Maybe a Gas leak?

[IslandLizard]

I was trying to understand what compresses the inside packing, is the nylon washer the packing and its compressed by the gas pressure? I can't see a physical way opening the valve fully puts any compression.

Sorry, the valve packing is inside the valve assembly, the vertical part, toward the top.
It's not visible unless the valve is removed. Don't.do.that!
It's mechanically compressed by the valve stem when it reached the topmost position.

The nut on the regulator tightens the seal between regulator, nylon washer and cylinder I think.

Exactly!
And has nothing to do with the valve stem packing (the vertical part).

 

[DuncB]

Should those Sanke rubber rings have a little silicone lube on them? I have several sankey connector but not done that yet, basically as not used yet.

 

[Michele Craft]

Another question on the topic, for all the screw on (flare?) to push in duotight connectors, we used a wrap of Teflon tape. I know metal flare to metal flare you don't need to because the threads are cut to make a seal but I thought plastic to metal it'd be good to, maybe not?

Also how tight do you screw on those duotight? We had a leak initially that you could hear on one of the ports at the regulator when hand tightened so we put a wrench on it but obviously it's plastic so how tight should you really go?

 

[Michele Craft]

It would appear from this that you don't NEED thread tape but it doesn't say do NOT use it so.....
https://www.morebeer.com/images/file.php?file_id=30205

 

[IslandLizard]

Another question on the topic, for all the screw on (flare?) to push in duotight connectors, we used a wrap of Teflon tape. I know metal flare to metal flare you don't need to because the threads are cut to make a seal but I thought plastic to metal it'd be good to, maybe not?

Also how tight do you screw on those duotight? We had a leak initially that you could hear on one of the ports at the regulator when hand tightened so we put a wrench on it but obviously it's plastic so how tight should you really go?

That's very much the topic. Overtightening the threaded ends of those those PtC (Push to Connect) fittings can crack them. Duotight especially has more of that cracking tendency than John Guest, reportedly. @day_trippr

Thickening up the threads with a wrap of Teflon tape may exacerbate that problem. The seal is made on the flared surfaces, the threads do not make the seal.

It would be nice to have PtC connectors with a molded-in threaded (female) metal insert extending past the "bottom" where the flare is, similar to the male threads on corny keg QDs, but in female. That could prevent cracking in most cases.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

I know metal flare to metal flare you don't need to because the threads are cut to make a seal but I thought plastic to metal it'd be good to, maybe not?

Metal to metal flare needs a little white plastic washer for the seal.
Never use thread tape on the bottle or any flare connection.

 

[Michele Craft]

That's very much the topic. Overtightening the threaded ends of those those PtC (Push to Connect) fittings can crack them. Duotight especially has more of that cracking tendency than John Guest, reportedly. @day_trippr

Thickening up the threads with a wrap of Teflon tape may exacerbate that problem. The seal is made on the flared surfaces, the threads do not make the seal.

It would be nice to have PtC connectors with a molded-in threaded (female) metal insert extending past the "bottom" where the flare is, similar to the male threads on corny keg QDs, but in female. That could prevent cracking in most cases.

Metal to metal flare needs a little white plastic washer for the seal.
Never use thread tape on the bottle or any flare connection.

Well then it appears I need to pull it all apart and take the tape off, do the hand tight/mark/180deg more of a turn as suggested. I do need to move my manifolds up in the collar as getting a wrench on them is difficult due to the inside edge of the chest. We fitted them BEFORE screwing to the collar so it didn't strike me as a problem until this morning when I was removing bottle/regulator and had to disconnect from manifold. I actually DID crack one on the beer side at the coupler so I knew not to go too tight on the rest.

Do they make John Guest for the 8mm EVA line? I thought duotight had a lock on those but I've worked with a bunch of John Guest in the past and would be willing to use them here. I agree, molded in metal threads would be ideal.

Didn't use teflon tape on the bottle to regulator connection but I'll go take it off the rest, at least on the gas side.

I measured this morning and I have JUST enough space for a 3" scale under there as well tho I'm considering building some kind of holder for the tank as with the long dual body regulator on it, it won't stay upright so we have pipe hanging plastic straps around it screwed in to two places in the collar which works ok unless you have to take things apart so I may change that to some thin walled 5" PVC mounted to a 1/2" piece of plywood as I just saw in another thread and I'm not sure how much height that will add.

 

[day_trippr]

What I used:

For QDs, shut-off valves, and other 1/4" MFL connections: John Guest PM4508F4S: Coupler, 1/4" FFL to 5/16" OD
For beer nut size stuff (shanks, Sanke couplers): John Guest PI451015FS: Coupler, 5/8" BSP to 5/16" OD
For flow meters (eg Swissflow SF800 with 3/8" BSPP threads): DMFit AFAB0506C: Coupler, 3/8" BSP to 5/16" OD

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

Do they make John Guest for the 8mm EVA line?

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p...flare-5-16-x-1-4-flare?variant=13249974042667Bag of 10 for $28, plus shipping. Free shipping over $89 orders.

RiteBrew used to have those JG fittings, by that name IIRC. But the current image (now) shows Duotight embossed on it.

5/16” = 0.313” = 7.95 mm
Close enough to 8 mm.

 

[IslandLizard]

Should those Sanke rubber rings have a little silicone lube on them? I have several sankey connector but not done that yet, basically as not used yet.

Yes, you should lubricate those exposed outer rings/washers.
When reassembling, lubricate the 3 o-rings around the probe, inside the coupler, too.

Just use only a little, enough to make them slick. You don't want the lube oozing everywhere.

 

[IslandLizard]

Didn't use teflon tape on the bottle to regulator connection but I'll go take it off the rest, at least on the gas side.

I actually put 2 turns of thin (white) teflon tape around the threaded tank nozzle. It reduces friction when tightening the regulator nut. Those threads are wide, that tiny bit of tape won't prevent a seal, it actually helps getting a better one, and makes it much easier to wrench.

 

[Michele Craft]

5/16” = 0.313” = 7.95 mm
Close enough to 8 mm.

Was just going to ask since I didn't think 5/16" and 8mm OD were the same but apparently it's as you said, "close enough".

Yes, you should lubricate those exposed outer rings/washers.
When reassembling, lubricate the 3 o-rings around the probe, inside the coupler, too.

Just use only a little, enough to make them slick. You don't want the lube oozing everywhere.

What kind of lubricant to be used? Food grade? Something like the lubricant you'd use to pull wires through conduit (which I have a quart of)? This is what I have, says safe for humans but...
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-T...jUvFUY8pvF6ahuoADnhoCGSUQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[IslandLizard]

What kind of lubricant to be used? Food grade?

Keg Lube! Or plain vaseline. They're food grade. A little goes a long way.

Something like the lubricant you'd use to pull wires through conduit (which I have a quart of)?

No, it may be safe to touch, but surely it's not food grade.

 

[Michele Craft]

Put it all back together EXCEPT tapping the kegs. Took all the teflon tape off but there are some fittings I was NOT comfortable wrenching an extra 180deg after hand tight and only went 120 (2 sides of the hexagon vs 3). I also checked the ball lock posts ON the keg coupler themselves and wrench tightened them and they had a fair amount to so so I'm really wondering if that was my problem. Don't have a great way to get a scale in there because while I can just clear the regulator gauge with the lid, I have copper piping extending from the tower legs down into the tower to act as a heat sink for cooling (has been working great, no fan needed and I'm pouring within 4 to 5 of 38F setting and that was in an non air conditioned garage, the basement at a steady 66 should be even better). I'd like not to cut the pipes off so we may just slip the bathroom scale in there periodically until we trust things. Also didn't have a good way to sink things in water so we sprayed all connections, shut the room fans off and watched and listened.

Going to pick up another sixtel now and letting the gas bottle get cold to check output pressures (set each about 2psi below desired 10 and 14 targets) and then will tap all 3 kegs at the same time after a starsan spray and swipe with vaseline.

Fingers crossed!

 

[DuncB]

@IslandLizard

Yes, you should lubricate those exposed outer rings/washers.
When reassembling, lubricate the 3 o-rings around the probe, inside the coupler, too.

Thanks, you mention reassembling, I haven't taken the probe end of the coupler apart should I be doing this? and if so how often. I've just given the whole thing a soak in pbw and then starsan and then fitted it. I don't take the probe in the keg apart either ( only used them for 2 kegs worth so far so not much experience

 

[Michele Craft]

Well the kegs are tapped. Found one of the keg coupler to ball lock posts had a wonky o ring in it but it was making a LOT of noise so I don't think that was the original problem but I swapped that out. One other thing we noticed that MAY actually have been the problem, it seems that when you have a little pressure say from coiled up lines on those duotight fittings on the press in side, they're prone to leaking. Really starting to wonder if one of the gas lines at the coupler was getting pushed on when we closed the lid and that did it. They're pressed in hard has heck and I tugged back on them but still if they get pushed, they seem prone to a leak. Think I'll pick up a couple John Guest fittings to have them handy.

Also going to get that Plaato scale for the co2 tank. Probably won't spend the money for under the kegs since (weird to say) that's not as critical to me since we kind of know by pours how much would be left. I'm also going to get a backup co2 tank to keep on hand.

 

[DuncB]

I thought it was a simple scale and the plaato was for kegs.
I had a duotight leak with a sharp bend on the pipe. They do like straight or gentle curves. Allegedly duotight have two orings to reduce leaks not sure about john guest, I would measure how far the tubes go in with that pen line rather than just rammed in hard as hell it also lets you know if they move ( with open and closing).

 

[Michele Craft]

I thought it was a simple scale and the plaato was for kegs.
I had a duotight leak with a sharp bend on the pipe. They do like straight or gentle curves. Allegedly duotight have two orings to reduce leaks not sure about john guest, I would measure how far the tubes go in with that pen line rather than just rammed in hard as hell it also lets you know if they move ( with open and closing).

You can put the plaato under the co2 tanks too. I like that I don't have to lift the lid to read a scale output

 

[DuncB]

you need digital.

acurate to the tenth ounce, and stays on when pluged into a wall socket....

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KYA0RC2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
and i'd imagine being the read out is on a wire, could rig up something that works if the tank was in the fridge with the kegs? i keep mine outside though, love it!

The above can be read outside freezer.

Lot cheaper as well plaato keg 120 dollars , those scales 24

 

[Michele Craft]

It can yes, and I'm considering it BUT, our kegerator is being built into a bar so the cord on it didn't look long enough to sit up on a counter and I don't know if I WANT something sitting on the counter, that's the debate right now. Also, I don't have the clearance I don't believe because of my heat sink copper pipping that comes down from the tower, it'd interfere with the gauges IF they'd even clear the lid jacked up 3"

 

[DuncB]

Maybe @bracconiere could tell you how the readout gauge attaches. It might well be on a usb or other socket or just a simple soldering job and you can tuck it away somewhere.

 

[Michele Craft]

I went and remeasured and 3 added inches definitely won't work. It might clear the top of the tank shut off but the gauges sit higher and definitely won't clear, plus the copper piping from the tower would be tied up in the gauge set.

 

[Michele Craft]

Reviving this for some follow up and further discussion. Got a plaato scale and have it under the co2 bottle. I don't have an empty weight of bottle and gauges so just took starting weight. Gauges lean a bit on back of chest to hold bottle up and I may make a sleeve for the bottle to sit in but this works well enough.

Inkbird is set at 38 with a +/-2f shift and probe is in a sealed bottle of water. Interesting to see air temp reading from chest VS water bottle being almost 20f different. Seems really odd actually but the graph shows the temp up, then when compressor kicks on and temp coming down. Verified by watching Inkbird that it indeed is kicking on at peak in graph. Somewhat surprised how often it runs (about every 3 hours apparently)

One thing I have a question on is does co2 liquid get heavier as it cools? It must based on my weight readings but I just never realized that. I thought I had a leak again since it was down to 19.0lb at the Temps warmest but as the freezer got colder the weight on the scale got heavier.

 

[Michele Craft]

In thinking about this, I suppose it does make sense that it's heavier when colder because I guess as it warms it's going from liquid to gas a bit in the headspace? I won't swear to this theory but I suppose it makes sense. I just didn't think there'd be such a swing in weight (i.e about 0.2 - 0.3lb) over a 20F temp change

 

[IslandLizard]

does co2 liquid get heavier as it cools? It must based on my weight readings [...]

In thinking about this, I suppose it does make sense that it's heavier when colder because I guess as it warms it's going from liquid to gas a bit in the headspace? I won't swear to this theory but I suppose it makes sense. I just didn't think there'd be such a swing in weight (i.e about 0.2 - 0.3lb) over a 20F temp change

Of course the mass ("weight") stays the same...

It doesn't matter whether the CO2 is in solid, liquid or (pressurized) gas form, or at which temperature it is, it's in a closed bottle. It's not going anywhere or anything gets added to it.

 

[day_trippr]

There's no mass change in a gas bottle from temperature changes. Even if there is a phase change the mass is maintained...

Cheers!

 

[Michele Craft]

Yeah that's what we initially thought too (long time since high-school Chem class) but the data says otherwise. Several cycles now show temp down, weight up. So the only other factor is the scale itself. It's set up as a co2 bottle not beer so I didn't have to put in abv, specific gravity etc but it consistently shows the same type of readings so I'd like to figure out what could cause it. Chest hasn't been opened so no jostling of lines etc or anything like that.

I also am surprised at the bifference in air VS bottle of water temp (assuming the plaato plate reads the air correctly, I have to get a fridge temp dial gauge to sit in there for comparison)

 

[bracconiere]

Got a plaato scale and have it under the co2 bottle.

i hate to sound like a newb....but what is a plaato scale, and how does it work with a co2 canister? i googled it, and i only see keg stuff?


my scale varies with the rotation of the sun 0.3ozs, between moprning, noon and night

edit: i see now....but i'd point out the plaato only has a resolution of 0.33oz....so it might not be temp and gravity you're noticing.....

 

[Michele Craft]

i hate to sound like a newb....but what is a plaato scale, and how does it work with a co2 canister? i googled it, and i only see keg stuff?


my scale varies with the rotation of the sun 0.3ozs, between moprning, noon and night

edit: i see now....but i'd point out the plaato only has a resolution of 0.33oz....so it might not be temp and gravity you're noticing.....

Not sure what you mean by resolution of 0.33oz? My CO2 bottle is in the freezer on the hump so no sun impact. On the detail page in the app right now it shows 19.026lb, on the main screen it shows 19.03lb and I have the scale sensitivity set to "medium" tho I have no idea what changing from very low/low/medium/high actually do. It's just very odd how extremely consistent the temp/weight is in relation to each other and still weird how air temp in keezer and water temp in keezer a mere 6" apart (sealed bottle of water sitting on the hump too).

 

[bracconiere]

My CO2 bottle is in the freezer on the hump so no sun impact.

gravity still will affect a scale this accurate....mine is accurate to .2oz, and guesses to the nearest 0.1oz.....and my scale was at 33lbs0.8oz this morning, last pour it was down to 33lbs0.7oz, and it's only ~10-11am, so i've come to expect it'll drop and 0.1-0.2oz, by noon 1pm, then when the sun starts pulling down on my tank again, it will go back up...weird phenom i've noticed at first i kept panicking, but i've gotten used to it.....

and i lose about 0.1oz per 6 pack poured.....