Mashing isn't Laudering?

[Grimsawyer]

I've seen many all grain setups and the MLT is the mash tun and lauder tun at the same time. ok. What exactly is mashing. What exactly is Laudering? The idea is to keep the temp @ specified temp for X time then run a higher temp water over the whole thing to pull as much sugar out of the grainbed as you can. I know it's a process of extracting the startches and enzymes out of the grain and letting the enzymes turn the startches into sugars but I guess I missed the boat on the definition of mash and the definition of laudering (or is it lautering, my apologies, <--- worlds worst speller!) I know steeping is almost kinda similar to the aforementioned process, but steeping is just pulling whatever is in some specialty grains out and not worrying about any startch to sugar conversion, usually used when making extract beers. Anyhow, HELP!!! I'm so confused.:cross:

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Mashing is the process of converting the starches in the grains to sugars (amongst other chemical reactions). Lautering is the process of rinsing the extract out of the grains after conversion (mashing) has completed.

 

[david_42]

You've got the tune, just the verses are a bit mixed up.

What exactly is mashing.

The idea is to keep the temp @ specified temp for X time I know it's a process of extracting the startches and enzymes out of the grain and letting the enzymes turn the startches into sugars

What exactly is Laudering (sp)?

then run a higher temp water over the whole thing to pull as much sugar out of the grainbed as you can.

Lautering is
mash out, adding hotter water to stop the conversion process,
re-circulation to settle the bed and clear the wort,
finally, sparging to wash the sugar out of the grain.

Many homebrewers just mash and then sparge.

 

[Beer Snob]

I have a question about these two actually... if you mash in a pot... you obviously need to get everything to a tun. How do you do it and not risk hot side areation?

 

[ajf]

I have a question about these two actually... if you mash in a pot... you obviously need to get everything to a tun. How do you do it and not risk hot side areation?

I usually ladle with a 1qt Pyrex measuring jug. There are people who say that HSA is a myth, so a couple of weeks ago, I just poured the mash into the tun without worrying. In another couple of months, I'll know if it caused any damage.

-a.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Or you can make a manifold, put it in you pot and attach it to a siphon hose and siphon to your boil kettle.

 

[Grimsawyer]

Thank you all who have responded. I appreciate your help. I think I'm starting to get it, kind of... Ok, so has technology and knowledge actually eliminated one vessel in the brewing process or has the "Mash/Lauter Tun" always been one vessel. Is the MLT something that has evolved after someone realized that you can convert the starches, or mash, and rinse the sugars out, or sparging/lautering in a lautering tun, in 2 steps with one tun or is there still controversy over the missing pot? I think when I set up an AG system I'll have a HLT a MLT and a Kegggle (basicly.....). I know it works great for many people, in fact I havn't seen a 4 vessel set up yet. I, however, have seen a 2 vessel set up. One acted as the HLT and brew kettle. Not sure how that one works but hey, whatever works for the brewer, right?

ok, what is BATCH SPARGING? Is that when you dump your whole HLT into the MLT all at once then slowly siphon off the sugars into the brew kettle? My apologies for all the newbie questions. Just so much info and so small a brain.... hehehe

 

[budbo]

ok, what is BATCH SPARGING? Is that when you dump your whole HLT into the MLT all at once then slowly siphon off the sugars into the brew kettle?

Yes

 

[david_42]

The idea of separate mash & lauter tuns is relatively new. I can't think of a single advantage to doing this that can't be achieved using a manifold/false bottom/whatever in your mash tun. It's more work and as was pointed out, adds to the risk of hot-side effects. Certainly no pro operation uses two vessels.

Most of the time in batch sparging, you drain, fill, drain, fill and maybe one more time. It depends on the size of your mash tun. This is a much older method than fly sparging and it was quite common to brew two or three different gravity ales from a single mash. (I plan on doing this for my next barleywine, but that may be another year away) I like to drain & re-fill because it lets me get the kettle heating earlier. If you are using your only burner and your boil kettle to heat water, then a large mash tun and a single fill & drain is the way to go. This also brings conversion to a screeching halt, which can be a good thing.

 

[Truble]

I always thought that, since you are going to boil the wort after mashing, HSA would not be as much of an issue, as boiling will remove most of the oxygen from the wort, thus requiring oxygenation once cooled prior to pitching.

Is this wrong?

 

[ajf]

The idea of separate mash & lauter tuns is relatively new. I can't think of a single advantage to doing this that can't be achieved using a manifold/false bottom/whatever in your mash tun.

I can think of three advantages. Admittedly, I could probably get around them with some different equipment and some more care.

1. I get stuck sparges if I use flaked barley in the mash, and don't provide sufficient water to suspend the weight of the grain above the false bottom. If I were to mash in the lauter tun, I would either get a stuck sparge or would have to considerably dilute the sparge, neither of which I want.

2. The mash needs to be stirred well to ensure that there are no dry pockets of grain. With my flase bottom (which drains through a short piece of 3/8" copper pipe held in place by a rubber bung), the stirring dislodges the bung, so that when I start sparging, the wort ends up on the floor instead of in the kettle.

3. I can adjust the mash temperature by applying gentle heat on the stove if I get the strike water temp wrong. This is very difficult to do with a cooler.

-a.

 

[david_42]

Alf - Good examples of specific problems with specific equipment. Using my SS mash tun with a bazooka tube and the cooker burner, none of them would apply. If I'm using the big grain bag and the cooler, #3 applies.

Hot side effects occur as the wort is being heated, so by the time the boil starts, it's too late.

 

[Beer Snob]

The idea of separate mash & lauter tuns is relatively new. I can't think of a single advantage to doing this that can't be achieved using a manifold/false bottom/whatever in your mash tun. It's more work and as was pointed out, adds to the risk of hot-side effects. Certainly no pro operation uses two vessels.

I actually thought it was the other way around. How many times can you step in a cooler.... 2? Can you do 3 steps?

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Certainly no pro operation uses two vessels.

My experience has been the opposite in many breweries I've toured, and I always thought separate vessels were more traditional (but don't know why I thought that). Some breweries use separate vessels because it's difficult to impossible to combine a mash mixer (for mashing) with a mash rake (for lautering).

What I'm accustomed to seeing is mash tun, lauter tun, kettle, whirlpool, chiller, fermentor. I've seen the whirlpool executed in the kettle.

 

[david_42]

The Baron is correct, big operations almost always use a separate vessels. This is so they can start another mash immediately. Widmer is an example I should have remembered. Their main mash tun is 250 barrels, but they ferment in 750 & 1000 barrel tanks, so the mash tun is going 23 hours five days a week. Virtual tour This is a company with a 40 barrel pilot system!

Most breweries I've toured are in the 3-7 barrel range & only do one batch a day. Mashing & sparging in the same vessel saves work and space.

 

[budbo]

I can think of three advantages. Admittedly, I could probably get around them with some different equipment and some more care.

1. I get stuck sparges if I use flaked barley in the mash, and don't provide sufficient water to suspend the weight of the grain above the false bottom. If I were to mash in the lauter tun, I would either get a stuck sparge or would have to considerably dilute the sparge, neither of which I want.

2. The mash needs to be stirred well to ensure that there are no dry pockets of grain. With my flase bottom (which drains through a short piece of 3/8" copper pipe held in place by a rubber bung), the stirring dislodges the bung, so that when I start sparging, the wort ends up on the floor instead of in the kettle.

3. I can adjust the mash temperature by applying gentle heat on the stove if I get the strike water temp wrong. This is very difficult to do with a cooler.

-a.

I use a SS Mash/lauter tun and have experienced none of these issues. When stirring I just need to avoid the temp probe, Stuck sparges are prevented using rice hulls when using flaked barley, rice or wheat. The Kettle sits on my burner and if I do need to heat more, the dead space water buffers the grain from being scorched, if after I add grain it's too hot at the beginning I lose near nothing by draining from the dead space to add cooling water.

 

[ajf]

I use a SS Mash/lauter tun and have experienced none of these issues. When stirring I just need to avoid the temp probe, Stuck sparges are prevented using rice hulls when using flaked barley, rice or wheat. The Kettle sits on my burner and if I do need to heat more, the dead space water buffers the grain from being scorched, if after I add grain it's too hot at the beginning I lose near nothing by draining from the dead space to add cooling water.

I completely agree. One way of getting around those problems is to change the equipment. But the other way is to use what you have, and methods that work with it. One day, I may replace the rubber bung, but I see no reason to make any other equipment changes as I am very happy with my results, and the extra work is minimal.

-a.