Mashing Bananas

[wendelgee2]

Hey folks.
SWMBO wants a banana milk stout, and honestly, I'm excited to try brewing with an unconventional ingredient.

So. What do you think the best process would be for mashing bananas?
The thread on doing a grocery store beer mentions that bananas are self-mashing via a-amylase at around 100F. But, it also says that b-amylase is more present in very ripe bananas, and I assume that requires a higher temp to activate (if it operates in bananas the same as it does in barley). The other option would be to do a no sparge mash and let the wort (and all of the active enzymes) lauter out onto the banana sludge. Then: everything into the kettle.

Also, anyone worked with bananas and have any idea how many pounds would be good?

What are you so happy for?

You're going in the pot, fool!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Personally, I'd choose a yeast known for kicking out the Bananna and exploit that.

Do you plan to add any Pectin enzyme?

 

[wendelgee2]

Personally, I'd choose a yeast known for kicking out the Bananna and exploit that.

Do you plan to add any Pectin enzyme?

You mean instead of adding bananas? Where's the fun in that??

Oh crap...if I boil the bananas the pectin will set. But, if I mash at 98.6 and then add to the secondary, that should keep it below the temp that pectin sets at, right?

 

[mkling]

Personally, if I were going to do this, I'd treat the bananas just like any other fruit. First, make sure they are ripe & sweet before adding -- if they taste really sweet, then the starches are already converted to sugars, no need for mashing. Then, I'd wait til primary fermentation was done, mash up the bananas, & add the bananas to secondary. Doing it any other time is going to cook off the banana flavor.

Pick up a fresh banana, eat it. Boil a banana in a little water for 15 minutes, eat it. Tell me which has better banana flavor.

 

[wendelgee2]

Personally, if I were going to do this, I'd treat the bananas just like any other fruit. First, make sure they are ripe & sweet before adding -- if they taste really sweet, then the starches are already converted to sugars, no need for mashing. Then, I'd wait til primary fermentation was done, mash up the bananas, & add the bananas to secondary. Doing it any other time is going to cook off the banana flavor.

Pick up a fresh banana, eat it. Boil a banana in a little water for 15 minutes, eat it. Tell me which has better banana flavor.

Clearly this is right.

 

[MarsColonist]

Done did that. Banana pulp did not settle, and it was quite acidic. I used 5lbs or about 20 bananas in the secondary.

When I get around to doing it again, I would do a pitch of your stout yeast for 24 hrs at the appropriate temp, then pitch some hefe yeast and jack the temp up to mid 70's

 

[MarsColonist]

Also, maybe try some unsweetened dehydrated banana chips in the boil.

 

[wendelgee2]

1) Why would it be acidic? There's not really anything acidic about bananas, unless you used ones that weren't incredibly ripe, in which case it might be tannic astringency that you're noticing???

2) I'll probably blend them into a mush, rather than chop. And if the pulp floats I'll just rack under it.

3) So, how did this monstrosity taste? Did the bananas seem to ferment or did they just float there?

 

[MarsColonist]

It tasted alright, but the floating banana "threads" were unappealing to me.. a friends SWMBO loved it.

As far as the acidity goes.. maybe it was astringency... I didnt like it.

They seemed to ferment just fine.. Id wait till you were only a few point shy of FG; I put mine too early and it fermented pretty well and I lost a fair amount of aroma. Even sliced, they fermented pretty well... was fairly mushy in the end (and brown).

Taste was okay... not the flavor I was looking for, but not bad either.. I need to do a second trial, but I have SOOOO many other beers (at least 10) in the pipeline to make. At 2-3 10 gal batches a month, likely wont get to it till this summer.

 

[sonetlumiere85]

FWIW, LD carlson also packages a banana extract in liquid form. I also second the banana yeast character. Wyeast 1028 London Ale/ White labs london ale kick out a lot of banana esters when they ferment around 72. Like, a lot a lot.

 

[pDubbel]

I do a Chocolate-Banana Dunkelweizen for Christmas every year and I've discovered a few things with using both chocolate and banana.

Mashing bananas imparts a slight banana flavor to the pre-boil mash but is driven off during the boil. I have heard argued before on other forums that bananas can increase head retention if mashed, my experiences haven't shown any significant difference. If you are going to mash I have two suggestions: one, make sure to account of the water absorption of the bananas which is significant, and two, slice the bananas and put them on top of your grain bed instead of mashing\mixing them to avoid a stuck mash. Trust me, those things will turn your mash into a gum ball.

Throwing a couple pounds of bananas into secondary is a better idea to impart a natural banana flavor/aroma though again I have only noticed a very slight flavor imparted. I recommend making sure the bananas are nice and brown before adding them. One idea I have had but have yet to experiment with is using skinned banana peelings to increase aroma. It is my theory that this will impart more aroma than the actual banana meat. I've done three batches of this beer with each year being a little different and all three years I've resorted to using banana extract to impart the flavor I wanted into the beer. Typically 2-3 bottles of extract during bottling\kegging per 5 gal batch have worked for me. Make sure you use the alcohol based extracts and not the oil based.

As for the chocolate, make sure there is enough residual sweetness in the beer otherwise chocolate ends up tasting more earthy and bitter. Use a large portion of caramel malt (crystal 60-80) in your grain bill, mash high, and if you intend on making this a desert beer like I do, feel free to throw in some lactose to sweeten it up. I typically use 8-12oz of lactose per a batch, but I am also aiming for something along the lines of a Dunkelweizen that tastes more like a Young's Double Chocolate Stout. Lastly be wary of chocolate malt, remember that a little goes a long way and can very easily over power everything else in the batch.

Getting the flavors balanced in this recipe has been a challenge every year and I have yet to nail it the way I want. Good luck and happy brewing!

 

[Cheesy_Goodness]

In case the OP hasn't come across this thread yet...https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/bananas-foster-creamy-ale-all-grain-pic-intensive-291125/

one8tvw added his bananas to the secondary, but ran them through a blender and made a puree with rum. I believe there's some conversation on there about mashing as well but I've not read through the whole thread.

Just a thought.

 

[ten80]

I've brewed with bananas making up to 75% of my grain bill with 20-40% 2-row and the rest toasted oatmeal. A long boil removes only the really phenolic, estery banana flavors (think laffy taffy), but there is enough banana in my grain bill that a very smooth and mellow banana flavor is left behind.

There are some great ideas in the banana wine thread

If you aren't doing it already, try ripening your bananas till they are nearly completely brown. This is easy if you put them in a plastic bag stored somewhere warm. Freeze them to further break down the cell walls and release more flavor compounds and sugars. The peels have a lot of flavor and also contain amylase enzymes that will help you achieve complete fermentation of the banana starches.

Stuck sparges are tricky, but I've had luck adding LARGE amounts (~10-15%) of rice hulls to my grain bill. You can also steep bananas separate from the grains in a spaghetti pot using a mesh bag. You can squeeze the hell out of the bag to get the maximum amount of wort. I've found that I actually GAIN liquid from the bananas and have to take this into account with my grain mash volume. 60 min at 150 f should convert all the sugars and do a fairly good job of pasteurizing the banana wort (though mash-out to 180f would be even safer).

 

[elkshadow]

Sounds like there are some experts here but I'll put my two cents in. I know from making banana bread that if you microwave bananas for 5 minutes or so and strain them they give off a lot of liquid which is very tasty and very sweet. When making bread I reduce this liquid on the stovetop and add it back to the batter for a concentrated banana flavor. I get about a cup of liquid per 5 bananas.

If you didn't want to mess with the pulp you could just add this liquid to the kettle or primary. I don't know if the banana taste would ferment out with the sugar in the liquid but I'd be interested to know if it did.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Sounds like there are some experts here but I'll put my two cents in. I know from making banana bread that if you microwave bananas for 5 minutes or so and strain them they give off a lot of liquid which is very tasty and very sweet. When making bread I reduce this liquid on the stovetop and add it back to the batter for a concentrated banana flavor. I get about a cup of liquid per 5 bananas.

If you didn't want to mess with the pulp you could just add this liquid to the kettle or primary. I don't know if the banana taste would ferment out with the sugar in the liquid but I'd be interested to know if it did.

Ive never heard of that but its an interesting approach. I'd take a gravity reading of that liquid to see what your actually getting from the bananas and adding into the beer. Would love to hear feedback if someone actually tries this.