]

I don't rinse anything after I've sanitized it, but I do mix the starsan with my tap water. Maybe I will try using distilled water, though. Thanks!

But in regards to letting the priming sugar cool overnight, what problems do you see?

There is all kinds of bacteria in the air, when you boil and cool and use it immediately it lessens the chance of anything getting in there. Waiting till the next day allows something to get into it and breed all that time.

 

[BrotherBock]

You're ruling out chloramines because the brew club had good results. But are they treating their water and you aren't? Maybe a cause? My understanding is Medicinal flavor is almost always chlorophenols. Which I believe is a product of mashing. As that's when the chloramines react with the tannins.

Alternatively, maybe the chlorine/chloramines are getting in later in the process and still impacting it. Your starter wort maybe?

 

[Ogri]

You're ruling out chloramines because the brew club had good results. But are they treating their water and you aren't? Maybe a cause? My understanding is Medicinal flavor is almost always chlorophenols. Which I believe is a product of mashing. As that's when the chloramines react with the tannins.

Alternatively, maybe the chlorine/chloramines are getting in later in the process and still impacting it. Your starter wort maybe?

+1

If, as the OP stated, the other brew club members' end product wasn't affected, with the same or similar off flavours, it sounds like the priming sugar solution or bottle sanitizing with untreated chlorinated/chloramine laden water are the most likely culprits.

Possibly whipping up a 5 gallon batch of tap water with a 1/3rd to a 1/2 a campden tab, so you can use this water for brewing, priming, cleaning and/or sanitizing solution, might be worth a try in future. It'd be the least expensive way to go, anyway.

 

[Deckers_Beers]

If you read the OP, I don't think he's mixing it with bleach, rather he said his tap water is highly chlorinated, which might affect how StarSan throws off flavors on beer. Most people suggested making the StarSan using Distilled or RO water. I went further and suggested using distilled or RO water for the priming solution too. Ed

True, I'm not using any bleac at all, nor rinsing anything after sanitization. I'm also using filtered water for my priming solution. The chlorinated water is only used in rinsing after Oxiclean & before Starsan, and for mixing those two solutions. I'm definitely going to start using RO water for the Starsan from now on, hoping that helps! Thanks!

 

[Deckers_Beers]

There is all kinds of bacteria in the air, when you boil and cool and use it immediately it lessens the chance of anything getting in there. Waiting till the next day allows something to get into it and breed all that time.

I cover the pot with a sanitized lid as soon as the water is done steaming (maybe 10 minutes after I turn the burner off), so there's no chance of infection. Often I leave it in the fridge overnight, pull it out first thing in the morning to let it get up to room temp, and then dump into the bottling bucket once I'm ready to go.

Some folks here are saying to just boil & dump, and that makes me really nervous... don't want to shock or kill some of the yeast during the first little bit of siphoning the beer...

 

[Deckers_Beers]

You're ruling out chloramines because the brew club had good results. But are they treating their water and you aren't? Maybe a cause? My understanding is Medicinal flavor is almost always chlorophenols. Which I believe is a product of mashing. As that's when the chloramines react with the tannins.

Alternatively, maybe the chlorine/chloramines are getting in later in the process and still impacting it. Your starter wort maybe?

The brew club has an RO filter that they use for everything. I'm using filtered bottled water from Costco, which I have had good results with previously. I also use filtered or distilled water for my yeast starters, so I don't think that's it... unless it's the fact that I'm using unfiltered tap water with my Starsan... definitely going to change that!

 

[Deckers_Beers]

Possibly whipping up a 5 gallon batch of tap water with a 1/3rd to a 1/2 a campden tab, so you can use this water for brewing, priming, cleaning and/or sanitizing solution, might be worth a try in future. It'd be the least expensive way to go, anyway.

That's a great idea! The Campden tablet will get rid of the chlorine/chloramine?

 

[oujens]

That's a great idea! The Campden tablet will get rid of the chlorine/chloramine?

Yes, my guess by scanning through your notes is that you were not adding any to get rid of the chlorine and chloramine. This is probably where you are getting your off-flavor. Another solution is use RO water and not worry about anything. It gives a clean slate so that you can instantly rule out water as a problem (assuming the RO source is well maintained; $10 TDS meter is your friend here). I switched to RO and have been very happy.

Edit: I might add that if doing all-grain, you might also visit the topic of Mash pH. I found my tap water was raising the mash pH too high and I was getting off-flavors from it. RO water helped here as well, along with some acid additions.

 

[sky4meplease]

This is where the rabbit hole deepens.
Your tap water (treated for the "ines") is probably fine (PH wise) for a majority of beers you will brew maybe except for really dark or really light colored.
R/O water though clear of impurities will not offer the alkalinity you will need to balance PH in beers say over 10-15 SRM. For that your treated tap water would be better.
For beers lighter than 10 SRM the R/O water would be a better option.
In my humble opinion of course.
Or feel free to stick your head down the rabbit hole. I would love the company.

 

[Transamguy77]

I cover the pot with a sanitized lid as soon as the water is done steaming (maybe 10 minutes after I turn the burner off), so there's no chance of infection. Often I leave it in the fridge overnight, pull it out first thing in the morning to let it get up to room temp, and then dump into the bottling bucket once I'm ready to go.



Some folks here are saying to just boil & dump, and that makes me really nervous... don't want to shock or kill some of the yeast during the first little bit of siphoning the beer...

I understand you are covering it with a sanitized lid but unless you are vacuum sealing it there is still microbes in the air that can still get in, starsan only works while it's wet which is why if it dries you need to reapply it.

I had a lacto problem a few years back and after dumping several batches I narrowed it down to where I was pitching my yeast, in my basement. And I can assure you I was very sanitary but it was in the air.

It sounds like your problem is in the water, all I was doing was pointing out a potential problem. I hope you get your problem figured out soon because spending all that time brewing to have it not be drinkable is frustrating.

 

[BrotherBock]

unless it's the fact that I'm using unfiltered tap water with my Starsan... definitely going to change that!

I don't treat my water for my starsan and have never had this issue. I've definitely had that band-aid flavor before. But once I started treating my brewing water the problem went away. And any astringency I've had went away with ph adjustments.

So, sorry. I have no other insights. Unless, you're confusing the off flavor with something else.....taste buds can be weird.

 

[Deckers_Beers]

I don't treat my water for my starsan and have never had this issue. I've definitely had that band-aid flavor before. But once I started treating my brewing water the problem went away. And any astringency I've had went away with ph adjustments.

So, sorry. I have no other insights. Unless, you're confusing the off flavor with something else.....taste buds can be weird.

Yea, they sure can be weird...

I had a friend from the homebrew club I belong to come over to help me out narrowing it down, and we're thinking it's the fact that I need to COMPLETELY take apart the plastic spigot for the bottling bucket (medicinal flavors from slight infection), and also that I may be getting too much grain particles in my brew kettle (astringency).

We live very near to each other, and while he does use a carbon filter, we are using the same tap water for cleaning/rinsing/sanitizing... I'm thinking of buying a carbon filter myself, and ruling out the issue with the tap water.