Mashing for high fermentability

[RPh_Guy]

I can't say I've tried it personally but if you peruse some old English recipes (via Shut Up About Barclay Perkins) you'll see it a lot.

After looking at a few recipes I haven't found anything relevant except they seem to mash 146-153.

@Smellyglove
Have you used the technique you're suggesting, compared to adding all the malt at the beginning? Or can you link to more info about it?

Thanks guys!

 

[Yooper]

Is vinegar a common addition to lower mash PH? Or was this just used for testing purposes with no regard to drinkability ? I'm surprised at the quantity needed. Like 8 ml. Beer Smith calculated that I would need 100 ml phosphoric acid to drop my PH from 7 range to 5.4.

Does Beer Smith make PH acid addition adjustments when already using baking soda for other water conditioning reasons?

I forgot to calibrate my PH meter before first use so I'm unsure of accuracy but I recently mashed at a PH of 4.8. I did add 70 ml of phosphoric acid to the strike water with the intention of adjusting further during the mash. After measuring 4.8, I did not add the other planned 30 ml of acid.

Idon't think I experienced any conversion issues as my pre-boil gravity was close and into the fermenter was even closer with only .004 difference between measured and target gravity.

I read to expect a thinner mouth feel. Now I'm wondering about bitterness and effect on the yeast / attenuation. It is a heavily hopped DIPA.

If I'm very near to hitting my intended gravity, could there still be excess starches in the wort and finished beer to throw off flavor?

Beersmith's water calculator is, well, lacking. Please find another water calculator before doing anything extreme, because I've run some through the Beersmith's calculator and would never use it or recommend it.

 

[Dland]

Also, vinegar has a flavor as well as lowering pH, so unless you want to add that taste to beer flavor, best to use a more flavor neutral acid.

Never did put any in my beer, but drank enough of it back in the barrel hard cider days, lol, as they say.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Also, vinegar has a flavor as well as lowering pH, so unless you want to add that taste to beer flavor, best to use a more flavor neutral acid.

Vinegar is volatile, so it disappears during the boil.
People that use it say it doesn't contribute flavor.

 

[Qhrumphf]

After looking at a few recipes I haven't found anything relevant except they seem to mash 146-153.

Perhaps "see it a lot" was exaggerated, as I'm struggling to find an example as well. But I definitely saw it enough times to take notice, though perhaps rarer than I recalled. Threw me for a loop at first because I'd never seen it before. First mash step at 154, second at 148 or something to that effect (numbers pulled out of the air for the record).

 

[lowtones84]

Did I miss where people asked you what style you are brewing? I see some reason why you want the low FG, but it seems more practical than outcome derived.

If you're brewing a common brown or pale ale, perhaps a low FG beer would seem "thin and lifeless" but other styles would not. I have brewed saisons under the gravity of water (had to double check my eyes and hydrometer the first time that happened) that were anything but thin and lifeless. Is Dupont thin and lifeless? I've also brewed pretty standard bitters in the 1.006-8 range that were quite pleasant, drinkable, and not lifeless at all. They had wildly differing carbonation levels, too.

I actually believe a step mash can lead to a more fermentable wort if done properly. If you're using all well modified malt it might not be wise, but there is plenty of evidence showing that betas are working in the 130ish F range of a protein rest. Then continue on to around 145, then up a bit more...I do like the idea of adding a bit more malt to drop it back down too, I just have never done that personally. Commercial brewers of very successful, style guideline beers do things that homebrewers would scoff at.

Experiment with the ideas that you think are correct. "There's more than one way to skin a cat."

 

[RPh_Guy]

Did I miss where people asked you what style you are brewing?

Yep

I'm wanting a low FG so I can safely bottle after a few weeks mixed fermentation, and also add extra mixed cultures to various bottles.

It's an advanced technique to create funky sours able to be bottled quickly and still suitable for aging.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

There's an old method that involves not only adding more grain but dropping the mash temp as well. Mash higher to let alpha do the heavy lifting, and then add back grains with beta at beta friendly temps to make a HIGHLY fermentable wort.

It is an interesting concept since if you just mashed at 158F then dropped the temps, all the Beta would have been denatured.

I see some mash schedules where they mash low (148F?) then boost the mash temp (160F?) but I have not quite figured out the purpose of such a mash schedule.

 

[Qhrumphf]

It is an interesting concept since if you just mashed at 158F then dropped the temps, all the Beta would have been denatured.

I see some mash schedules where they mash low (148F?) then boost the mash temp (160F?) but I have not quite figured out the purpose of such a mash schedule.

It makes use of the strengths and limitations. Beta amylase works slowly, and snips off starch ends into maltose. But it can't get past the branch points. Alpha works faster and cleaves starches up fairly randomly, but IIRC can only break down larger carbohydrates, so it produces limited maltose or other simpler fermentable sugars. Step mashes allow a significant maltose production for a dry well attenuated finish while still leaving plenty of dextrins for body. You can't get the exact result with a single infusion.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Following up:
I only have one data point for each, but mashing at 148-150 had much better attenuation than 143-145, both before and after adding enzyme.

 

[bracconiere]

I know glucoamylase is an easy option but it feels like cheating.

and here i only feel like i lost, when i have to add sugar....as far as hotter temp? maybe you gel'd more of the starch? i get better efficiency doing a step mash at 150f, then 162f.... might be that barley starch doesn't all gel at beta temps.....

 

[brownni5]

I used to mash in a cooler - still do when I want to see motive efficiency over my BIAB system. Getting around to saying that while not easy, you can step mash in a cooler. To make Bud Light, I've heard that the first rest is at 140 for quite some time. With a boiling water infusion, you could then get that up into alpha amylase range. At least a couple online calculators can help with volume, including Green Bay Rackers.

For saisons, I usually just go something like 146 for 90 minutes. Is that doing it? I don't know, but it's what I do.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I know I can step mash (and I'm getting a RIMS soon, yay!), but does step mashing measurably increase fermentability? If it does, what particular mash schedule is best?

 

[doug293cz]

It makes use of the strengths and limitations. Beta amylase works slowly, and snips off starch ends into maltose. But it can't get past the branch points. Alpha works faster and cleaves starches up fairly randomly, but IIRC can only break down larger carbohydrates, so it produces limited maltose or other simpler fermentable sugars. Step mashes allow a significant maltose production for a dry well attenuated finish while still leaving plenty of dextrins for body. You can't get the exact result with a single infusion.

As I understand it, alpha amylase can cleave smaller polysaccharides, and eventually take a wort down to fermentable sugars and limit dextrins. But, from what I've read, alpha amylase is not as fast when working on smaller polysaccharides as larger ones.

I think the higher fermentability of wort mashed below 150 has a lot to do with limit dextrinase, which is an enzyme that will break the branch bonds in amylopectin (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Limit-Dextrinase.pdf). Limit dextrinase denatures at slightly lower temps than does beta amylase, so is active in mashes with a "beta rest," but may have little effect in a mash that starts at higher temps, as it is mostly denatured before any significant gelatinization takes place. By having what is really a "limit dextrinase rest" you reduce the amount of limit dextrins that will be in the final wort, and increase the amount of fermentable sugar.

Brew on

 

[RPh_Guy]

As I understand it, alpha amylase can cleave smaller polysaccharides, and eventually take a wort down to fermentable sugars and limit dextrins. But, from what I've read, alpha amylase is not as fast when working on smaller polysaccharides as larger ones.

I think the higher fermentability of wort mashed below 150 has a lot to do with limit dextrinase, which is an enzyme that will break the branch bonds in amylopectin (http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Limit-Dextrinase.pdf). Limit dextrinase denatures at slightly lower temps than does beta amylase, so is active in mashes with a "beta rest," but may have little effect in a mash that starts at higher temps, as it is mostly denatured before any significant gelatinization takes place. By having what is really a "limit dextrinase rest" you reduce the amount of limit dextrins that will be in the final wort, and increase the amount of fermentable sugar.

Brew on

Ok I'm a little intoxicated, but I think what you're saying is that a rest below ~130°F should increase fermentability? Is this just theoretical?

 

[bracconiere]

i'll start out with

and a quick google search of the gel temp of barley came up with this:

Barley starch from malted barley typically gelatinizes in the 138–145 °F (59–63 °C) range, but various studies have documented temperatures from 126–154 °F (52–68 °C).


from:

http://beerandwinejournal.com/starch-v/

so i would think, if it's not hot enough to gel the starch to bring it into solution, the enzymes won't be able to act on it?

 

[Soulshine2]

How can I maximize fermentability?
Single infusion is the easiest for my system (I mash in a cooler).

According to all the info I could find, 2 hours at 149-150°F seems optimal, with no crystal or specialty malts. Keep pH at the higher end, around 5.6.

Would step mashing make a huge difference?
I know glucoamylase is an easy option but it feels like cheating.

Thanks

lower mash temps, longer mash time.
I have to tell you , I used to single mash decoct and once I switched to a step mash , things started turning out better.

 

[RPh_Guy]

lower mash temps, longer mash time.
I have to tell you , I used to single mash decoct and once I switched to a step mash , things started turning out better.

What's temp(s) specifically?

I've made two attempts at highly fermentable wort, both mashed for 2 hours one at about 148-149 and one at about 143-145°F.

 

[Soulshine2]

Im sure it could be style specific but ive done steps like 122 for 15, 135 for 30, 149 to almost 154 for 30 depending and a high mashout / batch sparge of nearly 170.
Hardly ever am i short on numbers.

 

[RPh_Guy]

What schedule gives you the best attenuation?

 

[doug293cz]

i'll start out with

and a quick google search of the gel temp of barley came up with this:

Barley starch from malted barley typically gelatinizes in the 138–145 °F (59–63 °C) range, but various studies have documented temperatures from 126–154 °F (52–68 °C).


from:

http://beerandwinejournal.com/starch-v/

so i would think, if it's not hot enough to gel the starch to bring it into solution, the enzymes won't be able to act on it?

Correct, enzymes cannot act on ungelatinized starch. But remember, none of the temps for enzyme action, denaturing, or gelatinization are binary. Actions will occur below the specified temps, but will just be too slow to have much effect during typical mash times. Once you get above the specified temps, things start happening more quickly, and the hotter you get, the faster things happen. With enzymes you have a race going on between enzyme action and denaturing. As you heat up, you reach a point where enzymes are denaturing faster than they are acting, and that's when you are above the useful temp for that enzyme.

Brew on

 

[Soulshine2]

What schedule gives you the best attenuation?

Basically the one i listed. Its an insulated mash cooler tun and i just add 3 inches of water about 8 degrees warmer than i plan to mash at and add my grist, stir and rest and add more hotter water to hit the step temps and rest again and so on. Once ive reached my last step temp before transferring to the boil kettle, im usually out of boiling water in the strike kettle. Ill start the boil kettle and start my sparging until i hit preboil volume.

 

[Smellyglove]

Correct, enzymes cannot act on ungelatinized starch. But remember, none of the temps for enzyme action, denaturing, or gelatinization are binary. Actions will occur below the specified temps, but will just be too slow to have much effect during typical mash times. Once you get above the specified temps, things start happening more quickly, and the hotter you get, the faster things happen. With enzymes you have a race going on between enzyme action and denaturing. As you heat up, you reach a point where enzymes are denaturing faster than they are acting, and that's when you are above the useful temp for that enzyme.

Brew on

Great post. Good and relevant information packed into as few words as possible.

 

[doug293cz]

Ok I'm a little intoxicated, but I think what you're saying is that a rest below ~130°F should increase fermentability? Is this just theoretical?

You won't get much gelatinization at 130°(ref), and no gelatinization means no enzyme action. I would say a step temp of 145°F (62.5°-63°C) would be a good place to start.

Brew on

 

[cactusgarrett]

What schedule gives you the best attenuation?

As with most everything else homebrew related - it varies - but FWIW I usually do the Hochkurz schedule without the mashout.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Infusion_Mashing

 

[Smellyglove]

You won't get much gelatinization at 130°(ref), and no gelatinization means no enzyme action. I would say a step temp of 145°F (62.5°-63°C) would be a good place to start.

Brew on

Just to correct a smidge. You still have enzymes working in that temperature area, it's just not enzymes that break down starches to sugars, the diastatic enzymes. You still have the proteolytic enzymes, Proteinase and Peptidase. They also work to achieve "something", they break down proteins. Use steps for these enzymes when appropriate.

 

[RPh_Guy]

As with most everything else homebrew related - it varies - but FWIW I usually do the Hochkurz schedule without the mashout.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Infusion_Mashing

Cool, Kai says this:

"The first rest (maltose rest) should be held at or around 63C (145F) and it’s length is used to control the fermentability of the wort. A good starting point for its duration is 30 min. Longer for more fermentable wort and shorter for less fermentable wort. If even higher fermentability is desired an intermediate rest at 65C (150F) can be added."

So now I'm wondering what length of these 145 and 150 steps would be best. Perhaps 90 and 30 minutes respectively?

 

[doug293cz]

Just to correct a smidge. You still have enzymes working in that temperature area, it's just not enzymes that break down starches to sugars, the diastatic enzymes. You still have the proteolytic enzymes, Proteinase and Peptidase. They also work to achieve "something", they break down proteins. Use steps for these enzymes when appropriate.

Correct. There is more than just starch chemistry going on in the mash. I tend to concentrate on the starch chemistry.

Brew on

 

[Smellyglove]

Correct. There is more than just starch chemistry going on in the mash. I tend to concentrate on the starch chemistry.

Brew on

Didn't catch who I answered. It was mostly for future readers.

 

[Smellyglove]

Cool, Kai says this:

"The first rest (maltose rest) should be held at or around 63C (145F) and it’s length is used to control the fermentability of the wort. A good starting point for its duration is 30 min. Longer for more fermentable wort and shorter for less fermentable wort. If even higher fermentability is desired an intermediate rest at 65C (150F) can be added."

So now I'm wondering what length of these 145 and 150 steps would be best. Perhaps 90 and 30 minutes respectively?

He's most probably talking about a Hochkurz mash. What do you want to achieve? Lower temperature yields a higher fermentable wort, but you need to hold it for a long time since enzymes work slower at lower temperatures, and they do also denature over time, even at lower temperatures. And not all of the potential starches become soluble at lower temperature. If you want to do it simple within a pretty "normal" timeframe, just hold 65C, it's most efficient. If you want high attenuation and efficiency you should step through the limit dextrinase area, low sacc area, higher sacc, then mashout. This takes time.