Measuring Calcium Chloride

[ajdelange]

Yep. Calcium carbonate.

 

[schematix]

Where did the calcium carbonate come from? Has my solution changed in strength?

 

[ajdelange]

Ca++ + 2Cl- + CO2 + H2O ---> CaCO3 + 2H+ + 2Cl-

The jar needs to be tightly sealed to prevent this from happening.

 

[schematix]

Hmm. It has been in a tightly sealed canning jar.

I'm not a chemist by trade (I prefer controlling electrons), but stretching my memory back to college it doesn't look like that reaction is balanced. Is it reacting with atmospheric oxygen and carbon dioxide?

Is this reaction reversible under any conditions or is this solution now a throw-away?

 

[ajdelange]

It isn't because I left out the CO2 which does indeed come from the air. If it's not chalk then I don't know what it is. Try decanting the liquid. That is still useable. The strength probably did not change very much but you could always recheck SG. Try adding some vinegar to the residue to see if it fizzes.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm not a chemist by trade (I prefer controlling electrons)...

Actually, that is exactly what a chemist does.

More to the point, I had another thought. Perhaps it is some calcium chloride which has come out of solution. Try shaking the jar. If the stuff redissolves then that's what it doubtless is. If it doesn't redissolve and it doesn't fizz under acid then I don't know what it is.

 

[JKoravos]

Great post. I'll never forget the first time I tried to weigh out some CaCl for a batch. It was the height of summer and I'd just bought a brand new pouch from the LHBS. I brought it out to our prototyping lab at work to use the gram balance. Our prototyping lab is in a smaller outbuilding from our main facility and is not climate controlled (no A/C!). I zipped it open and started weighing, before I could even get enough on the scale to hit my number I was already dealing with a goopy mess. I couldn't believe it.

I can't argue with the method in the OP, but my tack on this would likely be to create the anhydride in the oven, get a baseline mass of anhydrous and calculate the remaining quantity each time I pulled from the jar on an anhydrous basis.

For example, say cooked my CaCl2 to create 100g on anhydrous and then put it away.

Next time I brew I measure the weight of the jar and it's 105g. I know that each gram I use will have (100/105=) .952g of anhydrous. If I want 2g on anhydrous, I would weigh out (2/.952=) 2.10g of partially hydrated CaCl2. Now I know I have 98g of anhydrous remaining (and 102.9g of total mass remaining).

You can continue to repeat this process as long as you track your anhydrous content.

I can certainly see the merit in both methods, though. Now I'm tempted to go bake my CaCl2 to see what I've actually been using.

 

[user 141939]

Great post. I'll never forget the first time I tried to weigh out some CaCl for a batch. It was the height of summer and I'd just bought a brand new pouch from the LHBS. I brought it out to our prototyping lab at work to use the gram balance. Our prototyping lab is in a smaller outbuilding from our main facility and is not climate controlled (no A/C!). I zipped it open and started weighing, before I could even get enough on the scale to hit my number I was already dealing with a goopy mess. I couldn't believe it.

I can't argue with the method in the OP, but my tack on this would likely be to create the anhydride in the oven, get a baseline mass of anhydrous and calculate the remaining quantity each time I pulled from the jar on an anhydrous basis.

For example, say cooked my CaCl2 to create 100g on anhydrous and then put it away.

Next time I brew I measure the weight of the jar and it's 105g. I know that each gram I use will have (100/105=) .952g of anhydrous. If I want 2g on anhydrous, I would weigh out (2/.952=) 2.10g of partially hydrated CaCl2. Now I know I have 98g of anhydrous remaining (and 102.9g of total mass remaining).

You can continue to repeat this process as long as you track your anhydrous content.

I can certainly see the merit in both methods, though. Now I'm tempted to go bake my CaCl2 to see what I've actually been using.

I like this. I just don't want to be bothered with making solutions of things at home. I did the baking thing and have just been storing it in a air tight container with a crap load of desiccant packets in it.

 

[schematix]

After 2 brews using the CaCl2 solution, I am a convert. The solid form picks up water from the air at a ridiculously fast rate. You can put it on an precision scale and watch the weight climb.

Baking it also a hassle. It takes a few hours to dry it out, and as soon as its out of the oven it's collecting water again. Not to mention a big waste of energy running the oven that hot for that long.

The newest Brun Water also includes calculations for CaCl2 solution.

 

[user 141939]

I have a toaster oven. I can't imagine it uses that much energy and I don't think there is much moisture for it to pick up in my little dessicator.

If I had a good means of measuring smaller volumes and a precision hydrometer I might do the solution thing but I don't right now. So doing that probably wouldn't be any more accurate then what I am doing.

 

[Tarks]

Subscribed.

 

[Merleti]

I flat out start with pure water. A TDS under 1ppm or better. Then I add what I want using a program like Beer Smith.

 

[mabrungard]

The newest Brun Water also includes calculations for CaCl2 solution.

Thanks for the mention. However, I had a brain fart when coding the liquid algorithm. Supporters will be receiving version 3.4 over the next few weeks that corrects the error in liquid CaCl2 calculations. If you will be using a liquid solution before that, be sure to send me a note and I'll get you to the top of the list.

 

[Homercidal]

Good information. I'll be making up some solution and lugging it into the spreadsheet when it's ready.

 

[Tarks]

Thanks for the mention. However, I had a brain fart when coding the liquid algorithm. Supporters will be receiving version 3.4 over the next few weeks that corrects the error in liquid CaCl2 calculations. If you will be using a liquid solution before that, be sure to send me a note and I'll get you to the top of the list.

I got the updated version but haven't had a chance to enter any calculations. Just wondering, how off was the liquid CaCl2 calculations? Just curious. I have 6 batches in fermentation and wondering what I should expect.

 

[Homercidal]

Brewed a Pliny clone this weekend. I didn't make up the liquid solution, so I measured the dry stuff and added a bit more to make up for the weight of the moisture it absorbed...

Yeah, I was winging it!

 

[ajdelange]

I did the same thing this morning.

 

[LSUGrad00]

Just to make sure I'm doing this right.

I took a 250ml flask, added 20g of CaCl2, and added distilled water to the 200ml mark.

Measured my gravity and it was at 1.070. Enter that into the formula and I get 86.07 g/L.

So if I need 6g of CaCl2 to brew I'd add 6g/86g/L = .069L (69ml), right?

 

[orangehero]

Yes. If you round the traditional way it's closer to 70 ml than to 69.

 

[Brew_Meister_General]

This hygroscopic (sucks up water) behavior of calcium chloride is kind of a pain in the rear. Over time, it will draw water out of the atmosphere and attach that water to the solids. We brewers end up not knowing how much calcium and chloride we are actually adding to our brewing water.

How come? Does the water skew the weight measurements by making it heavier?

 

[ajdelange]

Yes

 

[user 141939]

Does my lazy method of keeping it in a sealed containers with a handful of desiccant packets seem reasonable?

I remove it only long enough to weigh some out, and then back in it goes.

 

[urg8rb8]

I keep my calcium chloride in a zip lock bag. I also live in a very humid climate and I've never had an issue with the salt liquefying. I open the ziplock, spoon out what I need, then squeeze out any air from the bag then rezip it.

 

[mabrungard]

PS: Calcium chloride liquifies when its hydration state is around the hexahydrate stage. That is quite a bit beyond the dihydrate stage. You can't see or tell if your calcium chloride has moved from anhydrous to the dihydrate stage or somewhat beyond. Its not until its way too late that you would notice a problem if liquifying was your indicator.

 

[ajdelange]

I keep my calcium chloride in a zip lock bag. I also live in a very humid climate and I've never had an issue with the salt liquefying. I open the ziplock, spoon out what I need, then squeeze out any air from the bag then rezip it.

The problem lies not so much in the liquefaction (though that is a mess) as in the weight gain from atmospheric moisture so that if the scale says you have a gram of powder you may have in reality really only 900 or 800 mg of CaCl2 with 100 or 200 mg water. If you have a sensitive balance, one that indicates to the mg, you can put a gram of powder on the pan and watch the numbers increase before your eyes. The early posts here show you how to estimate the water of hydration in your CaCl2 from a hydrometer reading. You can use that technique to determine how much water your material stored in a zip locked bag has picked up and it might be a good idea for you to do that to see whether your method is effective or not.

 

[raysmithtx]

First I will admit that I'm not a 'science' guy so the following may be way out of line. After reading, and rereading this entire thread I came up with the following plan.

Dump all of my CaCl little white round balls into a quart of water. Let them dissolve and then get the mixture to around 77 degrees. Take a Specific Gravity reading and look up the Grams/Liter for that SG on one of the referenced charts.

On brew day take the amount of CaCl I need as calculated in Brun Water and divide that by the Grams/Liter from the chart and multiply by 1000. That gives me the amount of the liquid I need, in mL, to put in my kettle.

The next time I brew, I measure the SG to see if it has changed. If it has, look up the new G/L in the chart and repeat.

No percentages to figure out, no weighing.

As I said I'm not 'sciency'. Will this work?

 

[ajdelange]

Yes. And the simplicity of measurement is a lot of the appeal. You shouldn't need to recheck the SG as the solution, while it will exchange water with the air trapped in the bottle when you open it, doesn't do so nearly as dramatically as the powder.

Use a plastic bottle as the solution will corrode a metal closure.

 

[Brew_Meister_General]

Dump all of my CaCl little white round balls into a quart of water. Let them dissolve and then get the mixture to around 77 degrees.

77 degrees F or C? Is this just to make it soluble in water?

 

[Brew_Meister_General]

Yes. And the simplicity of measurement is a lot of the appeal. You shouldn't need to recheck the SG as the solution, while it will exchange water with the air trapped in the bottle when you open it, doesn't do so nearly as dramatically as the powder.

Use a plastic bottle as the solution will corrode a metal closure.

Exchange water with the air trapped in the bottle when you open it? Isn't it already fully liquified?

 

[Brew_Meister_General]

Would anyone advocate that calcium chloride is one way to save an over-attenuated beer?

Mines just finished at 12 when I wanted 18 so I thought by increasing the chloride from 50 to 80 ppm this would promote the body and sweetness of the beer.